Race Team Alliance Appreciation Thread

Old 97

Old 97

Team Owner
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
1,269
Points
343
According to Kenny Wallace (on information he received), things are getting heated between NASCAR and the owners union.
Is this the weekend that it blows up?
If there is a press conference, is it going to be one sided or will both entities voice their opinions?
A lot of interesting stuff going on in the background.
 
theres a press conference scheduled this weekend? I havent seen that posted anywhere. But I also havent done a good job of looking for it
 
aunty dive said:
Assuming the most recent sale to Gainbridge / Spire at $ 40 Million is accurate, the total current value of all 36 Charters is $1.44 Billion.

Nobody is walking away from that.
Click to expand...
As much as I would enjoy on some level seeing the brass at NASCAR being forced to scramble ancient Gen 4 steel body ARCA cars to fill a Daytona 500 field, I don't see how that would benefit the sport or the fans. I hope cooler heads prevail.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
theres a press conference scheduled this weekend? I havent seen that posted anywhere. But I also havent done a good job of looking for it
Click to expand...
Not that I've heard.
Wallace hints at it in his YouTube video.
 
This is not going to be an easy agreement. NASCAR wants to do away with the charter system, and reportedly was willing to phase it out over a period of years (number unknown). Imagine seeing your most valuable asset given an immediate depreciation schedule that ends at ZERO! If that’s based on a 10 or even 15 year countdown, your race team’s value is sinking quickly. No wonder Stewart Hass has been rumored to sell some or all of their charters.
 
Conover said:
This is not going to be an easy agreement. NASCAR wants to do away with the charter system, and reportedly was willing to phase it out over a period of years (number unknown). Imagine seeing your most valuable asset given an immediate depreciation schedule that ends at ZERO! If that’s based on a 10 or even 15 year countdown, your race team’s value is sinking quickly. No wonder Stewart Hass has been rumored to sell some or all of their charters.
Click to expand...
I haven't read one genuine article about Nascar wanting to do away with the charter system. If there are any out there please post them up.
 
StandOnIt said:
I haven't read one genuine article about Nascar wanting to do away with the charter system. If there are any out there please post them up.
Click to expand...
This article via the AP cites the position by NASCAR as understood by the race teams trying to negotiate with them.
https://apnews.com/article/nascar-owners-boycott-40d028af65c240c835176476344391a3
Quote from article:
“The charters are both renewable — the current ones expire at the end of the 2024 season — and revocable by NASCAR if a team fails to perform over a predetermined length of time. The race teams want the charters to become permanent, and NASCAR apparently is unwilling to even discuss the issue.”

Now that the charter agreement has been allowed to expire following this season, it puts a lot of question marks on everything…not just being able to own their charters (and sell them if so desired). Team owners also want more percentage of revenue from the new TV contract. I’m sure NASCAR feels their number is too high, especially if allowed to permanently own their charter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdj
Conover said:
This article via the AP cites the position by NASCAR as understood by the race teams trying to negotiate with them.
https://apnews.com/article/nascar-owners-boycott-40d028af65c240c835176476344391a3
Quote from article:
“The charters are both renewable — the current ones expire at the end of the 2024 season — and revocable by NASCAR if a team fails to perform over a predetermined length of time. The race teams want the charters to become permanent, and NASCAR apparently is unwilling to even discuss the issue.”

Now that the charter agreement has been allowed to expire following this season, it puts a lot of question marks on everything…not just being able to own their charters (and sell them if so desired). Team owners also want more percentage of revenue from the new TV contract. I’m sure NASCAR feels their number is too high, especially if allowed to permanently own their charter.
Click to expand...
This was a year ago. And charters are still being sold for millions. Does that sound like there is a charter problem?
 
StandOnIt said:
This was a year ago. And charters are still being sold for millions. Does that sound like there is a charter problem?
Click to expand...
Doesn’t matter the age…the issues were the same then as they are now. Look, nobody is going to outright publish any details while this is being hammered around. All we know is one charter was sold in the off-season for $40M. Supply and demand at that time. If NASCAR ultimately kills the charter system, there are none to sell. It’s all about $$$ on both sides.
 
