The Chase should be dumped

I don't want to totally diminish what Johnson has done. But let's face it. To win the championship in the current format, all you have to do is get yourself to the Chase and run the best you can in those final 10 races. Most drivers will take themselves out of contention. And there's no doubting Johnson and crew ramp up their game over the final 10 races. But they are basically running for the championship during 10 races, not 36.
 
I don't want to totally diminish what Johnson has done. But let's face it. To win the championship in the current format, all you have to do is get yourself to the Chase and run the best you can in those final 10 races. Most drivers will take themselves out of contention. And there's no doubting Johnson and crew ramp up their game over the final 10 races. But they are basically running for the championship during 10 races, not 36.

Yes, because it's super duper easy to get into the top 12 spots in points in order to qualify for The Chase. Get real.
 
Yes, because it's super duper easy to get into the top 12 spots in points in order to qualify for The Chase. Get real.

I'd have to AGREE, just get in the top 12 some how and then change it up. Anyway you look at it JJ will never be even remotely considered as good as Dale Sr or Petty, unless the current points system is scrapped and he wins 7 in a row under the old format. JJ is a good driver, has a great crew chief, but to put him in the same league as Petty, Pearson, Earnhardt, even DW just isn't going to happen!
 
I'd have to AGREE, just get in the top 12 some how and then change it up. Anyway you look at it JJ will never be even remotely considered as good as Dale Sr or Petty, unless the current points system is scrapped and he wins 7 in a row under the old format. JJ is a good driver, has a great crew chief, but to put him in the same league as Petty, Pearson, Earnhardt, even DW just isn't going to happen!

I'll give you that they can't be compared to one another. They were all legends in their own time, a dominating force in their own era of NASCAR. However, you can't diminish what Johnson has done simply because you don't like the rules that NASCAR has put down. What Johnson has done is...extraordinary. You can't diminish this guy's talent and ability, or Chad's genius when it comes to his strategy, both on the track and off the track.

Whether you like The Chase or not, whether you like the current rules or not. The simple fact is, Johnson has done something that will forever be remembered, and 10 years from now, 20 years from now, he will be in the NASCAR HOF, probably next to Petty and Earnhardt.
 
JJ is a good driver, has a great crew chief, but to put him in the same league as Petty, Pearson, Earnhardt, even DW just isn't going to happen!

Your right because I'd go as far as saying he's better and way more consistent than them. Sorry but 5 in a row, I don't care what sport or what era, is a pretty bad ass accomplishment. You put Chad and Jimmie in any era and they would figure it out.

Johnson is in no way shape or form my favorite driver but if some of you knuckleheads don't see what he has done as anything but a major accomplishment, then you have a rock between your ears. You can piss and moan about the Chase, they cheated (my favorite by the way), NASCAR manipulated races, etc... but facts are facts. 5 in a row.
 
Your right because I'd go as far as saying he's better and way more consistent than them. Sorry but 5 in a row, I don't care what sport or what era, is a pretty bad ass accomplishment. You put Chad and Jimmie in any era and they would figure it out.

Johnson is in no way shape or form my favorite driver but if some of you knuckleheads don't see what he has done as anything but a major accomplishment, then you have a rock between your ears. You can piss and moan about the Chase, they cheated (my favorite by the way), NASCAR manipulated races, etc... but facts are facts. 5 in a row.

A matter of opinion, but JJ is no way the caliber drivers those guys were...not even close. Come see me in 15 more years and we will go over the totals races run, wins, top 5s top 10s, and compare JJ to Earnhardt, Petty, Pearson, and DW. Like I said I'm admitting JJ is good he just isn't in the great catagory like those guys.
 
Your right because I'd go as far as saying he's better and way more consistent than them. Sorry but 5 in a row, I don't care what sport or what era, is a pretty bad ass accomplishment. You put Chad and Jimmie in any era and they would figure it out.

Johnson is in no way shape or form my favorite driver but if some of you knuckleheads don't see what he has done as anything but a major accomplishment, then you have a rock between your ears. You can piss and moan about the Chase, they cheated (my favorite by the way), NASCAR manipulated races, etc... but facts are facts. 5 in a row.

