Rate the Cup race - Phoenix 2

Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by Charlie Spencer, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. LewTheShoe

    LewTheShoe Team Owner

    7.5 -- I saw braking, guys searching for mid-corner grip, and accelerating off the corners. So that made it one of the best races of the year to me. OK, one car was best, but there was a lot on the line with six guys fighting for two championship slots.

    LOL.

    I can imagine this crowd rating races (in real time) from the 1970's and 80's and 90's. It would have been a bloodbath of low ratings for most of those races... if the internet and social media had existed back in the day.
     
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  2. Pat

    Pat Team Owner

    On the excitement gauge - 6.
     
  3. Ventisca

    Ventisca Team Owner

  4. KodiakRusty89

    KodiakRusty89 Team Owner

    I grew up watching races in the 80's and 90's. What made those races interesting when there were 3-4 cars on the lead lap and guys were just logging laps was attrition. You knew at any moment basically everyone out there was subject to a mechanical failure. What made it "less random" is certain teams struggled with different issues. When Rudd ran for Bernstein poor old Ricky could be dominating but you at any moment the engine could grenade. Earnhardt's stuff was usually bullet proof. Very few people could match his consistency. There was also a lot more valuables with pit crews and strategy. Harry Gant was a fuel mileage master. There were some tracks were they rarely changed 4 tires. They might change the rights three or four times and the lefts once.
     
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  5. RacerrecaR

    RacerrecaR Orange cone

    The track design is fine. The aero/horsepower/tire package is not.

    2
     
  6. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    10. TRD 1-2. Three too Homestead. Manufacturers Champions. Outstanding. The bitching is white noise.
     
  7. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    You are the most direct poster here. You are at 7.5, and "NASCAR Nation" is trashing this event. What are they missing? I am tired of trying to explain how to watch this sport to those who constantly bitch. I am so damn biased, nobody would listen anyway. Legit......I enjoyed the race, and then listen to the radio, and come here....and nothing but BS. Explain to them what you are thinking with a 7.5 because many are not getting it, and I think it is tearing the sport apart. Gluck does his ******* poll. Says it isn't scientific, but then presents the results as if it is. Such bull****. He would be laughed out of any research group. Seriously man, I encourage you to start a thread discussing how and why you see things differently. I would do it, but as I mentioned, my bias would get me laughed out of here. We disagree on just about everything, but we agree on the fact that there is a reason to watch. Let's discuss it please.
     
  8. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    Somebody needs to write a book on Nascar fandom? :D We have some that think we need to replace the safer barriers with guard rails and when drivers and spectators die it's the way it needs to be all the way to every square inch of the track needs to be covered with others. It is that way with every issue. I'm just one voice of many, some agree with some of what I post, others don't believe a thing I post. I believe the coverage of our sport is pretty pathetic. They have one self proclaimed reporter behind a pay wall and another who appears to be paid by Nascar. The others write nice personal drivers stories. Recently Toyota has made some huge moves and consolidated their influence on having 4 sharp knifes in the drawer instead of more support spread thinner like the other two OEM's old style do and I haven't read a word from any source commenting on that fact or doing any research on that. Now they have three cars in the finals and still silence. Will the other OEM's follow suit? Anybody interviewing the owners about the changing climate of Nascar and motorsports in general?
     
  9. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Yeah, I was talking more about the fandom refraining from tearing the sport down. Find the good. Turning the convo back to MY Toyotas......Everybody had a shot to get onboard back in 2007/2008....one team bit.....the rest laughed. They aren't laughing anymore. This has become the business model for TRD and Toyota--it didn't start that way....and you know that I have been anticipating another team for some time. I think that went out the door with the next gen car. Everything is kind of frozen.....except Chevy's new car--again....Interesting why this doesn't piss more people off. NASCAR is not approving parts next year, but a new car is okay? Geez. I know that your rant about how horrid this is is coming. I am waiting.
     
  10. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    There have been posts about finding something you like about Nascar. In comparison the threads complaining about everything under the sun are much longer :D. I don't consider this board to be the end all voice of the majority of fandom, but there are some pretty sharp characters. Some are driver focused and they know everything about a certain driver, some have vast general knowledge of the sport, some are statisticians and those types keep me coming back. On the other hand there are some that look for anything to complain about and a public social media forum gives them a voice. I watch a lot of YouTube channels. They are about the only social media that gives the content creator the ability to block out the sick goofs posts that lurk around in our society. Even with that feature, some creators have had to have some of the sicko's stalkers etc, arrested. Compared to that, this place is in so much better shape.
     
