Rules

[Ventisca]

you probably need to do some more studying about types of instrumentation and their accuracy. The human factor is the problem.

I deal with aviation as well automotive -- avionics in aviation make your NASCAR gauges look like the stone age -- much higher standards than you would understand and in more severe environments, as well as enhanced interoperability with sophisticated systems.

What NASCAR is doing with distance and timing is amateurish. What teams are doing with Tachs and dummy lights is moronic. All that glass in the ****pit with antiquated means and methods behind it -- all for "entertainment".

 

[Team Penske]

I will take the speed limit rule at face-value -- that it is to enhance Pit Road Safety.

The controversy for Pit Road Speeding seems improperly directed at the drivers trying to divine and adjust their speed on Pit Road, while pushing to the very edge of the rule so they don't lose any positions on Pit Road.

However, it should be directed at the driver running the correct speed -- especially as it is deemed a SAFETY Factor. THAT being the case, NASCAR should give the drivers actual instrumentation (speedometer) to use to ensure they can monitor and adjust their speed accurately, and eliminate the 5 mph variance from the stated speed limit for that track.

But NASCAR would rather amp up the drama of drivers using their Tach, dummy lights, and 5 mph leeway for entertainment penalties to be handed out on Pit Road. That is absurd if Safety is the reason for the Rule.

Other racing series have a pit road switch which makes it impossible to speed.

 

[kyle18fan]

uh no, speedometers work -- that is a fact

what you are saying is an absurd derivative of a speedometer by contrived means

We went to the Moon, we can design and build an accurate speed device

 

[Old 97]

Other racing series have a pit road switch which makes it impossible to speed.

It doesn't get any easier than that. That would end this nonsense immediately.

 

[StandOnIt]

We went to the Moon, we can design and build an accurate speed device

It isn't a matter of accuracy, it's the foot on the gas pedal and the skill or lack of it. Doesn't make a damn what you use to measure it.

 

[OldTimer]

First...cars.

Get rid of the splitters, the side skirts, and lower the spoiler to no more than three inches. Body has to conform to manufacturers original specs in the following dimensions: hood, roof, rear deck...A and C posts must be in stock location and height is same as a standard production car from cowl to deck lid...no massaging. Fenders modified to accommodate tires. Body has to match sectional dimension of stock vehicle from front to back. Both front and rear of vehicle must use street stock bumper covers, grill, and rear valences. No chin spoilers beyond factory show room replacements. Minimum ground clearance of 4.5" except under front engine cross member. Eliminate all "bump" stops and all shocks have to be sealed and non adjustable.

As far as pit road speed...would like speed limit as it is now, only under yellow...but adjusted for green flag stops (say double that for super speedways).

 

[StandOnIt]

good luck with that. try that with the new gen 7 car thread.

 

[OldTimer]

good luck with that. try that with the new gen 7 car thread.

Have been going back and forth with a few people on the USAC Stock Car site...the majority agree this where NASCAR strayed from the original script and went from the fastest growing to the realm of insignificance.

When they started twisting the forms of the bodies to create an aerodynamic monster back in the mid '90's..it skewered the sport for ever. The basic body on Kulwicki's '92 T-Bird was pretty much a plug and play body shell right off the assembly line, the twisted abortions of Jeff Gordon's '97 Monte Carlo did not have a square inch that met the body shell coming off a GM assembly line. Huge morph in the rules allowed this. There was an attempt to get back to basic's...but then they allowed wings and other "boy" racer add on crap to it...get rid of the condiments and put "real" back into it. Make them work for it...make the cars slide all over and they have to be driven with skill and gas peddle, not crushed to the track then under powering them to keep the speeds down. In the Texas race they showed the difference in corner speed and straight away speed between last year and this year...liked last year better.

Get rid of even more racing specific aerodynamics while allowing more horsepower would be even better yet! If they cannot get the power to the ground...all the horsepower in the world won't help them.

 

[StandOnIt]

Have been going back and forth with a few people on the USAC Stock Car site...the majority agree this where NASCAR strayed from the original script and went from the fastest growing to the realm of insignificance.

When they started twisting the forms of the bodies to create an aerodynamic monster back in the mid '90's..it skewered the sport for ever. The basic body on Kulwicki's '92 T-Bird was pretty much a plug and play body shell right off the assembly line, the twisted abortions of Jeff Gordon's '97 Monte Carlo did not have a square inch that met the body shell coming off a GM assembly line. Huge morph in the rules allowed this. There was an attempt to get back to basic's...but then they allowed wings and other "boy" racer add on crap to it...get rid of the condiments and put "real" back into it. Make them work for it...make the cars slide all over and they have to be driven with skill and gas peddle, not crushed to the track then under powering them to keep the speeds down. In the Texas race they showed the difference in corner speed and straight away speed between last year and this year...liked last year better.

