The New Racing Team Alliance

Matthew2470 said:
How do you please a group of fans that are impossible to please?
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They did for a long time though.

When your business booms like it did in the 90s, why would you change the formula? That's the problem, Nascar didn't stick with that made them so successful.
 
Go Panthers said:
They did for a long time though.

When your business booms like it did in the 90s, why would you change the formula? That's the problem, Nascar didn't stick with that made them so successful.
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What made them succesful went away. The sport lost their number one attraction which was the Jeff G/Dale E rivalry. Standing still was not an option.

And there have always been unhappy fans. The internet and social media has given everyone a voice. Unfortunately, the complainers always make the most noise regardless of whether or not they are in the majority.
 
Matthew2470 said:
How do you please a group of fans that are impossible to please?
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Lower ticket costs. Make TV viewership better. The TV viewership now makes driving these cars look like my grandma could do it. Get racing back on local channels instead of on cable. Change the cars to put the racing back in the driver's hands. Add more short tracks & track variety. Theres quite a few things NASCAR can do to bring back lost fans & add new ones.

Matthew2470 said:
What made them succesful went away. The sport lost their number one attraction which was the Jeff G/Dale E rivalry. Standing still was not an option.
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And yes. This sport needs rivalries. Its been too vanilla as of late.
 
FenderBumper said:
Could start with making decisions based on what fans want to see, not what milks the most cash out of them.
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Fans wanted to see better looking cars, competive racing, Dale Jr winning races and more emphasis on winning. All of those things have happened and the sport is still shedding fans willing to pay to attend or watch on TV.

Going to a race is cheaper that it was a few years ago. Most places even offer half price or free tickets for kids. Still nothing.

Regardless of what the sofa jockey experts around here may think, NASCAR has some very smart people in their employ and have access to a mountain of research and data that we will never see. If there was a magic bullet to fix everything they'd do it in a heartbeat. I know that fans think that because they watch races on TV every week that they are entitled to dictate the rules and formats but that's just not reality.

But thinking is hard. Complaining is easy.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Lower ticket costs. Make TV viewership better. The TV viewership now makes driving these cars look like my grandma could do it. Get racing back on local channels instead of on cable. Change the cars to put the racing back in the driver's hands. Add more short tracks & track variety. Theres quite a few things NASCAR can do to bring back lost fans & add new ones.
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Sees so simple until you break down the details of what doing those things entails.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Jeff Hammond questions RTA's agenda

http://foxs.pt/1n7ob7w

If the link does not work, it may be because its mobile version - not a desktop version.
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Good piece, but I would correct Jeff on one thing....this is about the sport....not the fans. Let's be honest, fans are not part of the equation, and we never will be. Rich guys playing rich guy games, and hopefully, they don't **** it up, so we can sit behind a fence, call it our own, and love it. What makes me nervous is that these guys are dicking with that. The potential exists here that rich guys with their rich guy concerns become so self-absorbed that they quit playing in the name of money. The sport ceases to exist. They move on to yacht racing. We have nothing as cool as this. Racers get this. Wall Street dudes see all of this as an investment.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Fans wanted to see better looking cars, competive racing, Dale Jr winning races and more emphasis on winning. All of those things have happened and the sport is still shedding fans willing to pay to attend or watch on TV.

Going to a race is cheaper that it was a few years ago. Most places even offer half price or free tickets for kids. Still nothing.

Regardless of what the sofa jockey experts around here may think, NASCAR has some very smart people in their employ and have access to a mountain of research and data that we will never see. If there was a magic bullet to fix everything they'd do it in a heartbeat. I know that fans think that because they watch races on TV every week that they are entitled to dictate the rules and formats but that's just not reality.