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  11. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Just watched the replay of Phoenix 2. I repeat....I have no clue what people are looking for in a race. NASCAR is shooting darts in the dark on this. It's insane. That was a fabulous race.
     
  12. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    OK, I'll bite. I want passing and lots of it. I want multiple cars in contention. I want comers and goers. I want drivers to have to search around and find a groove that works for them. I want the white flag to come out and not be totally sure who is going to win the race. I want some unpredictability. I want a great driver in an OK car to be able to beat a great car with an OK driver. I don't want fake ones, but I actually like a caution every once in a while. I don't want anybody to get hurt, but some torn up sheet metal is OK with me. I like to see some mechanical failures too, although please not ALL of them to MY car :eek:.
     
  13. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    I want a tire that drops off, forcing drivers to decide how to manage that wear. I want cars that can't be driven wide-open through the turns, and turns that require braking or at least lifting. I want most of what @Formerjackman wants, and I'm willing to sacrifice 20 mph to get it.
     
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  14. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    People don't like Gibbs dude. I agree with you to an extent but even myself was tired of the Hendrick dominance back in 2007. Everybody hates a winner.
     
  15. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    I think that this is a problem with NASCAR Nation.....Differentiating between a great race and a bad one, and the influence that bias has on that perception. Right with you on this.
     
  16. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Honest question.....You want all of this in every race? Thank you for your response.
     
  17. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    Uh, aren't you the same guy who explicitly bases his race ratings on how well the Toyota drivers finish? For example, see your post #46 above.

    I don't have a problem with how anyone rates a race; it's purely subjective. But how is that any different from 'bias influencing perception' you're complaining about?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  18. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Yeah, I would hope that my ratings have been seen as tongue and cheek, but maybe not--this place gets so damn serious at times. My apologies for leading you astray. In this context, however, the only races that I would rate lower than a 10 (all bias aside).....are rain shortened events. Nobody's fault, it just sucks. My bias is extreme, but probably not too far away from some who attempt to post objectively, but fail because of the bias that they posses, but hide in the name of objectivity. I think EVERY race is an absolute spectacle. Each one has its own story. I do not have a list of requirements to satisfy my needs (except the rain stuff). I love a race where the car is so good that a driver dominates. I like a bunch of guys in the mix too. I like all of it. I do not watch or go to a race to be objective, but at the same time my assessment of the use of my time and/or the expense that I incur going to a race is not dependent upon whether or not MY Toyotas win. Now, don't get me wrong, winning is my hope, and when it happens, it is unlike any feeling I have ever known in sport....but I don't walk away from the TV or get on a plane home, and bitch because of the "the package", or whatever. Ever. Not once. I will throw this in here too.....I believe that when opinions are expressed as statements of fact, some bite, and it spreads the bull**** attitude about this sport. I do have a problem with Jeff Gluck's "Good or Bad" rating after each race---but I love Gluck. He has openly acknowledged that his ranking is not scientific, yet I have heard him talk about it, and I have seen it used here to substantiate some kind of quantitative proof that a race was bad. This damages the perception of our sport, and really in this day of everything on the Internet being true, spreads an unjustifiable negativity that is tearing this sport apart....and I fear is forcing the hand of the sanctioning body to make decisions that it wouldn't make in a non-Internet world.
     
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  19. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    Amen, brother, if you hadn't beat me to it, I would have said the exact same thing. I'm not saying I succeed 100%, but personally I try VERY HARD to view this stuff with a totally unbiased eye and I try very hard to not let my personal pleasure or displeasure as a fan of certain teams or drivers influence my overall opinion of events. I am as big of a fan of HMS as Rev is of TRD, but I'll be the FIRST guy to call them out when they screw up or underachieve. I believe in truth and honesty first last and always, even when it really hurts.
     
