The Masters

Revman

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I will either get a ton of agreement here, or I will get blistered. I really don't care either way, but I just have to post this in regard to today's Masters....

1) The start time was moved up hours to avoid weather.....Again, many scoffed at this in regard to NASCAR. It can be done, obviously, 2) I have yet to see a thread on any board anywhere (I looked) entitled: Was this a Good Golf Tournament?, 3) Nobody commented on the size of the gallery, 4) No complaints about the coverage.....Know what people are talking about? The event. NASCAR Nation is its own worst enemy.
 

gnomesayin

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1) The start time was moved up hours to avoid weather.....Again, many scoffed at this in regard to NASCAR. It can be done, obviously,
I haven't really witnessed this when race start times are moved up for weather. One can always find isolated complaints about anything.

2) I have yet to see a thread on any board anywhere (I looked) entitled: Was this a Good Golf Tournament?,
Yeah, I sorta agree. Obviously many enjoy rating the races as a way of giving quick opinions, and I don't want to bag on @ToyYoda's work tallying them up. I used to post on movie forums, and sure enough, one way to guarantee more posting activity was with frequent "Rate Movie X" threads.

There are two reasons I don't personally participate. One is that the rating scale isn't used consistently and there is no real agreement on what a 5/10 or 7/10 race means. Some never go below 7, others consider 5 to be average, etc. The second is that I also follow other sports and many other racing series, and I never see so much reflexive instant assessment of the 'quality' of each event. Ratings can be fun, but there is an implicit attitude in some of these polls, whether it's on forums or Twitter, that if a particular race was poor, NASCAR must jump in and fix the problem. I would argue that NASCAR feeds this with their constant insecure tinkering, but truly the two attitudes feed each other.

3) Nobody commented on the size of the gallery,
In this case, the comments have been speculating on how huge the TV ratings will be. The gallery was overflowing and of course had remarkable energy given the result.

4) No complaints about the coverage.....Know what people are talking about? The event. NASCAR Nation is its own worst enemy.
Disagree here. I don't watch any sporting events about which assessment of announcers and production aren't a frequent topic for criticism or praise.
 

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I watched the last four holes, and I'm not a golf fan whatsoever. But that was/is a fantastic story. Tiger self inflicted himself with a ton of problems. But over time he overcame and conquered again. AMERICA!!! At it's best in the sports world. I am proud for him. A great day for golf, no doubt.
 

Snappy D

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I asked while watching it but what would be the NASCAR equivalent of Tiger’s Win yesterday? Dale’s 98 Daytona Win after everyone had written him off a horrible 97 season? Jeff Gordon winning the 2014 Brickyard 20 years after winning the first one and in the middle of a late career championship title shot that stalled at Texas? Maybe it hasn’t happened yet? (Something Like Gordon coming out of retirement and winning the Daytona 500? Maybe Jr doing that or Smoke coming back to race in the Indy 500). Tiger’s win yesterday transcended so many barriers, it melted down every form of social media and was the top news story on many a broadcast, I think it’d be awesome if something like that happened to NASCAR.
 

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How many NASCAR fanatics tune into golf on a regular basis?
 

AdoubleU24

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Also, how about that drama that got to unfold organically and wasn't meticulously constructed by the sanctioning body? Nothing like it.

Honestly, the prestige of golf in general and particularly Augusta and The Masters with always trounce anything and everything in motorsports. It just is what it is. And it mostly has to do with the venue. It's like a secret garden or an enchanted world that we only get to set eyes on very sparingly, and when you do, it's breathtaking - it's the most perfectly maintained piece of land in the world. Even their gift shop is only open to the public 1 week out of the year. The mystery of the course alone is enough to make you want to watch. Oh yeah, they have a lottery system just to be able to get the opportunity to purchase tickets. There's no demand anywhere in motorsports like that.
 