But thinking is hard. Complaining is easy.
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Well said. Stop complaining about the few fans left and start thinking of why the others left. :p

Even a person with average business acumen knows it's easier to lose customers than it is to get them back. NASCAR has been screwing things up since 2004, yet some couch Rockefeller's think a fancier hood on the cars is the magic bullet that should have fixed everything. :rolleyes:

Damn fickle fans keep tripping up the Frances. Those poor people just can't win.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Jeff Hammond questions RTA's agenda

http://foxs.pt/1n7ob7w

If the link does not work, it may be because its mobile version - not a desktop version.
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Jeff Hammond the ass kisser. He hopes RTA is for the fans and not being selfish? Wtf? Why is he not saying the same thing about France et al?
I reckon he's just trying to keep his job....
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Without fans, this sport doesnt exist. The hell are you smoking.
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If the sport didn't exist, the rich dudes would still be out making money somewhere. The sport exists because of the sponsors. Why the hell do you think that they can play to tracks 3/4 full?
 
Revman said:
If the sport didn't exist, the rich dudes would still be out making money somewhere. The sport exists because of the sponsors. Why the hell do you think that they can play to tracks 3/4 full?
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Sponsors are here only as long as their predicted reach is met. No fans --> no advertisements seen --> no sponsors --> no money --> no sport. We are the backbone of NASCAR, not them. Fans pay for tickets, buy merch & effect the ratings. Take all of that away & NASCAR has nothing.
 
Matthew2470 said:
What made them succesful went away. The sport lost their number one attraction which was the Jeff G/Dale E rivalry. Standing still was not an option.

And there have always been unhappy fans. The internet and social media has given everyone a voice. Unfortunately, the complainers always make the most noise regardless of whether or not they are in the majority.
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I'm a life long Earnhardt fan, the man lived 2 miles from the house I grew up in. He brought something different to the track each and every week, denying the fact that him passing away didnt effect nascar would be wrong.

It did effect the sport both positively and negatively. Sounds horrible to say positively, but the safety innovations since his death have been massive for the sport.

I was still a massive fan of Nascar for 5 or 6 years after he was gone, his death is not why I stopped watching. I stopped watching because it became a circus. How the sport determines a championship is down right laughable. I can't get behind a sport like that, I just can't.

The Chase and whatever you want to call it now have just completely wrecked the history of the sport. You can't compare the championships that a driver has earned over the past 10 years, to the ones earned before that.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Sponsors are here only as long as their predicted reach is met. No fans --> no advertisements seen --> no sponsors --> no money --> no sport. We are the backbone of NASCAR, not them. Fans pay for tickets, buy merch & effect the ratings. Take all of that away & NASCAR has nothing.
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There are a multitude of sponsors who will tell you that the power of NASCAR is business to business. That would be rich guys stroking each other. We are incidental. RTA isn't about us, and God help us if it becomes about the sport. Kauffman designing cost effective cars with rules designed to maximize profits. Fun.
 
Revman said:
There are a multitude of sponsors who will tell you that the power of NASCAR is business to business. That would be rich guys stroking each other. We are incidental.
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No. Fans are not incidental.

These corporations are NOT going to put up millions of dollars to have their name on a car if the fans stop watching. The whole point of sponsorships are to advertise a product. Who are you advertising to if no one watches?

If I was a stockholder in a company that spent that type of money with no one watching, I'd be calling for the CEO's head.
 
Go Panthers said:
No. Fans are not incidental.

These corporations are NOT going to put up millions of dollars to have their name on a car if the fans stop watching. The whole point of sponsorships are to advertise a product. Who are you advertising to if no one watches?

If I was a stockholder in a company that spent that type of money with no one watching, I'd be calling for the CEO's head.
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Who has been invited to the RTA? The sport? No. The fans? No. The owners subsidized by their sponsors. That's who. Here's an example......Carl Edwards. Does Jack know where he is going? Yes. Sponsors? Yes. JGR? Yes. Do you? No. They know that we will take whatever we are given. We are incidental. What pisses people off the most about what NASCAR did with the Chase was that they did it without regard to what the fans thought. Incidental. How many freakin' times has the finger been pointed at us for not showing up? Seriously? Most of us are out here raising families and making a living while the rich dudes guilt us because we don't care enough about the sport to pony up. I did not say that the fans were irrelevant, just incidental. The difference being that of course there has to be viewers, but we are incidental in the context that we are taken for granted, and a sponsor's commitment to the sport is going to be relative to the numbers of us crazy enough to stick around. Consider me among the crazy.
 