  20. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    I hear you man, see Post #58. Why is it so damn important to view this with an unbiased eye? Why?! I watched rivalry weekend in college football all weekend, and saw nothing but bias! I am not being "combative", but what is it about this sport that necessitates some kind of an assessment of the event that transcends whether or not your team wins? I don't get it. I promise you that there is not one Alabama fan who would wake up this morning, and call The Iron Bowl, a good game. Why? Because their team lost. Isn't this what sport is about? Why is it important to call your team out? Educate me.
     
  21. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    I'm not crazy enough to think that is going to happen at every race, but I want them to be the norm, not the exception. I want to see people RACE, not drive really fast in a circle. One of the very reasons that over the years Martinsville has become the race I MOST look forward to is that 95% of the time, cars are within a cars are in close contact with other cars, which leads to more RACING. You're not running for thirty laps hoping to get close enough to the guy in front of you to ATTEMPT a pass. I am not enamored with speed at all, I want RACING.
     
  22. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Thank you for your response. I think that our interfacing with the sport is rooted in opinion. I do believe that we are all looking for something different, and in this, an objective assessment of whether or not we had is good race in a given circumstance is both unfair and damaging to the sport. Opinions are fun. There is nothing wrong with expressing them. However, if we are looking to draw people to the sport, whether or not they decide to come is dependent upon the information that they receive relative to the sport, and if that information is based on an opinion expressed as a statement of fact, we are damaging this sport, and it really needs to stop. I mean this in a very respectful way.....You are asking A LOT from this sport. Nothing wrong with that, but if you are set on being unsatisfied until what you expressed becomes the norm, I wonder if you expectations are even reasonable. My two cents.....your description is never going to happen unless we go 100% spec....and according to ALL OEMs.....this is never going to happen. Maybe there are other ways to watch?
     
  23. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    Simple. Because credibility is more important to me than fandom. Even as a young kid, I grew weary of people that were so much of a homer for their team that they refused to see reality and you couldn't have an objective conversation with them. I vowed way back then to never be like that. I love the teams and competitors that I love, and I root for for them wholeheartedly, but I try not to have false illusions about them. I think honest assessment of things is the only way to operate. There are people here that I think like me, and people here who seem to despise me, but rest assured, other than for the purposes of making a joke once in awhile, I say what I believe, and believe everything I say. I have no time for and no interest in saying things just to get a reaction out of people, or to try to make myself believe things that may not be true. I truly dislike your boy Kyle more than I have ever disliked ANY race car driver, but it doesn't stop me from being honest about the man's talent or accomplishments.
     
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  24. Formerjackman

    Formerjackman Team Owner

    I guess a lot of it boils down to what we want and what we are willing to settle for. I still watch every single race in its entirety, so I guess I'm willing to be settle for the sport as is, while hoping for more. Sometimes I get it, most of the times I don't, but I remain ever hopeful. Boiled down to its essence, racing is nothing more than entertainment. All I want to do is be entertained. If I'm not, am I supposed to pretend that I am? That aside, I'm NOT one of those people that goes around screaming from the rooftops all of the time that the racing sucks to anybody that will listen, but if the subject comes up, I'm NOT going to shy away from it. I don't think anything ever changes for the better if you can't be honest about it. One question I have is, you seem to be quite satisfied with the current product, as are some others. Fair enough. Now here's the question. Would you be LESS satisfied if my version of a good race became the norm?
     
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  25. Ventisca

    Ventisca Team Owner

    Yes.

    Then there are Fans -- the meaning of which can vary in level and intensity.

    And from that, there are contributions to discussions to offer genuine loyal support in good times and bad, balance, counter-balance, agitation of competitor fans, trolling, etc.

    If there was ever a season for hyperbolic support or doing Racing Forums longest burnout celebration -- it is when your Driver, CC, Team, Organization wins the Title.

    As I thoroughly enjoyed Logano capturing the Title last year; I can fully appreciate KyBu's R-Nation of supporters enjoying this achievement -- especially with this format, it may not happen again.
     
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  26. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    Can you imagine if every race was exactly as you described your perfect race.? I wonder how long it would take for some to be tired of that? I agree that is something to shoot for and if I thought Nascar wasn't trying to achieve just that I probably would join the ranks of the whiners. I try to watch all three series and usually when they all run the same weekend, one of the races will be pretty good. Some races are thrills and spills, some are chess matches, most races no matter what package or what track are the result of who doesn't make any mistakes and those races aren't the favorites to watch. Of course it is the favorite of the teams and what they are all shooting for. Lead all the laps (no passing) no mistakes in the pits, and win the race.
     