Conover said:
Doesn’t matter the age…the issues were the same then as they are now. Look, nobody is going to outright publish any details while this is being hammered around. All we know is one charter was sold in the off-season for $40M. Supply and demand at that time. If NASCAR ultimately kills the charter system, there are none to sell. It’s all about $$$ on both sides.
Click to expand...
Again, there is nothing saying Nascar wants to kill the charter system but your imagination. Wake the hell up.

 
StandOnIt said:
Again, there is nothing saying Nascar wants to kill the charter system but your imagination. Wake the hell up.

Click to expand...

What any of us know is almost nothing, since all anyone says is corporate speak, which is understandable. You sense no issues, I sense concern. Kenny Wallace, who is far more connected than any of us, says there are serious issues with the charter negotiations. I’ll take that as legit.
 
Conover said:
What any of us know is almost nothing, since all anyone says is corporate speak, which is understandable. You sense no issues, I sense concern. Kenny Wallace, who is far more connected than any of us, says there are serious issues with the charter negotiations. I’ll take that as legit.
Click to expand...
That doesn't say a thing about the nonsense of removing them, the 36 slot cut off, nothing. Don't put words in my mouth, there are issues but it isn't the removal B.S. some are saying.
 
StandOnIt said:
That doesn't say a thing about the nonsense of removing them, the 36 slot cut off, nothing. Don't put words in my mouth, there are issues but it isn't the removal B.S. some are saying.
Click to expand...
Oh really…tell us all how you KNOW that NASCAR doesn’t want to discontinue the charter ownership system? Prove to us how that is BS.
 
Conover said:
Oh really…tell us all how you KNOW that NASCAR doesn’t want to discontinue the charter ownership system? Prove to us how that is BS.
Click to expand...
see post 15. I'll take Kez's word for it a driver and team owner over crazy Kenny. That isn't the only time I heard Kez explaining things, it was the handiest one. You go ahead with your conspiracy theories.
 
Drama, drama, drama...how would we survive each day without it. Personally I could give a flip about the RTA, NASCAR, in my opinion, leads the band and the teams and drivers just march in the parade. Everything will be settled before the 500 next year.
 
I’m not sure what benefit NASCAR would receive from rescinding charters.
 
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

Sources: NASCAR offers seven years for new charter deal, concurrent to media agreements

NASCAR is offering to extend the charter system for seven years concurrent to its new media rights agreement as teams fight for something closer to a permanent status for their version of franchises. Sources say NASCAR’s offer is to extend the system from 2025 through 2031.
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

Sources: NASCAR offers seven years for new charter deal, concurrent to media agreements​

BY ADAM STERN2.24.2024

NASCAR is offering to extend the charter system for seven years concurrent to its new media rights agreement, according to four sources familiar with the talks, as teams fight for something closer to a permanent status for their version of franchises. Sources say NASCAR’s offer is to extend the system from 2025 through 2031. Teams want the system locked into NASCAR’s rules in perpetuity, along with getting additional guaranteed media revenue. As a middle ground, teams are open to something resembling an “evergreen” status where they keep the charter permanently as long as they meet a list of requirements that would be agreed on with NASCAR, such as running every race. NASCAR and the RTA had no comment on the specific terms being discussed when contacted.

Last weekend at Daytona, NASCAR declined to show up to a Race Team Alliance meeting to discuss a new deal, while teams revealed they had retained antitrust lawyer Jeffrey Kessler. The original charter agreement was negotiated in 2015, the first year of NASCAR’s current 10-year media rights agreement that expires after 2024. It was designed to give teams a form of enterprise value they never had. While charters are essentially like franchises, NASCAR is noticeably different from major stick-and-ball leagues in that teams have no equity in the league itself and are instead independent contractors. Still, teams believe making their charters permanent should be a natural next step of the sport operating more like a league. Charters have increased 11-fold in value since the system began. The most recent one was sold by Live Fast Motorsports to Spire Motorsports for slightly less than $40M. Many of NASCAR’s team owners are in their 70s and 80s, and at least some of them believe this is their chance to lock in enterprise value that can last for their family through generations, sources say.
Click to expand...

Here's the last thing I see from any source regarding the status of charters and negotiations. NASCAR is now offering to extend them through the life of the media deal, while team owners aren't interested in kicking the can down the road another 5-6 years and want permanence now. I would suggest one of the obvious implications of this is that many team owners see there being opportunities to sell their "franchises" and cash out, which is simply not a thing that has ever been an option before.
 