Snappy D

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How many NASCAR fanatics tune into golf on a regular basis?
Me! I’ll be know to flip to PGA Tour during a race, I’m a huge fan of golf. Have been since Tiger’s first year in 96(Nike) but have grown to love the sport itself. I watch even if he’s not in contention or playing that particular week.
 
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I agree that the whole "rate the race" or "was it a good race?" thing is pretty particular to racing in general, and I think this is in large part because no other sport (besides maybe golf) has the factor of venue molding the actual "product", and then only racing alone has the factor of setting up a expense piece of machinery, the cars, to produce a certain type or style of product. Sanctioning bodies around the world try to figure out what they need to do to the cars and tracks to generate "good racing" - whatever the prevailing opinion of that might be. There's not a whole lot the stick & ball sports can do that fundamentally change the sport year-to-year since the product depends more on personnel working within their own system. Different teams have different styles of play and that's part of what makes it okay; you don't have to watch a certain team if you don't like their system. Most complaints in traditional sports center more around officiating and a team being "too good" over a period of time. Is there anything the NCAA can do to limit Alabama's effectiveness on defense in football? Is the NBA going to change the rules of basketball to undermine the Warriors' success? No, and I'm not even sure how they would really do that. When you start talking about downforce levels, horsepower levels, types of different tracks, there's really nothing else that has so many factors that can affect what goes on on the field of play.
 

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Dale Jr coming out of retirement to win the Daytona 500

would be an emotionally close comparison to Tiger's win. IMHO

===

I read Tiger's book about his 18 favorite holes. It didn't mention a word about Augusta.
careful... :eek:
 

Revman

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I asked while watching it but what would be the NASCAR equivalent of Tiger’s Win yesterday? Dale’s 98 Daytona Win after everyone had written him off a horrible 97 season? Jeff Gordon winning the 2014 Brickyard 20 years after winning the first one and in the middle of a late career championship title shot that stalled at Texas? Maybe it hasn’t happened yet? (Something Like Gordon coming out of retirement and winning the Daytona 500? Maybe Jr doing that or Smoke coming back to race in the Indy 500). Tiger’s win yesterday transcended so many barriers, it melted down every form of social media and was the top news story on many a broadcast, I think it’d be awesome if something like that happened to NASCAR.
I ask this honestly....without snark.....Could there be a NASCAR equivalent? This could be discussed on many levels, but in the context of celebrating the sport? No. Not at this time. NASCAR Nation tears down a great story as soon as it presents itself for reasons I cannot understand. 2015 is a great story that has been repeatedly shredded around here as an example.
How many NASCAR fanatics tune into golf on a regular basis?
Not me....but I did for this one, and maybe that is the point.
I read Tiger's book about his 18 favorite holes. It didn't mention a word about Augusta.
...and to your point....this could have served as a basis for tearing Tiger's win down, but somehow Golf Nation is united in celebrating this while putting aside for the time being Tiger's indiscretions with women. What happened on the course has taken center stage. Very interesting IMO. Golf fans are taking care of their sport. NASCAR fans? Not so much IMO.
 

Revman

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I haven't really witnessed this when race start times are moved up for weather. One can always find isolated complaints about anything.
...and this is my point....I have never understood why even God cannot significantly move a race starting time. Very valid reasons have been given for this, but somehow the PGA pulled it off. I have always contended that moving the start time wouldn't be as devastating to viewership as moving a race to a work day, and apparently the people who run golf feel the same way.
 

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Now Tony Stewart's 2011 run (especially the Chase) was epic, come from behind, legendary stuff of NASCAR history.
 