Go Panthers said:
They did for a long time though.

When your business booms like it did in the 90s, why would you change the formula? That's the problem, Nascar didn't stick with that made them so successful.
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You had yourself a baseball strike during that time. World Series cancelled. That was big.
 
Revman said:
Who has been invited to the RTA? The sport? No. The fans? No. The owners subsidized by their sponsors. That's who. Here's an example......Carl Edwards. Does Jack know where he is going? Yes. Sponsors? Yes. JGR? Yes. Do you? No. They know that we will take whatever we are given. We are incidental. What pisses people off the most about what NASCAR did with the Chase was that they did it without regard to what the fans thought. Incidental. How many freakin' times has the finger been pointed at us for not showing up? Seriously? Most of us are out here raising families and making a living while the rich dudes guilt us because we don't care enough about the sport to pony up. I did not say that the fans were irrelevant, just incidental. The difference being that of course there has to be viewers, but we are incidental in the context that we are taken for granted, and a sponsor's commitment to the sport is going to be relative to the numbers of us crazy enough to stick around. Consider me among the crazy.
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Don't you think the sponsors want things changed to get more fans at the tracks and watching on TV? The more people that watch, the more exposure they get.

There's no question sponsors want what's best for the fan, the fans at the end of the day are exactly why the sponsor are there.
 
Revman said:
You had yourself a baseball strike during that time. World Series cancelled. That was big.
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The baseball strike was about money between players and owners. They didn't have a fan problem at the time.

If MLB changed the rules so much that it drove fans away, then we could compare them. Comparing the MLB strike to the RTA isn't apples to apples.

If there is a strike in Nascar and the outcome does nothing to improve the fan experiance, then we can talk about how bad the RTA is.

I personally think they formed because they don't like the direction nascar is going.....
 
I don't necessarily see a split unless France is unwilling to negotiate being the sole proprietor so to speak. Changing it to a League wide ownership with an independent governing body with all "Team" owner's making up elected comity's for rules and general business.
 
Go Panthers said:
Don't you think the sponsors want things changed to get more fans at the tracks and watching on TV? The more people that watch, the more exposure they get.

There's no question sponsors want what's best for the fan, the fans at the end of the day are exactly why the sponsor are there.
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The sponsors are going to participate relative to the viewing audience. Tons of people? Full season sponsorships. Few people? Partial sponsorships and they get their exposure elsewhere. They don't really care IMO. They will get their exposure.
 
Go Panthers said:
The baseball strike was about money between players and owners. They didn't have a fan problem at the time.

If MLB changed the rules so much that it drove fans away, then we could compare them. Comparing the MLB strike to the RTA isn't apples to apples.

If there is a strike in Nascar and the outcome does nothing to improve the fan experiance, then we can talk about how bad the RTA is.

I personally think they formed because they don't like the direction nascar is going.....
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My point about the baseball strike was that it coincided with NASCAR's heyday. I believe people became disillusioned with stick and ball, and were looking for something else. Then, guys started hitting home runs, and baseball came back.
 
Revman said:
The sponsors are going to participate relative to the viewing audience. Tons of people? Full season sponsorships. Few people? Partial sponsorships and they get their exposure elsewhere. They don't really care IMO. They will get their exposure.
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They aren't going to pay what race teams need to compete if the exposure isnt there.

That's business 101.

It's like paying top dollar for a billboard for the middle of no where, any Advertising Executive that does that is going to get canned.
 
Wingnutcnc said:
I don't necessarily see a split unless France is unwilling to negotiate being the sole proprietor so to speak. Changing it to a League wide ownership with an independent governing body with all "Team" owner's making up elected comity's for rules and general business.
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So, by negotiation we are talking about Brian giving the owners a bigger slice? Right. That might be a problem.
 
Go Panthers said:
They aren't going to pay what race teams need to compete if the exposure isnt there.

That's business 101.

