Shocking financials...

StandOnIt said:
Nobody is stupid enough to be talking about the demise of Golf who have the oldest demographic of all...but certain foolish folks make it a habit here.
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I can't speak to the demise of Nascar as I think it will always remain in some form and as for golf I will let you take that up with a duffer or someone who cares about it. People in your age group are much, much, much shorter to the end than the beginning and Nascar needs younger fans to take your place. When will the people aged 18-34 become interested....this year....next year.....the year after that? Will people in that age group have magic dust dropped on them by the fan fairy in their sleep?
 
KodiakRusty89 said:
NASCAR was going to lose fans no matter what they did. I knew back in 2002 there was no way in hell Dover would be able to maintain demand to fill their 140k seats. I got to witness the meteoric rise of the facility and then beginning of the drastic fall having attended every race there from September of 1990 though the June 2010 event. Outside of a few NFL teams/games I can't think of a professional event (golf included) that doesn't have relatively wide average attendance figures year to year.

The problem with NASCAR is the drop-offs have been so severe. I literally can't watch the Brickyard anymore because it's so depressing. The prestige of the track and event should be able to attract 200k people. The Indy 500 attendance has really bounced back nicely the last 5 years or so. The enormity of the event still plays out on TV.

At the end of the day the tracks built too many seats. That is the more of a problem than anything NASCAR did to limit the fan defections. The absurd seating capacities (mostly started/done before ISC/SMI owned the tracks) skewed reality which caused NASCAR and the sponsors (especially the sponsors and tv networks) to panic. There's a reason why Chicago and Kansas were built with only 70-90k seats during the peak of the sport's popularity. Texas Speedway was built with the "Jerry World" mindset and Vegas is located in a tourist trap.

The other thing is not all races were selling out in the 90's. People simply refused to sit out in heat at Pepsi 400 in July. Those early to mid 90's races were maybe getting 50-60k? Talladega (July race), Martinsville, Atlanta (spring race), Charlotte (fall race) and Rockingham always had noticeable empty seats.

I still like Bristol with about 90k seats so you could still see "Thunder Valley". But how do you remove seats there?

Dover should still be able to pull in 85-100k per race
Pocono should still get 100-115k with their infield
Talladega should still get 125k or so with their infield
Indy should still get 200k
Michigan 100-120k with their infield
Richmond 75-90k
Charlotte 125k+ for the 600
etc

I think the sport was most "comfortable" in terms of attendance/popularity in the 1992-1996 range. It was just starting to blow up mainstream with Gordon and the Brickyard 400 brining the sport the wider audience but the cost to attend and seating capacities were still reasonable.
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I don't think it is any secret that Nascar and the tracks seduced the canine during the boom times and due in part to their mishandling of that situation they find themselves in the position they are now.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I can't speak to the demise of Nascar as I think it will always remain in some form and as for golf I will let you take that up with a duffer or someone who cares about it. People in your age group are much, much, much shorter to the end than the beginning and Nascar needs younger fans to take your place. When will the people aged 18-34 become interested....this year....next year.....the year after that? Will people in that age group have magic dust dropped on them by the fan fairy in their sleep?
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you might find your answer that you search for day after day after day with the golf fans( a form of insanity)same thing over and over and over.
 
KodiakRusty89 said:
NASCAR was going to lose fans no matter what they did. I knew back in 2002 there was no way in hell Dover would be able to maintain demand to fill their 140k seats. I got to witness the meteoric rise of the facility and then beginning of the drastic fall having attended every race there from September of 1990 though the June 2010 event. Outside of a few NFL teams/games I can't think of a professional event (golf included) that doesn't have relatively wide average attendance figures year to year.

The problem with NASCAR is the drop-offs have been so severe. I literally can't watch the Brickyard anymore because it's so depressing. The prestige of the track and event should be able to attract 200k people. The Indy 500 attendance has really bounced back nicely the last 5 years or so. The enormity of the event still plays out on TV.