:beerbang:
 
Your right because I'd go as far as saying he's better and way more consistent than them. Sorry but 5 in a row, I don't care what sport or what era, is a pretty bad ass accomplishment. You put Chad and Jimmie in any era and they would figure it out.Johnson is in no way shape or form my favorite driver but if some of you knuckleheads don't see what he has done as anything but a major accomplishment, then you have a rock between your ears. You can piss and moan about the Chase, they cheated (my favorite by the way), NASCAR manipulated races, etc... but facts are facts. 5 in a row.

Interesting you should put it that way though. Basiacally admitting that it's not Jimmie that the great driver, but that it's the two of them together that are getting it done.
 
Interesting you should put it that way though. Basiacally admitting that it's not Jimmie that the great driver, but that it's the two of them together that are getting it done.

I dunno, back in 2006 Johnson was able to win the Daytona 500 and two of the first three races after that without Chad. Chad was serving a suspension for making an illegal adjustment on the rear window of the car after the Daytona 500 qualifying run.

I think alone, they are great drivers and crew chiefs, but together they are a power house.
 
I dunno, back in 2006 Johnson was able to win the Daytona 500 and two of the first three races after that without Chad. Chad was serving a suspension for making an illegal adjustment on the rear window of the car after the Daytona 500 qualifying run.

I think alone, they are great drivers and crew chiefs, but together they are a power house.
You don't think Chad was in front of a TV with two-way coms between he, the war wagon and and the crew and he called about every shot in the race?
 
You don't think Chad was in front of a TV with two-way coms between he, the war wagon and and the crew and he called about every shot in the race?

Actually, I'd bet most on here think that Chad was up in Bill France's suite @ the track calling the race. :D
 
Got any proof?
I didn't personally see him making calls but, in a 2006 aeticle on SPEEDTV.com, it's stated: "Knaus is not allowed in the garage area, but NASCAR spokesman Jim Hunter said Knaus is allowed to call and e-mail the team.

I was still watching all the races on TV back then and it was a joke among the commentators. In fact, it was admitted on television by, among others, Chad himself that he was in constant communication with the track, pretty much as I described, in more than a couple of interviews. As I recall Rick himself stated that the affect of Knause's "Being benched" was marginal.

The whole sad story was really put into focus two or three years ago when Junior's crew chief was thus penalized for the first New Hampshire race. He was shown atop a camper on the back stretch, watching the race and giving orders to the pit crew via cell phone.
 
I didn't personally see him making calls but, in a 2006 aeticle on SPEEDTV.com, it's stated: "Knaus is not allowed in the garage area, but NASCAR spokesman Jim Hunter said Knaus is allowed to call and e-mail the team.

I was still watching all the races on TV back then and it was a joke among the commentators. In fact, it was admitted on television by, among others, Chad himself that he was in constant communication with the track, pretty much as I described, in more than a couple of interviews. As I recall Rick himself stated that the affect of Knause's "Being benched" was marginal.

The whole sad story was really put into focus two or three years ago when Junior's crew chief was thus penalized for the first New Hampshire race. He was shown atop a camper on the back stretch, watching the race and giving orders to the pit crew via cell phone.

He still won't believe it JG.
 
I didn't personally see him making calls but, in a 2006 aeticle on SPEEDTV.com, it's stated: "Knaus is not allowed in the garage area, but NASCAR spokesman Jim Hunter said Knaus is allowed to call and e-mail the team.

I was still watching all the races on TV back then and it was a joke among the commentators. In fact, it was admitted on television by, among others, Chad himself that he was in constant communication with the track, pretty much as I described, in more than a couple of interviews. As I recall Rick himself stated that the affect of Knause's "Being benched" was marginal.

The whole sad story was really put into focus two or three years ago when Junior's crew chief was thus penalized for the first New Hampshire race. He was shown atop a camper on the back stretch, watching the race and giving orders to the pit crew via cell phone.

HAHA, that's awesome. NASCAR really messed up on that one didn't they? Ahh gotta love Chad. :D
 
Interesting you should put it that way though. Basiacally admitting that it's not Jimmie that the great driver, but that it's the two of them together that are getting it done.

Don't try to spin it like that. No driver can win a championship without a great crew chief, you know that.
 