Snappy D

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I ask this honestly....without snark.....Could there be a NASCAR equivalent? This could be discussed on many levels, but in the context of celebrating the sport? No. Not at this time. NASCAR Nation tears down a great story as soon as it presents itself for reasons I cannot understand. 2015 is a great story that has been repeatedly shredded around here as an example.
2015 wasn’t that great of a story to me. Your guy needed a waiver to win the championship because he got hurt racing in the minor league race the day before the season started. That’s your guy and that’s great, you should be happy. But those are the honest to goodness facts. I think there are miserable fans that look to tear down sports stories no matter the sport, you need to comb social media a little harder if you can’t find anyone being miserable about Tiger. The theme of I can’t forgive the guy because he cheated on his wife with multiple women is the Big narrative but a guys private life is everyone’s business I guess. But to stay on topic.... I think NASCAR fans are passionate for their sport and driver to a point where it clouds their judgement on certain issues.
 

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I watched the last four holes, and I'm not a golf fan whatsoever. But that was/is a fantastic story. Tiger self inflicted himself with a ton of problems. But over time he overcame and conquered again. AMERICA!!! At it's best in the sports world. I am proud for him. A great day for golf, no doubt.
With nothing much on yesterday I planned to watch starting later in the day. Our son came over and said that the Masters was on early, so we started watching around hole 15. We all were glued to the TV (and we are not golf fans) to watch what was left. Very entertaining. What I don't get is why does everyone like Tiger? I was pulling for him too, but with all the crap he has pulled in his life I just don't see him as the nice guy he seems to be on TV. The only time I ever saw him in person was at a casino in the Bahama's playing cards, drinking and smoking a big cigar.
 

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NASCAR and golf have faced similar issues over the last 10-15 years. The FedEx Cup is golf's version of the Chase, they redid the schedule this year to get away from football as much as possible, courses that were built during the Tiger boom have closed, become dog tracks or sold off 9 holes, membership levels at "typical" private clubs are down, TV ratings have been up and down (several down) etc. But, the struggles are nothing relative to the shrinkage NASCAR has seen.

Both sports are driven by individual personalities and sponsorship money. The biggest difference is golf has had better leadership over the years. As a result, there's been more conviction to stick with their traditions while evolving enough to stay relevant/interesting. The Masters tells CBS what to do to the point that certain vocabulary must be used for this tournament only. Famous on course reporter Gary McCord is still not allowed on the property since his comments regarding the 17th green in 1994.

The Masters is so steeped in tradition. The course is visually spectacular which draws non golf fans in. Augusta National truly is about the optics.

Two months ago the sport was in Scottsdale for the Waste Management , aka the People's Major, which is basically a keg party for 200k people.
 

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Tigers personal failures aside, It was a compelling story. I'm betting if we knew all the ins and outs of our favorite drivers, we may not be so enamored with them. I will never post nor repeat some stories I've been told about some of the sports biggest names. I cannot validate them, would't tell them if I could. We often admire a manufactured persona. I recall Jeff Gordons very public personal indiscretions. Hated it for him and the sport. A lot of people love to see the mighty fall. I guess they glean some sort of enjoyment from the spectacle. Tiger, like most every human I've ever known made some really bad choices. He paid dearly for them. Yesterday proved what A human can overcome. He fell from the top of the mountain, with hard work and dedication he climbed back to the top. Good for him.
As far as a NASCAR equivalent, maybe the Chevies get figured out and JJ wins the Daytona 500 after he's written off? I don't know.
 

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I'm sorry, I thought this was the Nascar forum not the sports and entertainment forum. I guess that I or somebody else needs to get their glasses checked.
 

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I'm sorry, I thought this was the Nascar forum not the sports and entertainment forum. I guess that I or somebody else needs to get their glasses checked.
I think there's been some good parallels being drawn with NASCAR to make this an interesting/relevant topic. Had it not been here the discussion might not be quite as strong.

I get wanting to keep this board very much NASCAR-centric but in order to have certain conversations you need to pull from other things.
 

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In case anyone was wondering about the Tiger effect in majors on NASCAR ratings; NASCAR dodges a huge bullet

The PGA is the same weekend as All-Star weekend so almost no direct competition
The US Open falls on NASCAR's off week in June
The Open Championship will conclude just before the green flag drops at New Hampshire

NASCAR needs a good race at Talladega. That place still oozes cool. We're nearing summer and the travel months. Time to get some mojo back.....
 

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I remember a driver by the name of Kyle Busch, one of the great sports comebacks. Returns to his winning ways after some serious injuries
That was a great comeback story too, but doesn't compare on magnitude. It would need to be KB getting to 99 Cup wins and 7 Championships by 2024, being universally considered the GOAT, and then having a debilitating back injury in a wreck, having 2 spinal surgeries and a spinal fusion, being hindered from driving for a decade, then returning in 2034 to win the Daytona 500 for #100.

Even, all of that, doesn't move the needle as much as Tiger does. It's a phenomenon all to itself. NASCAR does not currently possess this type of beloved mythic legendary figure. The only ones that even came close were Dale, Jeff, and Junior.

This, as is, is a heartfelt story of personal redemption for a guy that thought he was toast.
 

Snappy D

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That was a great comeback story too, but doesn't compare on magnitude. It would need to be KB getting to 99 Cup wins and 7 Championships by 2024, being universally considered the GOAT, and then having a debilitating back injury in a wreck, having 2 spinal surgeries and a spinal fusion, being hindered from driving for a decade, then returning in 2034 to win the Daytona 500 for #100.

Even, all of that, doesn't move the needle as much as Tiger does. It's a phenomenon all to itself. NASCAR does not currently possess this type of beloved mythic legendary figure. The only ones that even came close were Dale, Jeff, and Junior.

This, as is, is a heartfelt story of personal redemption for a guy that thought he was toast.
Thats what people dont get....... Jeff was a Cultural Pop figure, he starred in a Pepsi commercial with Britney Spears! Jeff moved the needle in the 90's, I'd say he was our Tiger.
 

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Thats what people dont get....... Jeff was a Cultural Pop figure, he starred in a Pepsi commercial with Britney Spears! Jeff moved the needle in the 90's, I'd say he was our Tiger.
I think you're right. Dale Jr. was the darling of the base. Gordon had people who never would have watched a NASCAR race talking about NASCAR.
 

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Thats what people dont get....... Jeff was a Cultural Pop figure, he starred in a Pepsi commercial with Britney Spears! Jeff moved the needle in the 90's, I'd say he was our Tiger.
Yeah, not really following on that one, he moved the needle for sure, that's what I was sayin'. Are you saying you would elevate his popularity a notch above Dale and Junior? Or just that he was more transcendent for the sport than them? If we're doing direct comparison to Tiger popularity... I don't think it's particularly that close when you venture outside of the nascar and golf world.
 

Get That 88 Up There !!

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Thats what people dont get....... Jeff was a Cultural Pop figure, he starred in a Pepsi commercial with Britney Spears! Jeff moved the needle in the 90's, I'd say he was our Tiger.
Agree heavily with this. When Gordon started his rise is when you saw higher tv ratings, tracks building more and more seats, and tons of merchandise being sold. Dale Sr and Jr played big parts as well, but Gordon was the needle, as is Tiger
 

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I absolutely believe that Gordon's impact on NASCAR is similar to Tiger's impact on golf. There's 4 people that absolutely lived up to their hype during my sports watching life; Jeff Gordon, LeBron James, Tiger Woods and Sidney Crosby. All 4 were basically childhood phenoms that turned out to be among the most transcending athletes in North American sports history. I knew Gordon from his Saturday Night Thunder days. ESPN did a helluva job getting his name out to the casual sports fan in the early 90's.

Both Gordon and Tiger came along at the perfect time; after the baseball strike. People tend forget how big of deal the baseball strike was in 1994. It took years for MLB to recover. Some would argue it never truly has in certain markets. It basically destroyed the Expos franchise in Montreal. Gordon won the Brickyard 400 only a few days before the strike. Corporate America immediately took notice to the 400k people that day at IMS and the ridiculous tv ratings. The sport took off to heights that were never imaginable even 6 months earlier at Daytona.

The other thing happened in 1994 was the World Cup in the United States. Despite attracting huge crowds it would take another 10-15 years for that sport to gain legitimate traction in this country via the MLS. To this day, despite the major downturn, there's still more of an appetite for auto racing than there is soccer.
 

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Yeah, not really following on that one, he moved the needle for sure, that's what I was sayin'. Are you saying you would elevate his popularity a notch above Dale and Junior? Or just that he was more transcendent for the sport than them? If we're doing direct comparison to Tiger popularity... I don't think it's particularly that close when you venture outside of the nascar and golf world.
He was more transcendent than Sr ( except maybe in the South), the guy hosted SNL. Jr gives Jeff a run with Budweiser and staring in Talladega Nights and that 3 Doors Down video with Tony
 

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Agree heavily with this. When Gordon started his rise is when you saw higher tv ratings, tracks building more and more seats, and tons of merchandise being sold. Dale Sr and Jr played big parts as well, but Gordon was the needle, as is Tiger
We're splitting hairs here on who's responsible, and Jeff was a star perhaps the biggest star, but I think the argument could be made that Dale Sr was just as instrumental in Jeff's rise to pop stardom. They both needed each other to create the NASCAR explosion that we saw.
 

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He was more transcendent than Sr ( except maybe in the South), the guy hosted SNL. Jr gives Jeff a run with Budweiser and staring in Talladega Nights and that 3 Doors Down video with Tony
Yeah I agree with that, and the biggest thing he has in common with Tiger as far as transcending the sport. I would still say a ton of people know who Dale Earnhardt is outside of the sport as well, or have at least heard of his name.
 

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The other major thing that happened in 1994 was Michael Jordan was playing baseball for Birmingham Barons while MLB was on strike. That created a huge twist in sports marketing.

Jeff Gordon came along at absolutely the right time. His win at the Brickyard in its inaugural year couldn't have been bigger imo. It was similar to Tiger winning the Masters in such dominant fashion. Had his first major victory been a 1 stroke win at the PGA the rocket ship might not have taken off at such a high speed. But to do it at Augusta (with its racial history) by crushing everyone?!? That was historical. Likewise, had Gordon's two wins in 1994 been the 600 and Michigan things likely would have played out a bit different. But he won at a place where many thought stock cars and "rednecks" had no place. But then a 23 year old (2 days shy of 24) California kid with an open wheel background won in the perfect 90's looking car that changed a lot of people's mind. Ironically, because another California driver (Irvan) blew a tire with only a few laps left.

What helped Tiger too was the 1996 Masters. Before the golf world had a Tiger there was a Shark that ruled the world. Norman's collapse in the 1996 Masters basically erased him for worldwide contention. Norman was hugely popular figure in the late 80's early 90's. He had a nickname and is own logo/clothing line via Reebok. Faldo, who won in '96 was about as boring as it gets despite being one of the Top 20 golfers ever. Golf desperately needed Tiger to assume the reigns when he did.
 

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We're splitting hairs here on who's responsible, and Jeff was a star perhaps the biggest star, but I think the argument could be made that Dale Sr was just as instrumental in Jeff's rise to pop stardom. They both needed each other to create the NASCAR explosion that we saw.
Earnhardt really didn't take on his persona until the black number 3 took the track in '88. He had the dust up at Richmond with Waltrip before that but it was the car that truly gave him his identity. I think Bill Elliott and to some extent DW were just as important as Earnhart in terms of raising the sport popularity in the 1980's. Elliott really brought another element to the sport with his Winston Million/SI Cover and speed records. DW was the outspoken brash, media savy driver that wasn't your typical Southerner.
 

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I absolutely believe that Gordon's impact on NASCAR is similar to Tiger's impact on golf. There's 4 people that absolutely lived up to their hype during my sports watching life; Jeff Gordon, LeBron James, Tiger Woods and Sidney Crosby. All 4 were basically childhood phenoms that turned out to be among the most transcending athletes in North American sports history. I knew Gordon from his Saturday Night Thunder days. ESPN did a helluva job getting his name out to the casual sports fan in the early 90's.