It's like paying top dollar for a billboard for the middle of no where, any Advertising Executive that does that is going to get canned.
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That's why there are very few full season sponsorships. They will allocate dollars for the numbers they think they can achieve in NASCAR until it is no longer worth their time at all---see Home Depot. Maybe that's business 102 or something.
 
Revman said:
My point about the baseball strike was that it coincided with NASCAR's heyday. I believe people became disillusioned with stick and ball, and were looking for something else. Then, guys started hitting home runs, and baseball came back.
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Baseball has never returned to the popularity before the strike. It's been 20 years and people are still pissed off about it. If what you're saying is true about people becoming disillusioned with stick and ball sports, then why is the NFL more popular than ever?

I can only tell you why Nascar lost me. I was a fan from as long as I could remember, so probably mid 80s all the way though the mid 2000s. I attended races at NW, Rockingham, and Charlotte, nascar left 2 of those tracks to rot. Then they changed the points system and the cars. They've over dramatized every single pass on the track.

It's too much for me, I can't watch it. I know for a fact I'm not the only one. One of my buddies that went to all those races with me for 10 years has stopped watching for the same exact reasons. I've heard numerous others same the same thing.

The unnecessary changes have to stop, proof is in the pudding. Attendance and TV ratings are ALL down.
 
Revman said:
That's why there are very few full season sponsorships. They will allocate dollars for the numbers they think they can achieve in NASCAR until it is no longer worth their time at all---see Home Depot. Maybe that's business 102 or something.
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Home Depot is leaving Nascar all together at the end of the season. How many more of those are we going to see?

Companies like that are not easy to find.
 
Go Panthers said:
Baseball has never returned to the popularity before the strike. It's been 20 years and people are still pissed off about it. If what you're saying is true about people becoming disillusioned with stick and ball sports, then why is the NFL more popular than ever?

I can only tell you why Nascar lost me. I was a fan from as long as I could remember, so probably mid 80s all the way though the mid 2000s. I attended races at NW, Rockingham, and Charlotte, nascar left 2 of those tracks to rot. Then they changed the points system and the cars. They've over dramatized every single pass on the track.

It's too much for me, I can't watch it. I know for a fact I'm not the only one. One of my buddies that went to all those races with me for 10 years has stopped watching for the same exact reasons. I've heard numerous others same the same thing.

The unnecessary changes have to stop, proof is in the pudding. Attendance and TV ratings are ALL down.
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That's why I think NASCAR has to change their expectations. IMO the height of popularity coincided with the baseball issues. That's when NASCAR was on top of the world. As fans flowed back, NASCAR numbers declined. They are probably as good as they are ever going to get right now IMO. All of these declining numbers are based on the heyday. It is completely unreasonable to expect that they would reach those levels again. We should never shoot for the stick and ball guys. We will never get them. The NFL is untouchable.

As far as you drifting away from the sport. Really sorry about that, but I do understand. We all bring something different to the table. As long as they fire those bad boys up, and get after it, I don't give a **** how we decide a Champion, where we race, or how we race. As long as we race.
 
Go Panthers said:
Home Depot is leaving Nascar all together at the end of the season. How many more of those are we going to see?

Companies like that are not easy to find.
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Home Depot chose a different direction because of their management. Their advertising dollars are going elsewhere because the new management does not have the fondness for NASCAR that the previous one did. I think we lost them because that was their preference more than the complete loss of value for their dollar.
 
Revman said:
That's why I think NASCAR has to change their expectations. IMO the height of popularity coincided with the baseball issues. That's when NASCAR was on top of the world. As fans flowed back, NASCAR numbers declined. They are probably as good as they are ever going to get right now IMO. All of these declining numbers are based on the heyday. It is completely unreasonable to expect that they would reach those levels again. We should never shoot for the stick and ball guys. We will never get them. The NFL is untouchable.

As far as you drifting away from the sport. Really sorry about that, but I do understand. We all bring something different to the table. As long as they fire those bad boys up, and get after it, I don't give a **** how we decide a Champion, where we race, or how we race. As long as we race.
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Personally, I don't think the popularity growth and Nascar had anything to do with the baseball strike, that's just my opinion though.