HAHA, that's awesome. NASCAR really messed up on that one didn't they? Ahh gotta love Chad. :D
I really like situational values. First you just doubt that he would do such a thing ("You got proof?") and then it's a big "Wahoo!" when you see that NA__AR actually allowed him to do it?

I bet that you're fine with Carl Long getting a $200K fine plus full race suspension for a first-time infraction which NA__AR admits wasn't entirely his fault, while Knause has 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, count 'em SEVEN, infractions and all he's received are basically slaps on the wrist?

It seems kind of myopic to me, or maybe it's just a generational thing?
 
I really like situational values. First you just doubt that he would do such a thing ("You got proof?") and then it's a big "Wahoo!" when you see that NA__AR actually allowed him to do it?

I bet that you're fine with Carl Long getting a $200K fine plus full race suspension for a first-time infraction which NA__AR admits wasn't entirely his fault, while Knause has 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, count 'em SEVEN, infractions and all he's received are basically slaps on the wrist?

It seems kind of myopic to me, or maybe it's just a generational thing?

That's the typical 48 fan.There is always 1 of them every year.
 
I really like situational values. First you just doubt that he would do such a thing ("You got proof?") and then it's a big "Wahoo!" when you see that NA__AR actually allowed him to do it?

I bet that you're fine with Carl Long getting a $200K fine plus full race suspension for a first-time infraction which NA__AR admits wasn't entirely his fault, while Knause has 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, count 'em SEVEN, infractions and all he's received are basically slaps on the wrist?

It seems kind of myopic to me, or maybe it's just a generational thing?

Hey, it should've been a foregone conclusion with NASCAR that Chad would've still been in constant contact with his racing team. Chad didn't break the term of his suspension.
 
Originally Posted by John Galt
I really like situational values. First you just doubt that he would do such a thing ("You got proof?") and then it's a big "Wahoo!" when you see that NA__AR actually allowed him to do it?

I bet that you're fine with Carl Long getting a $200K fine plus full race suspension for a first-time infraction which NA__AR admits wasn't entirely his fault, while Knause has 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, count 'em SEVEN, infractions and all he's received are basically slaps on the wrist?

It seems kind of myopic to me, or maybe it's just a generational thing?

Hey, it should've been a foregone conclusion with NASCAR that Chad would've still been in constant contact with his racing team. Chad didn't break the term of his suspension.
A great big thank you for making my point.
 
That's the typical 48 fan.There is always 1 of them every year.
I don't think that it's confined to the #48 fans. It's typical of driver fans en toto. Race fans tend to be more objective, with driver loyalty comes second to ethical behaviour. It's my bad. I guess that I shouldn't expect a driver fan to understand the concept.
 
I don't think that it's confined to the #48 fans. It's typical of driver fans en toto. Race fans tend to be more objective, with driver loyalty comes second to ethical behaviour. It's my bad. I guess that I shouldn't expect a driver fan to understand the concept.

You would have a point if Chad actually violated the terms of his suspension, he did not. NASCAR gave him the authority to remain in contact with his team via cell phone and e-mail. He did so.

Where's the conflict with ethical behavior?

EDIT: Also according to Wikipedia, Chad Knaus has only has two infractions, not seven. He was fined for cussing on the TV, but who the Hel cares about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Knaus
 
I don't think that it's confined to the #48 fans. It's typical of driver fans en toto. Race fans tend to be more objective, with driver loyalty comes second to ethical behaviour. It's my bad. I guess that I shouldn't expect a driver fan to understand the concept.

Yeah your right every fan does it but JJ's fan do seem to do it ALOT more.
 
You would have a point if Chad actually violated the terms of his suspension, he did not. NASCAR gave him the authority to remain in contact with his team via cell phone and e-mail. He did so.

Where's the conflict with ethical behavior?

EDIT: Also according to Wikipedia, Chad Knaus has only has two infractions, not seven. He was fined for cussing on the TV, but who the Hel cares about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Knaus
"According to Wikipedia..." You have Wikipedia, that arbiter of all things intelligent and the Walmart of Internet knowledge. I have the lowly publication, Sports Illustrated. I'll let the rest of the readers decide the veracity of my figures (the defining stat in in the fourth paragraph, I believe):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/web/COM1055220/index.htm

Like so many, you seem to have a problem with the concept of "Intent," as it correlates to rules and penalties. You're in good company.
 