At the end of the day the tracks built too many seats. That is the more of a problem than anything NASCAR did to limit the fan defections. The absurd seating capacities (mostly started/done before ISC/SMI owned the tracks) skewed reality which caused NASCAR and the sponsors (especially the sponsors and tv networks) to panic. There's a reason why Chicago and Kansas were built with only 70-90k seats during the peak of the sport's popularity. Texas Speedway was built with the "Jerry World" mindset and Vegas is located in a tourist trap.

The other thing is not all races were selling out in the 90's. People simply refused to sit out in heat at Pepsi 400 in July. Those early to mid 90's races were maybe getting 50-60k? Talladega (July race), Martinsville, Atlanta (spring race), Charlotte (fall race) and Rockingham always had noticeable empty seats.

I still like Bristol with about 90k seats so you could still see "Thunder Valley". But how do you remove seats there?

Dover should still be able to pull in 85-100k per race
Pocono should still get 100-115k with their infield
Talladega should still get 125k or so with their infield
Indy should still get 200k
Michigan 100-120k with their infield
Richmond 75-90k
Charlotte 125k+ for the 600
etc

I think the sport was most "comfortable" in terms of attendance/popularity in the 1992-1996 range. It was just starting to blow up mainstream with Gordon and the Brickyard 400 brining the sport the wider audience but the cost to attend and seating capacities were still reasonable.
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Yeah the fall off lately is continuing to flatten compared to the recent years before, Indy car is a good example of a series that is continuing to increase it's viewership..They have some decent racing. So does Nascar, it has a very stable audience which is why it continues to turn a profit
 
StandOnIt said:
you might find your answer that you search for day after day after day with the golf fans( a form of insanity)same thing over and over and over.
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Oh....you think I am looking for an answer? Non, non, non mon ami! I ain't looking as I am waiting for an answer to materialize or a wise individual to provide one.
 
The same thing over and over again, kinda like turnin’ left ‘n goin’ in circles on the old, half full, three turn motorsports entertainment thing with the AWESOME nickname for all but the closin’ laps yesterday…………………..
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah the fall off lately is continuing to flatten compared to the recent years before, Indy car is a good example of a series that is continuing to increase it's viewership..They have some decent racing. So does Nascar, it has a very stable audience which is why it continues to turn a profit
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IDK what Indy Car is doing this year but I know the average viewership for a race in 2014 was 989,000 and is now 1.28 million which looks like sustainable incremental growth to me.

I won't address Nascar's viewership but here is a link for you to check to see if what you think and how things actually are line up. Enjoy.

http://www.espn.com/jayski/pages/story/_/id/18922777/nascar-2017-tv-ratings
 
StandOnIt said:
and now as the late Paul Harvey would say is the rest of the story.
Dover Motorsports - one of the few public companies that operate tracks.
Dover Motorsports...Principal stockholder is 88 years old..might have something to do with it. He has owned numerous tracks that have been shut down recently..Gateway for one..reopened soon after it was shuttered by Dover Motorsports and is now a going concern. Nascar, Indycar and NHRA Drag Racing have all returned to the track. probably the same thing will happen with his last holding Dover one of these days.
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This would be fine reasoning if attendance weren't down at all of the events.
 
BobbyFord said:
This would be fine reasoning if attendance weren't down at all of the events.
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He likes to cherry pick stats out of context that he believes will show Nascar in a more positive light for reasons only known to him.
 
aunty dive said:
14

Correction - 19
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TheCountSesameStreet.png
 
The marketing value for the next broadcast market is going to be an eye opener.
We already saw a sharp decline in the series sponsorship value.
 
not really..they drop the flag every weekend of the season. That apparently is surprising to some here. They are convinced that the sky is falling. Shocked even. I was taught at a young age if you can do something about it you do it, if you can't, you move on..some appear to be stuck on stupid. ;):confused::D
 
KodiakRusty89 said:
NASCAR was going to lose fans no matter what they did. I knew back in 2002 there was no way in hell Dover would be able to maintain demand to fill their 140k seats. I got to witness the meteoric rise of the facility and then beginning of the drastic fall having attended every race there from September of 1990 though the June 2010 event. Outside of a few NFL teams/games I can't think of a professional event (golf included) that doesn't have relatively wide average attendance figures year to year.