Both Gordon and Tiger came along at the perfect time; after the baseball strike. People tend forget how big of deal the baseball strike was in 1994. It took years for MLB to recover. Some would argue it never truly has in certain markets. It basically destroyed the Expos franchise in Montreal. Gordon won the Brickyard 400 only a few days before the strike. Corporate America immediately took notice to the 400k people that day at IMS and the ridiculous tv ratings. The sport took off to heights that were never imaginable even 6 months earlier at Daytona.

The other thing happened in 1994 was the World Cup in the United States. Despite attracting huge crowds it would take another 10-15 years for that sport to gain legitimate traction in this country via the MLS. To this day, despite the major downturn, there's still more of an appetite for auto racing than there is soccer.
Besides Tiger and Jeff both capturing the casual viewer, they also had undeniably the highest career peak performance in their respective sports.
 

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Earnhardt really didn't take on his persona until the black number 3 took the track in '88. He had the dust up at Richmond with Waltrip before that but it was the car that truly gave him his identity. I think Bill Elliott and to some extent DW were just as important as Earnhart in terms of raising the sport popularity in the 1980's. Elliott really brought another element to the sport with his Winston Million/SI Cover and speed records. DW was the outspoken brash, media savy driver that wasn't your typical Southerner.
Good point on that one too, the birth of the Intimidator required the black 3 car, and DW/Elliott/Rusty played a part in the rise of popularity as well.
 

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Good point on that one too, the birth of the Intimidator required the black 3 car, and DW/Elliott/Rusty played a part in the rise of popularity as well.
Elliott's impact was huge back then. He the face of Ford's "Have you driven a Ford lately?" ad campaign in the 1980's. As a result, people who did not follow NASCAR knew of Bill Elliott. Elliott also had a super cool nickname (clearly a help) "Awesome Bill from Dawsonville". This came about before Earnhardt was anointed the "Intimidator" iirc.

Elliott ultimately dominated the "Most Popular Driver" award.
 

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1) The start time was moved up hours to avoid weather.....Again, many scoffed at this in regard to NASCAR. It can be done, obviously,
If nobody else has said it yet,, as far as US televised sports goes, The Masters is in the same league with the Super Bowl. Augusta National says 'Jump.' and CBS doesn't even ask 'How high?' It just starts jumping until it's told to stop, and happily writes a check for the privilege. Has anyone mentioned the limited number of commercials? That's the club again, dictating how the coverage will be handled.

For those unaware, the club also has a list of Do's and Don't's for the patrons (not 'fans' or 'spectators'). That's why 'Get in the Hole!' Guy wasn't around much yesterday. Break the rules and they'll toss you out and put your name on the permanent Naughty list; it's easier to get off Santa's.

Augusta National has a product with a incredibly limited supply and insanely overwhelming demand. Even at the height of its popularity, NASCAR never had that kind of clout. On the other hand, neither does much else.
 

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I asked while watching it but what would be the NASCAR equivalent of Tiger’s Win yesterday? Dale’s 98 Daytona Win after everyone had written him off a horrible 97 season? Jeff Gordon winning the 2014 Brickyard 20 years after winning the first one and in the middle of a late career championship title shot that stalled at Texas? Maybe it hasn’t happened yet? (Something Like Gordon coming out of retirement and winning the Daytona 500? Maybe Jr doing that or Smoke coming back to race in the Indy 500). Tiger’s win yesterday transcended so many barriers, it melted down every form of social media and was the top news story on many a broadcast, I think it’d be awesome if something like that happened to NASCAR.
Dale, Jeff, and Smoke never has the physical problems, not to mention the personal ones (some self-inflicted). The only thing I can think of that might have compared is if Tim Richmond had come back and taken a title.
 
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