Yeah your right every fan does it but JJ's fan do seem to do it ALOT more.
Naw. I don't think they can hold a candle to Jeffie-Pooh's legions of gals with a mommy complex, back when he first started full time in Cup back in 1993. I don't think the #48 fans are even close to Junior's fans when he's actually doing something of note on the track. In the past twenty years I think I'd rank the #48 fans around 3th or 4th in myopic views of the sport.
 
"According to Wikipedia..." You have Wikipedia, that arbiter of all things intelligent and the Walmart of Internet knowledge. I have the lowly publication, Sports Illustrated. I'll let the rest of the readers decide the veracity of my figures (the defining stat in in the fourth paragraph, I believe):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/web/COM1055220/index.htm

Like so many, you seem to have a problem with the concept of "Intent," as it correlates to rules and penalties. You're in good company.

Too bad SI didn't list the infraction, and comon, one of them was for knocking over a plastic Powerade bottle in Victory Lane. That's the stupidest "infraction" I've ever heard of, it's not even worth mentioning, kinda like when Chad cursed on TV.
 
Too bad SI didn't list the infraction, and comon, one of them was for knocking over a plastic Powerade bottle in Victory Lane. That's the stupidest "infraction" I've ever heard of, it's not even worth mentioning, kinda like when Chad cursed on TV.

Get a room,will ya.
 
Get a room,will ya.

You seem really fixated on me having a homosexual relationship with Johnson or Chad, I mean really fixated.

There's a man I'd like for you to meet, his name is Sigmund Freud.

sigmundfreud.jpg
 
Too bad SI didn't list the infraction, and comon, one of them was for knocking over a plastic Powerade bottle in Victory Lane. That's the stupidest "infraction" I've ever heard of, it's not even worth mentioning, kinda like when Chad cursed on TV.
OK, Hoss. I did a really quick search of soem of Chad's infractions and here are just the first three I found:
• Feb. 13, 2006: Ejected from Daytona 500 activities as a result of illegal rear-window modifications found in post-qualifying inspection. The car's qualifying time was disallowed, and eight days later NASCAR announced a $25,000 fine and a suspension that would ultimately cover four races.

• March 15, 2005: Fined $35,000, suspended for two races, and docked 25 points for a roof height that was found to be too low in inspection following an event at Las Vegas.

• May 27, 2003: Fined $2,500 for unapproved use of refrigerant near the fuel system discovered in inspection prior to qualifying for the Coca-Cola 600.

You say there have been only two and I've found, with literally no effort, three. Since you are obviously wrong, I think I'll go with SI, since their auto sports staff know more about the sport, and followi it closer than either of us do.
 
OK, Hoss. I did a really quick search of soem of Chad's infractions and here are just the first three I found:
• Feb. 13, 2006: Ejected from Daytona 500 activities as a result of illegal rear-window modifications found in post-qualifying inspection. The car's qualifying time was disallowed, and eight days later NASCAR announced a $25,000 fine and a suspension that would ultimately cover four races.

• March 15, 2005: Fined $35,000, suspended for two races, and docked 25 points for a roof height that was found to be too low in inspection following an event at Las Vegas.

• May 27, 2003: Fined $2,500 for unapproved use of refrigerant near the fuel system discovered in inspection prior to qualifying for the Coca-Cola 600.

You say there have been only two and I've found, with literally no effort, three. Since you are obviously wrong, I think I'll go with SI, since their auto sports staff know more about the sport, and followi it closer than either of us do.

Well, at least you proven one point, NASCAR doesn't let the Chad/Johnson team off the hook. So yay for you! :D

I think we can put away the black helicopters now.
 
This has gotten into a big debate about Jimmie Johnson instead of dumping the Chase, but I guess if you aren't a fan of JJ, you're sure to want to dump the Chase.

John, as an old fan of the sport, you know the history of conspiracy within the sport. Earnhardt, Petty, Chevrolet, Roush, etc. The one thing that is common in all of these cases is success. It's clear that Johnson is not a favorite of older fans, but I've seen the rise of Jeff Gordon in the same way as Jimmie. I've heard all the stories from fans to owners in what has been described as showing favoritism. I used to work with a guy who was an owner of a Busch Series team, (remember Texas Pete and Cheerwine as sponsors?) who told me of all kinds of stories about how NASCAR would tell a team what the "would like" for the result to be, but never told them they had to "lose". I didn't, and still don't doubt Bobby in what he said, but it just fits too many stories right down to the number of the winner for me to give total credence. But even at that, this sport is all about finding an audience and making money. Big Bill found the equation and though it's been changed over the years, it's still working pretty good. And if you say well heck, it's fixed, look at the popularity of pro wrestling, even when everyone knows it's fixed. Whether or not NASCAR is giving Johnson's crew a pass is irrelevant now. What has happened has happened and that team now has it's fan base and it will grow. The question now is will NASCAR continue to grow? And of course we have had many debates about that.
 
This has gotten into a big debate about Jimmie Johnson instead of dumping the Chase, but I guess if you aren't a fan of JJ, you're sure to want to dump the Chase.

John, as an old fan of the sport, you know the history of conspiracy within the sport. Earnhardt, Petty, Chevrolet, Roush, etc. The one thing that is common in all of these cases is success. It's clear that Johnson is not a favorite of older fans, but I've seen the rise of Jeff Gordon in the same way as Jimmie. I've heard all the stories from fans to owners in what has been described as showing favoritism. I used to work with a guy who was an owner of a Busch Series team, (remember Texas Pete and Cheerwine as sponsors?) who told me of all kinds of stories about how NASCAR would tell a team what the "would like" for the result to be, but never told them they had to "lose". I didn't, and still don't doubt Bobby in what he said, but it just fits too many stories right down to the number of the winner for me to give total credence. But even at that, this sport is all about finding an audience and making money. Big Bill found the equation and though it's been changed over the years, it's still working pretty good. And if you say well heck, it's fixed, look at the popularity of pro wrestling, even when everyone knows it's fixed. Whether or not NASCAR is giving Johnson's crew a pass is irrelevant now. What has happened has happened and that team now has it's fan base and it will grow. The question now is will NASCAR continue to grow? And of course we have had many debates about that.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'll take the hit. I just got kinda of got sucked into the debate. Mea culpa, mea culpa, maxima mea culpa.

As far as conspiracies go, have you EVER seen a racing series, or a track with a weekly program where conspiracy didn't show up on a regular basis? The only one I can personally think of, which I am familiar with, was the old AAA Indy Series when Henry Banks was running it. Shortly after USAC took over the drama queens began to show up regularly.

I have never believed that Bill Sr. or Bill jr., or even this putz who runs things now EVER "Fixed" the outcome of a race. But, I think the proof is undeniable that , as Huxley said in Animal Farm, "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others," and this is a fact of life with NASCAR and the new NA__AR.

All that siad and in staying with the topic, I am firmly in the group that thinks this playoff format is just another way to manipulate the series. It was wrong when it was devised and it gets more and more wrong each passing season, IMNSVHO.

You make an excellent point when you make the analogy to professional wrestling. To me, that's what NA__AR has become. In years past, as you can remember, the entertainment was about the racing and also the stock cars themselves, because the fans could relate to the cars. Today the entertainment is all about the soap opera crap which is placed in front of us on an almost 24/7 basis. It's no longer about the races themselves and the racing on the track. It's about "The big picture," and winning is no longer a priority; the important thing is to "Have a good points day." The quality of a race is no longer determined by action on the track, it's about phony stats like "Lead changes" and "Number of cars finishing on the lead lap." It's been gimmick ed up with the Lucky Dawg, Chosen 35 and such just as much as wrestling has been populated with physical freaks who pop steroids like a five year old chomps cookies.

You used to work with a guy who was a BGN team owner? Those obviously were the days when a guy with a bit of money to spend, a good mechanical ability and a love for the sport could compete. Now, you have to be a shrewd businessman, have an in with multiple financial institutions and a love of the sport is no longer a requirement. It's now just another speculative business.

It's a whole new world that I don't, and have no real desire to relate to. So, I just follow things from afar and live with my memories of when I actually liked NASCAR.
 
People, the black helicopter insult is pretty much over and done with - thankfully:D
 
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'll take the hit. I just got kinda of got sucked into the debate. Mea culpa, mea culpa, maxima mea culpa.

As far as conspiracies go, have you EVER seen a racing series, or a track with a weekly program where conspiracy didn't show up on a regular basis? The only one I can personally think of, which I am familiar with, was the old AAA Indy Series when Henry Banks was running it. Shortly after USAC took over the drama queens began to show up regularly.

I have never believed that Bill Sr. or Bill jr., or even this putz who runs things now EVER "Fixed" the outcome of a race. But, I think the proof is undeniable that , as Huxley said in Animal Farm, "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others," and this is a fact of life with NASCAR and the new NA__AR.



All that siad and in staying with the topic, I am firmly in the group that thinks this playoff format is just another way to manipulate the series. It was wrong when it was devised and it gets more and more wrong each passing season, IMNSVHO.

You make an excellent point when you make the analogy to professional wrestling. To me, that's what NA__AR has become. In years past, as you can remember, the entertainment was about the racing and also the stock cars themselves, because the fans could relate to the cars. Today the entertainment is all about the soap opera crap which is placed in front of us on an almost 24/7 basis. It's no longer about the races themselves and the racing on the track. It's about "The big picture," and winning is no longer a priority; the important thing is to "Have a good points day." The quality of a race is no longer determined by action on the track, it's about phony stats like "Lead changes" and "Number of cars finishing on the lead lap." It's been gimmick ed up with the Lucky Dawg, Chosen 35 and such just as much as wrestling has been populated with physical freaks who pop steroids like a five year old chomps cookies.

You used to work with a guy who was a BGN team owner? Those obviously were the days when a guy with a bit of money to spend, a good mechanical ability and a love for the sport could compete. Now, you have to be a shrewd businessman, have an in with multiple financial institutions and a love of the sport is no longer a requirement. It's now just another speculative business.

It's a whole new world that I don't, and have no real desire to relate to. So, I just follow things from afar and live with my memories of when I actually liked NASCAR.
Some very good points there. In older times, racing was a sport that the drivers and owners just wanted to race because they loved it. The pay was lousy, but that didn't matter to those guys. It was the thrill of getting out there and beating the other guys. These days, NASCAR is a business first and foremost. The drivers might have begun their careers in the way the old vets did, but many of them have been guided through the system to become what they are today. But back to the business end of the sport. Let's take two incidents by two very different teams. One team is owned by Joe Nemechek and the other team is owned by Joe Gibbs. Both cars have been found to be have illegal metal in the frame. (I know, but this is just an example. Joe could never afford this sort of thing anyway). Let's say that NASCAR has had in it's invisible rule book that if a team is found to have illegal metal in the frame, that team will be disqualified for six races, with no one on the team able to even attend the races. Now if this happed individually, NASCAR probably would have implemented the action in Joe's case. Joe pretty much funds his own car and is seldom a factor in any race. However, let's say that it was Denny Hamlin's car that was found to have the illegal metal. Now NASCAR has to think about the financial crisis this could cause not only for Gibbs, but for NASCAR as a whole. FedEx pays a lot of money for their car to be seen each and every race. If they are put in a position where there wouldn't be a FedEx car in six races, the next time they are asked to be a full time sponsor, they just might decide on taking a different course, quite possibly putting less money into the sport. So now NASCAR has a dilemma. In Joe's case, the action would go far in making a point that teams better not do something like this. On the other hand, in Denny's case, NASCAR has to protect the interests of big sponsors and would probably put Denny on probation, suspend the CC for the six races and dock a boat load of points from the team. But the car would still be able to race and be seen by the millions of fans on TV and otherwise.

It's a fine line, but do you shoot yourself in your foot or try working around it?
 
Naw. I don't think they can hold a candle to Jeffie-Pooh's legions of gals with a mommy complex, back when he first started full time in Cup back in 1993. I don't think the #48 fans are even close to Junior's fans when he's actually doing something of note on the track. In the past twenty years I think I'd rank the #48 fans around 3th or 4th in myopic views of the sport.

Yep agree.
 
The little girl Kasey Kahne fans are terrible too. For that matter all the teenage girl fans.

Well Andy...I'm sure "no little girl" fan, I've cheered for Kasey since he took over the 9 ride from Elliot, so I'd say there is quite the diversity of fans when it comes to a driver fan base.
 
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