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  27. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    That doesn't come across sometimes.

    For what it's worth, I agree that some take this too seriously. I don't have much use for them but maybe toss in an emoji occasionally. Just a suggestion.
     
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  28. Speedbowl14

    Speedbowl14 Ryan Preece and short tracks

    This made me lol. The @Revman TRD fandom is so real it's comic. I mean, he's entitled to it, and I'm sure he's a very happy man this season. But I certainly don't give any of his points credibility. I didn't think anyone did.
     
  29. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    It's possible to acknowledge a team made mistakes or has problems without calling it out. To ignore issues isn't within my definition of being a fan; it's being willfully ignorant.

    I have no clue how any of yesterday's ball games went. If I saw a seesaw battle, with both teams competitive all the way, some great plays on offense, defense, and special teams, turning on the final drive or going to overtime, I'd call it a great game regardless whether my team won.

    Even more in stick and ball sports than in racing, nothing bores me more than a blow-out. At least at the track, I can look through the field for some competitive racing. A blow-out game just sends me to the car or reaching for the clicker. I'll never understand attending those 'guaranteed win' games college teams put on their schedules. I don't get the entertainment in watching some less talented kids get handed their heads.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  30. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    I would hope not. My numbers would throw the averages off quite a bit. :D
     
  31. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Absolutely not man. In fact, it is my hope and prayer that people get what they want. I have always wanted everybody to get what they are looking for. Having said that, I don't want this sport torn to shreds in search of something that may not even be attainable. I am all for trying though. I will also say this....some noticed, most didn't.....Our Champion was very pissed all year with the package. While I respect his opinion, I didn't share his disdain. I thought that the package was an improvement overall, and many felt better about the racing, so I was all for it, even though my guy hated it. Big picture.
     
  32. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    I respect your approach. I see it differently. I am about the blind passion. I am unreasonable. I get way too wound up. I am not credible in an objective sense, but I love this sport, and I am committed to it. I am completely fine with assessments of the racing until subjectivity enters under the veil of objectivity. I have a problem with those who only see the bad, and not the good. As I stated earlier, I disagreed with Kyle about the racing. Now, did I have a problem with his constant criticism of the package? Yes, in the sense that I don't think it did our sport any favors. No, in the sense that Kyle wouldn't be Kyle unless he was saying what he was saying. I like the guy for the reasons you hate him. He is uncut in a world that doesn't allow it. He gives you exactly what he is thinking, and couldn't give a **** if you don't like it. I like that. I understand those who don't, but I don't agree with the way they express it sometimes.
     
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  33. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    I don't agree with your position much, but at least I have a better understanding of where you're coming from.
     
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  34. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    I see the NASCAR equivalent of a blow out in stick and ball a no-hitter. I stay for no-hitters.
     
  35. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck


    Maybe it is so the never win stick n ball teams can learn from the big teams, like they try to get us to swallow in Nascar.
     
  36. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    Eh, sometimes that "calling out" is subjective. Yesterday, I heard stuff in the college football world like "out-coached". I'm good with the calling out, but let's not suggest that the mere fact of doing so makes it an objective analysis.
     
  37. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    In both instances, it is about money. Like most stuff is.
     
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  38. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    Okay, I can't see that comparison at all. I might stay for a 1-0 one-hitter; that's still competitive. I'm leaving / switching if it's 12-0. (Mostly I'd be wondering how in Hell I came to be watching baseball at all. o_O)

    As I noted, I'm not likely to leave a race regardless. I can always find some competition somewhere on the track.
     
  39. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Remember the Gator

    Way off topic but that's another reason I don't watch college sports. Stop pretending it's about the students or the competition or anything other than the money. Maybe it once was but it hasn't been for decades.
     
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  40. Revman

    Revman 2X CHAMPION

    A 12-0 no-hitter is a no-hitter. It is impressive. The opponent's score is irrelevant. Same feeling I had when Martin and Kyle dominated the 600. What they did was impressive and entertaining IMO. I am not saying you are wrong, I just see it differently.
     
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