If the NFL is king, why does nascar compete with them for 3 months? I just don't understand that.
 
Revman said:
Home Depot chose a different direction because of their management. Their advertising dollars are going elsewhere because the new management does not have the fondness for NASCAR that the previous one did. I think we lost them because that was their preference more than the complete loss of value for their dollar.
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See, I think that's denial. If attendance and TV numbers weren't down, then I'd agree with you.

I think Home Depot saw those numbers and chose not to put their money on Nascar.
 
Go Panthers said:
Personally, I don't think the popularity growth and Nascar had anything to do with the baseball strike, that's just my opinion though.

If the NFL is king, why does nascar compete with them for 3 months? I just don't understand that.
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I sure don't think the issues with baseball hurt. NASCAR competes with the NFL because they think they can, and the allure of all of that money if they could.....
 
Go Panthers said:
See, I think that's denial. If attendance and TV numbers weren't down, then I'd agree with you.

I think Home Depot saw those numbers and chose not to put their money on Nascar.
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Home Depot had already scaled their commitment way down. They weren't losing money on that deal IMO. They lost interest. Certainly, their interest would be sky high with those mid 90's numbers, but those are unreasonable IMO.
 
Matthew2470 said:
What made them succesful went away. The sport lost their number one attraction which was the Jeff G/Dale E rivalry. Standing still was not an option.

And there have always been unhappy fans. The internet and social media has given everyone a voice. Unfortunately, the complainers always make the most noise regardless of whether or not they are in the majority.
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Didn't nascar's peak attendance came a couple of years after Sr passed away? I believe it was 2003 or 2004. But there may be a connection. After Sr was gone, nascar started trying to 'clean up' the sport and make drivers act more like F1 drivers. They also saw expansion as more seats, not more tracks in different markets. So we got 1.5's to fit more seats, and that changed the racing. The lazy 'one template fits all' CoT was also a huge mistake. Brand recognition was gone, and that was a huge draw to fans.

nascar has had their head up their asses for too long. Instead of STAYING semi-stock, they stuck with engine technology from the 80's, and 50% of American car buyers were cut out of the sport. Only a damn fool thinks buyers of foreign, overhead cam vehicles will be excited to see unrecognizable pushrod Chevy's and Ford's race each other.
 
FenderBumper said:
Didn't nascar's peak attendance came a couple of years after Sr passed away? I believe it was 2003 or 2004. But there may be a connection. After Sr was gone, nascar started trying to 'clean up' the sport and make drivers act more like F1 drivers. They also saw expansion as more seats, not more tracks in different markets. So we got 1.5's to fit more seats, and that changed the racing. The lazy 'one template fits all' CoT was also a huge mistake. Brand recognition was gone, and that was a huge draw to fans.

nascar has had their head up their asses for too long. Instead of STAYING semi-stock, they stuck with engine technology from the 80's, and 50% of American car buyers were cut out of the sport. Only a damn fool thinks buyers of foreign, overhead cam vehicles will be excited to see unrecognizable pushrod Chevy's and Ford's race each other.
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True on NASCAR's peak, but remember baseball was really in the midst of dealing with the damage done with the strike at that time.
I do believe that Sr. passing was and has been an issue, and the changes that ensued.
The brand identity has been screwed by NASCAR forever IMO. At some point, a transition needed to occur from NASCAR being what you could have in your driveway to NASCAR being an expression of what you have in your driveway similar to the way open wheelers view their brands. It has never happened. In fact, I might argue that the aesthetics of the Gen 6 promise that driveway to track connection without even the possibility of delivering. Brand identity needed to **** to brand pride.
 
Revman said:
Home Depot had already scaled their commitment way down. They weren't losing money on that deal IMO. They lost interest. Certainly, their interest would be sky high with those mid 90's numbers, but those are unreasonable IMO.
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By the way, attendance and TV ratings arent just down this year, its been over the last 4 or 5 years, that's probably why Home Depot scaled back, and then have decided to bail on the sport.
 
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