The problem with NASCAR is the drop-offs have been so severe. I literally can't watch the Brickyard anymore because it's so depressing. The prestige of the track and event should be able to attract 200k people. The Indy 500 attendance has really bounced back nicely the last 5 years or so. The enormity of the event still plays out on TV.

At the end of the day the tracks built too many seats. That is the more of a problem than anything NASCAR did to limit the fan defections. The absurd seating capacities (mostly started/done before ISC/SMI owned the tracks) skewed reality which caused NASCAR and the sponsors (especially the sponsors and tv networks) to panic. There's a reason why Chicago and Kansas were built with only 70-90k seats during the peak of the sport's popularity. Texas Speedway was built with the "Jerry World" mindset and Vegas is located in a tourist trap.

The other thing is not all races were selling out in the 90's. People simply refused to sit out in heat at Pepsi 400 in July. Those early to mid 90's races were maybe getting 50-60k? Talladega (July race), Martinsville, Atlanta (spring race), Charlotte (fall race) and Rockingham always had noticeable empty seats.

I still like Bristol with about 90k seats so you could still see "Thunder Valley". But how do you remove seats there?

Dover should still be able to pull in 85-100k per race
Pocono should still get 100-115k with their infield
Talladega should still get 125k or so with their infield
Indy should still get 200k
Michigan 100-120k with their infield
Richmond 75-90k
Charlotte 125k+ for the 600
etc

I think the sport was most "comfortable" in terms of attendance/popularity in the 1992-1996 range. It was just starting to blow up mainstream with Gordon and the Brickyard 400 brining the sport the wider audience but the cost to attend and seating capacities were still reasonable.
Click to expand...

I agree with your points here. There was a time in the late 90's and early 2000's that NASCAR drew a lot of bandwagon fans. I attended many races with them. While we would normally have a group of 5 or 6 of us tailgating, it grew to as large as 20 or more. Those fans were not there for the racing, they were there to say they went to a NASCAR race. That is the majority of the fan base that has been lost. Some old school fans got frustrated with all the changes and some of the "corporate" approach taken by drivers, teams and tracks and left the sport too.

I am not willing to write off NASCAR. There is a lot of potential on the table and somehow NASCAR must find the right leadership to market/promote and sell their product to the masses. This falls directly on the boardroom.
 
StandOnIt said:
not really..they drop the flag every weekend of the season. That apparently is surprising to some here. They are convinced that the sky is falling. Shocked even. I was taught at a young age if you can do something about it you do it, if you can't, you move on..some appear to be stuck on stupid. ;):confused::D
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I won't address the histrionics and hyperbole but according to what I have read there is justifiable concern within Nascar regarding sponsorships, race attendance, broadcast viewing, general lack of interest and the age of the audience. I understand and respect that these topics pose no concern to you at all and that is fine so why not just enjoy the races and leave the talk you dislike to others? Why worry about people you think are worrying?
 
DIDIT said:
I agree with your points here. There was a time in the late 90's and early 2000's that NASCAR drew a lot of bandwagon fans. I attended many races with them. While we would normally have a group of 5 or 6 of us tailgating, it grew to as large as 20 or more. Those fans were not there for the racing, they were there to say they went to a NASCAR race. That is the majority of the fan base that has been lost. Some old school fans got frustrated with all the changes and some of the "corporate" approach taken by drivers, teams and tracks and left the sport too.

I am not willing to write off NASCAR. There is a lot of potential on the table and somehow NASCAR must find the right leadership to market/promote and sell their product to the masses. This falls directly on the boardroom.
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Nascar hasn't had competent leadership for many years so installing people that can sell the series would be a great start.
 