StandOnIt said:
Again, there is nothing saying Nascar wants to kill the charter system but your imagination. Wake the hell up.
Click to expand...
This is the genesis of that statement:
theathletic.com

NASCAR team owners skip meeting over stalled negotiations

According to several parties on both sides of the negotiations, teams and NASCAR have disagreed on making the charter system permanent.
theathletic.com theathletic.com

Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi are well regarded and connected motorsports journalists and I have no reason to believe they made this article up. NASCAR has also had sufficient opportunities in the literal year since it was published to argue contrary to what was stated and did not, nor did anyone last year come out to say that this was inaccurate. Then you have this, which comes out hot on it's heels. You tell me if Denny Hamlin, co-owner of a chartered Cup team, sounds like someone who was thinking at the time that charters were being retained when he's openly discussing them being "lame duck charters" in 2024.



Does that mean this is still the case in negotiations now? Clearly NASCAR has budged some and is expecting the teams to budge as well. The teams simply aren't budging nearly to the same degree because they see NASCAR as being fundamentally incapable of putting on a show without them. And honestly, they're right!
 
virtualbalboa said:
This is the genesis of that statement:
theathletic.com

NASCAR team owners skip meeting over stalled negotiations

According to several parties on both sides of the negotiations, teams and NASCAR have disagreed on making the charter system permanent.
theathletic.com theathletic.com

Jeff Gluck and Jordan Bianchi are well regarded and connected motorsports journalists and I have no reason to believe they made this article up. NASCAR has also had sufficient opportunities in the literal year since it was published to argue contrary to what was stated and did not, nor did anyone last year come out to say that this was inaccurate. Then you have this, which comes out hot on it's heels. You tell me if Denny Hamlin, co-owner of a chartered Cup team, sounds like someone who was thinking at the time that charters were being retained when he's openly discussing them being "lame duck charters" in 2024.



Does that mean this is still the case in negotiations now? Clearly NASCAR has budged some and is expecting the teams to budge as well. The teams simply aren't budging nearly to the same degree because they see NASCAR as being fundamentally incapable of putting on a show without them. And honestly, they're right!
Click to expand...

That is your opinion on Gluck. I have found him to be mostly biased, opinionated and all about the click bait. He isn't affiliated with any news organization but his own.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is your opinion on Gluck. I have found him to be mostly biased, opinionated and all about the click bait. He isn't affiliated with any news organization but his own.
Click to expand...
Whether or not you want to shoot the messenger, the fact of the matter is that article was cited many times by other news sources (probably because it was in fact well sourced) and there's video within a week of the article's publication of a team owner essentially confirming the article's depiction of the situation.

I went back to look at old posts because I recalled having arguments with you in the past about this, and I know your position has been that NASCAR will never make the charters permanent and give teams that level of power. I just want to remind you that it is not 1969 anymore: they aren't beefing with the drivers but instead the team owners. On top of that, unlike breaking the driver's union in 1969 at Talladega, in 2025 all their events are televised live (that race was not televised at all) and NASCAR and its tracks generate revenue from the sale of media rights to major distribution networks. There basically aren't 40 functional ARCA cars to replace the Cup teams with if this keeps up, nor would their media partners find that a sufficient replacement.

The best I can see are charter agreements being pushed out as "not permanent" but lasting for some insanely long period of time that might as well be permanence like 99 years or something like that to allow Jim France to save face.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is your opinion on Gluck. I have found him to be mostly biased, opinionated and all about the click bait. He isn't affiliated with any news organization but his own.
Click to expand...
Jeff Gluck sometimes reads the drivel posted on here and has literally commented a few times, and this is what you have to offer? LOL
 
virtualbalboa said:
Whether or not you want to shoot the messenger, the fact of the matter is that article was cited many times by other news sources (probably because it was in fact well sourced) and there's video within a week of the article's publication of a team owner essentially confirming the article's depiction of the situation.

I went back to look at old posts because I recalled having arguments with you in the past about this, and I know your position has been that NASCAR will never make the charters permanent and give teams that level of power. I just want to remind you that it is not 1969 anymore: they aren't beefing with the drivers but instead the team owners. On top of that, unlike breaking the driver's union in 1969 at Talladega, in 2025 all their events are televised live (that race was not televised at all) and NASCAR and its tracks generate revenue from the sale of media rights to major distribution networks. There basically aren't 40 functional ARCA cars to replace the Cup teams with if this keeps up, nor would their media partners find that a sufficient replacement.