Get rid of even more racing specific aerodynamics while allowing more horsepower would be even better yet! If they cannot get the power to the ground...all the horsepower in the world won't help them.

not being snarky, but there are a million ideas on what is "real" racing these days. They are in the process of designing the Gen 7 car, we have a thread dedicated to it. https://racing-forums.com/threads/21-generation-7-car-news.67097/page-3 But I personally believe whatever they design will piss off most everybody whatever they come up with FWIW because everybody thinks they are positive their ideas are better than Nascar's.

 

[sdj]

I will take the speed limit rule at face-value -- that it is to enhance Pit Road Safety.

The controversy for Pit Road Speeding seems improperly directed at the drivers trying to divine and adjust their speed on Pit Road, while pushing to the very edge of the rule so they don't lose any positions on Pit Road.

However, it should be directed at the driver running the correct speed -- especially as it is deemed a SAFETY Factor. THAT being the case, NASCAR should give the drivers actual instrumentation (speedometer) to use to ensure they can monitor and adjust their speed accurately, and eliminate the 5 mph variance from the stated speed limit for that track.

But NASCAR would rather amp up the drama of drivers using their Tach, dummy lights, and 5 mph leeway for entertainment penalties to be handed out on Pit Road. That is absurd if Safety is the reason for the Rule.

99.5% of the drivers do not get speeding penalties on pit road in this sport.
The tachometer, gear ration and tire size, is a better true speed indicator than a speedometer.
Also, if you take away the 5mph over rule it will make no difference in speeding penalties, they will run it to and over that edge also.
JMHO

 

[Ventisca]

99.5% of the drivers do not get speeding penalties on pit road in this sport.
The tachometer, gear ration and tire size, is a better true speed indicator than a speedometer.
Also, if you take away the 5mph over rule it will make no difference in speeding penalties, they will run it to and over that edge also.
JMHO

You're stuck in the past.

Your "tachometer, gear ration (sic) and tire size" is laughable as NASCAR lists a MPH limit and of course the allowable "5 mph over rule" (measured in sections) -- so it is contrived to ignore telemetry and go back to some multi-factor (with variances, as well as being influenced by tire spin or slide, clutching, etc.) solution when you could simply get a read out on screen.

They don't use the tach and idiot lights because it's better...

A glass ****pit that provides data can be hooked up to any number of devices that measure actual ground speed that would read out on the speedometer, as well as engine rpm, engine temp, fuel pressure, fuel remaining (another no-no), throttle position, brake bias, tire pressures, etc. etc.

 

[sdj]

You're stuck in the past.

Your "tachometer, gear ration (sic) and tire size" is laughable as NASCAR lists a MPH limit and of course the allowable "5 mph over rule" (measured in sections) -- so it is contrived to ignore telemetry and go back to some multi-factor (with variances, as well as being influenced by tire spin or slide, clutching, etc.) solution when you could simply get a read out on screen.

They don't use the tach and idiot lights because it's better...

A glass ****pit that provides data can be hooked up to any number of devices that measure actual ground speed that would read out on the speedometer, as well as engine rpm, engine temp, fuel pressure, fuel remaining (another no-no), throttle position, brake bias, tire pressures, etc. etc.

As I stated before:
99.5% of the drivers do not get speeding penalties on pit road in this sport.
The tachometer, gear ration and tire size, is a better true speed indicator than a speedometer.
Also, if you take away the 5mph over rule it will make no difference in speeding penalties, they will run it to and over that edge also.
JMHO

 

[Ventisca]

'If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****.'

you lack self-awareness...

 

[StandOnIt]

you lack self-awareness...

I doubt it. Engine revolutions are used to not only judge speed, but in some series engine revolutions are used to limit speeds and over revs. The more ya know.

Pressing the button changes the engine rev-limit, according to the gear selected and the limit in force at the time. Drivers must remember to press it before crossing the pit entry line, as it does not instantly slow the car to the correct speed, as some drivers think!

 

[Ventisca]

I doubt it. Engine revolutions are used to not only judge speed, but in some series engine revolutions are used to limit speeds and over revs. The more ya know.

Pressing the button changes the engine rev-limit, according to the gear selected and the limit in force at the time. Drivers must remember to press it before crossing the pit entry line, as it does not instantly slow the car to the correct speed, as some drivers think!

Engine revolutions don't measure ground speed -- so you are wrong to say they do. It is a combination of other factors (gear ratio, clutch slippage, tire spin or slide, much less a race tire with changing dimensions; and you can throw in drivetrain lash to get that package rolling) to mechanically link a turning engine to a turning tire that then imparts motion (acceleration and measured velocity) to a vehicle -- that can be used to loosely tie engine rpm to a ground speed.

 

[StandOnIt]

Engine revolutions don't measure ground speed -- so you are wrong to say they do. It is a combination of other factors (gear ratio, clutch slippage, tire spin or slide, much less a race tire with changing dimensions; and you can throw in drivetrain lash to get that package rolling) to mechanically link a turning engine to a turning tire that then imparts motion (acceleration and measured velocity) to a vehicle -- that can be used to loosely tie engine rpm to a ground speed.

So your point is misguided.

sure glad a speedometer doesn't do that ..worse. Tell ya what, let us know when any racing series goes to speedometers and tells us they are more important than a tach.

 

[kyle18fan]

It isn't a matter of accuracy, it's the foot on the gas pedal and the skill or lack of it. Doesn't make a damn what you use to measure it.

I can hold just about anything with wheels at a steady speed ( with a 5 mph buffer ) Name it ........... semi truck, excavator, backhoe, motocross bike, flatrack bike, car, front end loader etc. etc. I know that most drivers can as well, providing that they are not pushing their luck. Drivers push their luck just as a drag racer red lights. Snarky reply welcome and expected

 

[Ventisca]

I can hold just about anything with wheels at a steady speed ( with a 5 mph buffer ) Name it ........... semi truck, excavator, backhoe, motocross bike, flatrack bike, car, front end loader etc. etc. I know that most drivers can as well, providing that they are not pushing their luck. Drivers push their luck just as a drag racer red lights. Snarky reply welcome and expected

Under race conditions coming off the track at race speed as you transition to Pit Road speed limit
or trying to launch out of the Pits so you don't lose position to a competitor you can see getting past you? -- probably not

But perhaps you are just that gifted and missed your calling...

 

[kyle18fan]

Engine revolutions don't measure ground speed -- so you are wrong to say they do. It is a combination of other factors (gear ratio, clutch slippage, tire spin or slide, much less a race tire with changing dimensions; and you can throw in drivetrain lash to get that package rolling) to mechanically link a turning engine to a turning tire that then imparts motion (acceleration and measured velocity) to a vehicle -- that can be used to loosely tie engine rpm to a ground speed.

So your point is misguided.

Engine revs can measure ground speed if all the factors are figured in and there is no slippage in the drivetrain or tires. 3 grand in 2nd gear is going to give you a consistent speed, especially when you have a 5 mph buffer zone. It can be figured out with precision

 

[Ventisca]

Engine revs can measure ground speed if all the factors are figured in and there is no slippage in the drivetrain or tires. 3 grand in 2nd gear is going to give you a consistent speed, especially when you have a 5 mph buffer zone. It can be figured out with precision

"if"

"especially"

But the fact is that Engine Revs measure engine revs...

 

[kyle18fan]

"if"

"especially"

But the fact is that Engine Revs measure engine revs...

But after 60 years experience, I know that engine revs can also determine the vehicle speed with a bit of fairly simple math. NASCAR knows this as well and the drivers all use it. Some drivers over do it and pay the price. Some timing zones are oddly shaped as well and the time spent in that zone means everything

 

[kyle18fan]

Under race conditions coming off the track at race speed as you transition to Pit Road speed limit
or trying to launch out of the Pits so you don't lose position to a competitor you can see getting past you? -- probably not

But perhaps you are just that gifted and missed your calling...

No ....... I know that math can determine the vehicle speed at a given rpm, it is a simple fact. Unless you throw in some form of slippage. NASCAR doesn't use vehicle speed per se, they use time in a zone to determine speed

 

[ChexOrWrex]

I can hold just about anything with wheels at a steady speed ( with a 5 mph buffer ) Name it ........... semi truck, excavator, backhoe, motocross bike, flatrack bike, car, front end loader etc. etc. I know that most drivers can as well, providing that they are not pushing their luck. Drivers push their luck just as a drag racer red lights. Snarky reply welcome and expected

Most race cars do not drive “well” at or under normal highway speeds. They are built to scream at 9k revolutions per minute, not cruise at sub 1k. This is why even the best of the best still slip up.

 

[kyle18fan]

Most race cars do not drive “well” at or under normal highway speeds. They are built to scream at 9k revolutions per minute, not cruise at sub 1k. This is why even the best of the best still slip up.

Indy uses a fixed rev button to maintain a speed, Nascar uses a lower gear and a fairly high rev which the engines are happy at. Drivers simply push the limits or spend too little time in a zone because of their angle.

 

[Ventisca]

Indy uses a fixed rev button to maintain a speed, Nascar uses a lower gear and a fairly high rev which the engines are happy at. Drivers simply push the limits or spend too little time in a zone because of their angle.

You might as well just get it all out and tell everyone in here that when you drive your KyBu Edition Toyota Corolla, that you disregard the speedometer and only look at the Tach to determine your speed.

You're in this deep -- just go ahead and tell a bigger tale...

 

[kyle18fan]

You might as well just get it all out and tell everyone in here that when you drive your KyBu Edition Toyota Corolla, that you disregard the speedometer and only look at the Tach to determine your speed.

You're in this deep -- just go ahead and tell a bigger tale...

I don't struggle with simple math, the numbers don't lie !!! I drive an International Harvester pickup, it won't go fast enough to get a ticket

 

[StandOnIt]

it really helps to know the differences between a race car and a passenger car.

 

[kyle18fan]

it really helps to know the differences between a race car and a passenger car.

Race cars are loud

 

[sdj]

Race cars are loud

Man, I am sure glad we cleared that up. LOL

 

[Revman]

not being snarky, but there are a million ideas on what is "real" racing these days. They are in the process of designing the Gen 7 car, we have a thread dedicated to it. https://racing-forums.com/threads/21-generation-7-car-news.67097/page-3 But I personally believe whatever they design will piss off most everybody whatever they come up with FWIW because everybody thinks they are positive their ideas are better than Nascar's.

This. Everybody's picture of real racing is different, and because NASCAR has been receptive, everybody thinks they have a voice. It will never end. Eventually, everybody is going to have to come in the direction I live in.....A race is organic--cannot be scripted. As such, you will have those days when somebody wins by a ton, and some days when it is to the line---mostly, however, it will be somewhere in between. Instead of bitching about why it didn't go the way one thinks it should, we should be asking the question, "Why did Driver A win by so much, or what did Driver/Team A do to stay in contention?" Post race discussion should be about this. NASCAR should give us access in a freaking open garage to explore what teams are doing to address the rules, and then it should be public knowledge where gains are made. You can go spec to prevent secrets, or you can have a media crew savvy enough with access to reveal them in the world we live in. There is a story in every race, but I think this series is struggling because it is rarely discussed. Social media and NASCAR Radio are huge problems, but those can be overcome by a racing community who commits to advancing this sport instead of tearing it down because some think they can.

 

[Spotter22]

First...cars.

Get rid of the splitters, the side skirts, and lower the spoiler to no more than three inches. Body has to conform to manufacturers original specs in the following dimensions: hood, roof, rear deck...A and C posts must be in stock location and height is same as a standard production car from cowl to deck lid...no massaging. Fenders modified to accommodate tires. Body has to match sectional dimension of stock vehicle from front to back. Both front and rear of vehicle must use street stock bumper covers, grill, and rear valences. No chin spoilers beyond factory show room replacements. Minimum ground clearance of 4.5" except under front engine cross member. Eliminate all "bump" stops and all shocks have to be sealed and non adjustable.

As far as pit road speed...would like speed limit as it is now, only under yellow...but adjusted for green flag stops (say double that for super speedways).

Lots goin on in this post but I'll address it this way, what will this accomplish?

 

[Spotter22]

This. Everybody's picture of real racing is different, and because NASCAR has been receptive, everybody thinks they have a voice. It will never end. Eventually, everybody is going to have to come in the direction I live in.....A race is organic--cannot be scripted. As such, you will have those days when somebody wins by a ton, and some days when it is to the line---mostly, however, it will be somewhere in between. Instead of bitching about why it didn't go the way one thinks it should, we should be asking the question, "Why did Driver A win by so much, or what did Driver/Team A do to stay in contention?" Post race discussion should be about this. NASCAR should give us access in a freaking open garage to explore what teams are doing to address the rules, and then it should be public knowledge where gains are made. You can go spec to prevent secrets, or you can have a media crew savvy enough with access to reveal them in the world we live in. There is a story in every race, but I think this series is struggling because it is rarely discussed. Social media and NASCAR Radio are huge problems, but those can be overcome by a racing community who commits to advancing this sport instead of tearing it down because some think they can.

On point.

 

[Revman]

On point.

I will say this publicly.....I read your posts. I think about what you are saying. I love this sport. My narrative has changed. This is why I come here....to understand. Thank you.

 

[Flyer22]

All I'm advocating for is for the rules to be applied sensibly and let the drivers figure out who wins the races, not some NASCAR official. And no, I wasn't advocating for 150 mph speed limits on pit road like it probably used to be. All I'm saying is we've gone from one extreme to another in this sport. Like just about everything in society.

 

[Revman]

All I'm advocating for is for the rules to be applied sensibly and let the drivers figure out who wins the races, not some NASCAR official. And no, I wasn't advocating for 150 mph speed limits on pit road like it probably used to be. All I'm saying is we've gone from one extreme to another in this sport. Like just about everything in society.

I agree here. I have no need for a billion rules, and the perfect enforcement of those rules. Crap like instant replay in sports pisses me off. Nothing is perfect, but most of the time, things work themselves out, and over the course of a season, it's all relatively fair. I really don't understand how we got to the point where in a kind of screwy world, we all of a sudden expect absolute perfection in the enforcement of rules. We are chasing something that cannot be caught. Maybe we should be happy with what we have. The call on Hamlin is proof. Did that make his victory better? Would it have been the world's worst thing to let that go? We are not preschoolers. I watch law enforcement let 75 in a 60 slide every day. Must make some very crazy.

 

[Spotter22]

I will say this publicly.....I read your posts. I think about what you are saying. I love this sport. My narrative has changed. This is why I come here....to understand. Thank you.

Your love for the sport is evident. Cant tell you how much enjoyment I got out of being at the track and taking people around the cars and letting them see it up close for the first time. At the track the world is different, people are happy and glad to be there. We need to get those first timers back, we need our superstars to start going to the local tracks across America and start a new grass roots campaign. Kyle Busch is doing that and I appreciate it.

 

[Spotter22]

All I'm advocating for is for the rules to be applied sensibly and let the drivers figure out who wins the races, not some NASCAR official. And no, I wasn't advocating for 150 mph speed limits on pit road like it probably used to be. All I'm saying is we've gone from one extreme to another in this sport. Like just about everything in society.

I just have a hard time figuring out whats so complicated about pit road speed. Its black and white.

 

[OldTimer]

Lots goin on in this post but I'll address it this way, what will this accomplish?

A few things...first off, the driver becomes more important. Second, the cars become more relatable to the general public. Also...hopefully the team cost would go down if they were disallowing aero accoutrements.

As far as the pit speed...do not want a green flag pit stop being such a penalty. Used to love how Nascar was so different in regards to pit stops, huge difference than other motor sports. Also would like to bring back the opportunity to fix the car...liked to watch how far or how much a damaged vehicle and driver could make up with perseverance.

Heck...I remember one team changing an engine and getting back out...picked up ten spots!

 

[Old 97]

You're stuck in the past.

Your "tachometer, gear ration (sic) and tire size" is laughable as NASCAR lists a MPH limit and of course the allowable "5 mph over rule" (measured in sections) -- so it is contrived to ignore telemetry and go back to some multi-factor (with variances, as well as being influenced by tire spin or slide, clutching, etc.) solution when you could simply get a read out on screen.

They don't use the tach and idiot lights because it's better...

A glass ****pit that provides data can be hooked up to any number of devices that measure actual ground speed that would read out on the speedometer, as well as engine rpm, engine temp, fuel pressure, fuel remaining (another no-no), throttle position, brake bias, tire pressures, etc. etc.

I'm not a fan of more technology in the cars but......….
With positions frozen under yellow and scoring and timing loops already imbedded in the tracks the technology exists to make this entire conversation a moot point. That would be good.

 

[Spotter22]

A few things...first off, the driver becomes more important. Second, the cars become more relatable to the general public. Also...hopefully the team cost would go down if they were disallowing aero accoutrements.

As far as the pit speed...do not want a green flag pit stop being such a penalty. Used to love how Nascar was so different in regards to pit stops, huge difference than other motor sports. Also would like to bring back the opportunity to fix the car...liked to watch how far or how much a damaged vehicle and driver could make up with perseverance.

Heck...I remember one team changing an engine and getting back out...picked up ten spots!

Team costs would skyrocket. You are fundementally changing thier entire operation with those rules. Aero would become even more important, teams would spend millions to gain back downforce, sideforce etc......

I wish we could eliminate pit road speed but we just cant, not even green Flag stops. That little wall isnt much protection from a 3500 pound stock car running over 100 entering pit road. Bad things can happen and we were lucky we didnt have more fatalities back in the day then we did. You are still allowed to fix the car, as long is it is mechanical and not cosmetic which will put you on the clock, the reaon they wont let you do the Motors anymore is..... you guessed it, too much money. Bobby Allisons crew changed an engine in I believe it was 12 minutes back in the 80's. It was amazing but I understand why they dont allow that anymore.