BobbyFord said:
Less is more.
Less downforce, less gimmicks, less stages...
Right now it just seems there's less fans.
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There is no "seems" about it when it comes to less fans as that is just a sad reality.
 
None of you are placing enough blame on our disgusting playoff format.

The announcement absolutely enraged me, and I planned to quit watching this sport!

Thankfully, my dad hadn't moved to Florida yet, and he put on the 2014 Daytona 500 when I saw him that weekend. Otherwise, I wouldn't have watched that race, and may have stopped watching period. To this day, I'm disgusted with our playoff format, and still boycott the playoff open and finale.
 
You guys are way to concerned over the fates of Millionaires and Billionaires. If NASCAR can't figure it out, then something will take it's place. Hell, the tickets will probably be cheaper and you won't need some stupid Cable Channel that you don't want.
 
100 people show up to the local dirt track on any given weekend. And guess what, they still race.

As long as races are still being run, I will watch and continue to be a fan. And races will continue to be run. Don't really care if 1000000 others are watching with me or only 100 others.
 
PeopleAreStrange said:
None of you are placing enough blame on our disgusting playoff format.

The announcement absolutely enraged me, and I planned to quit watching this sport!

Thankfully, my dad hadn't moved to Florida yet, and he put on the 2014 Daytona 500 when I saw him that weekend. Otherwise, I wouldn't have watched that race, and may have stopped watching period. To this day, I'm disgusted with our playoff format, and still boycott the playoff open and finale.
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If I had to guess I would say that the chase and the CoT are 2 of the biggest things that soured people on the series.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
If I had to guess I would say that the chase and the CoT are 2 of the biggest things that soured people on the series.
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For me it's The Chase, caution clock, fake cautions for the purpose of bunching up the field, playoff format, free passes for drivers that miss races, restrictor plates, caution line, constant meddling and rule changes, preferential treatment, etc. It goes on and on.
This sport has become a cross between a soap opera and a sitcom.
Fortunately I remember when it was all about racing.
 
DUN24 said:
I'm confident this sport is not going anywhere. I'm going to continue to be a fan for the foreseeable future. However, It is depressing to see the sport fade. You can't lie.
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I agree with everything you just said...... Nascar will be here....... just not in the capacity it once was..... I don't think it will ever be back to what it was in the 90's....... that was a wonderful 10 year span..... I will continue to follow it also...... I just don't have the zeal for it that I had for decades...... Right now.... I haven't watched a race for I don't know when.... I listen to MRN or PRN when it's handy... I now don't have to worry about planning my Sunday around being at home.... the wife and I can go do things that wasn't possible before..... (We have been married 39 years and most of those years.... going anywhere on Sunday was absolutely unacceptable)...... I hate seeing the sport die myself..... It IS depressing...... but...... it really had nothing to do with the fans....... it was all management..... which is usually the cause of most businesses downfalls.........

Greed is sometimes what turns a business from being profitable to going in the red......
 
BobbyFord said:
Fools want you to believe the sport is alive and thriving because they see a green flag on Sunday.
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That was a strange comment as it is like saying K-Mart and Sears are healthy because they open up 7 days a week. I hope comments like Nascar being healthy because they race 36 times a year is more of a case of someone having a brain cramp then being fool.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
That was a strange comment as it is like saying K-Mart and Sears are healthy because they open up 7 days a week. I hope comments like Nascar being healthy because they race 36 times a year is more of a case of someone having a brain cramp then being fool.
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I think it is the word of someone struggling with reality.
 
sloggie said:
You guys are way to concerned over the fates of Millionaires and Billionaires. If NASCAR can't figure it out, then something will take it's place. Hell, the tickets will probably be cheaper and you won't need some stupid Cable Channel that you don't want.
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I don't know who "you guys" are but I know I am not the least bit concerned about the future of Nascar as yesterday could have been the final race or they could go on for 200 more years and it is all the same to me. I do find today's dichotomy interesting but not remotely concerning.
 
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