The best I can see are charter agreements being pushed out as "not permanent" but lasting for some insanely long period of time that might as well be permanence like 99 years or something like that to allow Jim France to save face.
Click to expand...
That's my opinion. I would be concerned if the RTA was saying Nascar wanted a cut from the charters and that Nascasr was going to somehow take away what they have already given. Personally I agree with their "right" to take them away IF a low bottom team isn't improving, but so far almost all of those teams have sold out on their own for good profits. As a result the competition has improved with new blood coming into the sport.

I don't miss these teams, but of interest is who bought them
1712506889998.png
 
StandOnIt said:
That's my opinion. I would be concerned if the RTA was saying Nascar wanted a cut from the charters and that Nascasr was going to somehow take away what they have already given. Personally I agree with their "right" to take them away IF a low bottom team isn't improving, but so far almost all of those teams have sold out on their own for good profits. As a result the competition has improved with new blood coming into the sport.
Click to expand...
I mean, that was the dictum from NASCAR at one point as evidenced by all the stuff from last April that I've posted, which is a pretty bad way to start negotiations in good faith. You can argue that NASCAR wasn't actually taking anything away if they were simply choosing to not include charters in the next agreement with RTA, but we both know that is a distinction without a difference.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I mean, that was the dictum from NASCAR at one point as evidenced by all the stuff from last April that I've posted, which is a pretty bad way to start negotiations in good faith. You can argue that NASCAR wasn't actually taking anything away if they were simply choosing to not include charters in the next agreement with RTA, but we both know that is a distinction without a difference.
Click to expand...
If that was true, which I doubt seriously, because none of who I call major players have said a thing about it. That would include Hendrick, RFK, Childress, JGR, 23XI even the smaller teams like Front row....not a peep. Sorry Hamlin doesn't count. I go by these people, they are the pillars of the sport.
 
StandOnIt said:
If that was true, which I doubt seriously, because none of who I call major players have said a thing about it. That would include Hendrick, RFK, Childress, JGR, 23XI even the smaller teams like Front row....not a peep. Sorry Hamlin doesn't count. I go by these people, they are the pillars of the sport.
Click to expand...
Where do you think Gluck and Bianchi got this info from? Also, if you don't think those are the entities who are using journalists and the likes of Kenny Wallace from telling their side, how is it that Kenny Wallace was able to affirmatively say Hamlin was upset over the media rights split in the RTA/NASCAR negotiations before Hamlin admitted it?
 
virtualbalboa said:
Where do you think Gluck and Bianchi got this info from? Also, if you don't think those are the entities who are using journalists and the likes of Kenny Wallace from telling their side, how is it that Kenny Wallace was able to affirmatively say Hamlin was upset over the media rights split in the RTA/NASCAR negotiations before Hamlin admitted it?
Click to expand...
Sorry man, I can't take Kenny Wallace serious OR Hamlin.
 
The issue is TV money.

The RTA wants some of the 65% currently paid to track operators. NASCAR is one of those.

Threatening the existence of $1.44 Billion worth of other people’s assets is an interesting bargaining ploy, to say the least.
 
StandOnIt said:
Sorry man, I can't take Kenny Wallace serious OR Hamlin.
Click to expand...
OK, well, let me know when someone from the RTA goes out to say "Hamlin is wrong" since if he is, then he's torpedoing their negotiations.
 
aunty dive said:
The issue is TV money.

The RTA wants some of the 65% currently paid to track operators. NASCAR is one of those.

Threatening the existence of $1.44 Billion worth of other people’s assets is an interesting bargaining ploy, to say the least.
Click to expand...
If that is so, the offer stands for an extension tied to the length of the TV deal. I think a bigger cut of the pie is the main focus of the RTA and that has been stated by the major players in the sport along with taking a swing at cuts in expenses.
 
aunty dive said:
Team franchises in other pro sports are not time-limited.

The millionaire / billionaire owners in NASCAR won’t settle for that.
Click to expand...
Nope, and there is no reason they should IMO. As it is, they have accomplished what is similar to F-1 and they might even have veto power to transactions with who gets to buy the charters from the teams that want to sell out. It is their wholly owned ball game. The others are players and so far nobody is talking about taking their show on the road. Hamlin can screw himself into the ground but he makes no difference.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom