The news we were all dreading...

Team Penske said:
I believe the first time Mark entered Nascar it was in his own car. I think I remember a dark blue with the number 2 on it. When he couldn't get sponsorship he had to fold, I don't call that being washed out.
BTW, the story I heard was Dale E. told Jack he was crazy if he didn't go get that guy. Dale raced him and knew MM was a good driver.
You won't see his breed ever again in Nascar. Kyle B. with all his help couldn't even make an Xfinity team successful with Kurt driving YET MM did it for years before he sold his team to Jack. Koodos to Harvick as well.
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Oddly enough and IMO, DEJr. is more like Martin in his racing style than he is DESr. Damn near as clean a driver as you can be and likely cost them both more than a few wins.

I'm not saying those 2 are perfect, as no one is, but they would've been justified in being more aggressive and less apologetic. I'd also put Kahne in that category.
 
Team Penske said:
You won't see his breed ever again in Nascar. Kyle B. with all his help couldn't even make an Xfinity team successful with Kurt driving YET MM did it for years before he sold his team to Jack. Koodos to Harvick as well.
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I stopped questioning your posts for the obvious reason.
 
Why should we dread when a drivers contract expires? Happens all the time in sports, sometimes another team picks them up, sometime they don't. He77 I worked as a contract employee a couple of times, the end comes and you move on.
If true Bowman and Byron will only make 500,000 driving for HMS next year remember they're now and have limited experience.
FWIW I could probably find half a dozen drivers at the local track who would have no difficulty driving for HMS for only 500k a year. Bet you can do too.
 
LOL @ Stewart. That's the "do as I say, not as I do" Tony of old.

Who in their right mind would ever buy that steamin' pile.
 
Acs said:
AP Column: As sponsorship dollars dwindle, NASCAR's stars fade

No room in the stable for paying talented drivers when you get more speed out of paying for a left-rear aero engineer. Alex Bowman and William Byron are racing HMS equipment for less than $500,000 a season, or less than an NFL rookie minimum salary.

Also Tony Stewart makes it official he's full of crap.
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If Tony was a wooden doll his nose would be 10 feet long.

IDK what the salary structure is for Nascar drivers and team employees but if I was in charge everything would be heavily incentive laden and doing the minimum would qualify you for eking out a meager existence. However if the team did well and hit certain targets everyone would be rewarded and I have found this system to work well as it gets rid of the weak and causes everyone to work together.
 
Bobw said:
Why should we dread when a drivers contract expires? Happens all the time in sports, sometimes another team picks them up, sometime they don't. He77 I worked as a contract employee a couple of times, the end comes and you move on.
If true Bowman and Byron will only make 500,000 driving for HMS next year remember they're now and have limited experience.
FWIW I could probably find half a dozen drivers at the local track who would have no difficulty driving for HMS for only 500k a year. Bet you can do too.
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This right here.
 
AuzGrams said:
Shouldn't have priced himself out of a ride. I like Matt and it's unfortunate that NASCAR isn't what it once was, but guys like Erik Jones come much cheaper.
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Post #88 of mine explained how this is a misconception. I'll post it again.

It's been reported that there were no negotiations. He was just told that he was no longer welcome at JGR because they wanted Jones in the car. Look it up. Never mind here are some links.

"The team, however, couldn’t acquiesce with Kenseth’s wishes as it was contractually obligated to bring Jones back in-house or risk losing him to a rival. And with Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin and Daniel Suarez under contract, and with Jones regarded as a phenom, the decision of who would be the odd man out was obvious".

https://www.sbnation.com/nascar/201...h-out-erik-jones-joe-gibbs-racing-2018-season

“I think on the overall picture though for us, we just got put in this situation with a lot of things happening to our race team over a period of about a year and half where we wound up at this spot. We didn’t want to be here, but we wound up here and then we had to make a decision.
Among the other factors Gibbs mentioned was Carl Edwards’ abrupt retirement from the sport in the offseason. That decision triggered the progression of Daniel Suarez to JGR’s No. 19 Toyota for his Sunoco Rookie of the Year campaign this season".

https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2017/07/16/joe-gibbs-reacts-matt-kenseth-erik-jones-20-car/

"Kenseth’s fate had been in limbo — though it seemed obvious Jones was being groomed for the ride — and Gibbs made the transaction complete, leaving the 45-year-old driver without an ‘18 car".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ver-end-of-the-ride-with-joe-gibbs/103692166/
 
Johali said:
Post #88 of mine explained how this is a misconception. I'll post it again.

It's been reported that there were no negotiations. He was just told that he was no longer welcome at JGR because they wanted Jones in the car. Look it up. Never mind here are some links.

"The team, however, couldn’t acquiesce with Kenseth’s wishes as it was contractually obligated to bring Jones back in-house or risk losing him to a rival. And with Kyle Busch, Denny Hamlin and Daniel Suarez under contract, and with Jones regarded as a phenom, the decision of who would be the odd man out was obvious".

https://www.sbnation.com/nascar/201...h-out-erik-jones-joe-gibbs-racing-2018-season

“I think on the overall picture though for us, we just got put in this situation with a lot of things happening to our race team over a period of about a year and half where we wound up at this spot. We didn’t want to be here, but we wound up here and then we had to make a decision.
Among the other factors Gibbs mentioned was Carl Edwards’ abrupt retirement from the sport in the offseason. That decision triggered the progression of Daniel Suarez to JGR’s No. 19 Toyota for his Sunoco Rookie of the Year campaign this season".

https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2017/07/16/joe-gibbs-reacts-matt-kenseth-erik-jones-20-car/

"Kenseth’s fate had been in limbo — though it seemed obvious Jones was being groomed for the ride — and Gibbs made the transaction complete, leaving the 45-year-old driver without an ‘18 car".

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...ver-end-of-the-ride-with-joe-gibbs/103692166/
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I think some of us thought Jones was going to stay at Furniture Row another year or longer going by what Gibbs said about Kenseth at the first of the year. Didn't hear one reporter saying different until Kenseth was cut out of the ride and then oh yeah we knew all along that Jones was going to Gibbs asap. Pretty strange that after Edwards bailed they had to stuff Suarez in a seat. Having two green drivers at the cup level wasn't a common thing to do. Big gamble.
 
None of us know if Kenseth had conversations with other teams about driving for them next year or if it even got to the point where salary was discussed. It seems to me that SHR would not have been an option as they can't get enough outside sponsors for the cars they have. Team Penske seems set with 3 teams and the Wood Bros are happy to have a ride buyer ensuring another year on the circuit. HMS wanted to get younger and cheaper faster so they were not an option, RFR can only get sponsors for 2 teams and IDK what is going on with the 27 car of RCR but I am sure Richard would hire a relative before Matt. JGR could not accommodate Matt in a 5th car and Barney couldn't get sponsorship for the 78.

None of us know what Kenseth's salary expectations are but in all likelihood it is a moot point as there isn't a suitable landing spot available to him at any price.
 
Im so surprised at how people thought kenseth was going to stay at gibbs at the risk of losing Jones to probably Hendrick. Really people? Its not only a clear business decison but why feed your competition your best young gun. Wow.
 
Fordracing7 said:
Im so surprised at how people thought kenseth was going to stay at gibbs at the risk of losing Jones to probably Hendrick. Really people? Its not only a clear business decison but why feed your competition your best young gun. Wow.
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There is a lot of different angles to this story as some people feel that Matt deserves to remain employed at JGR for presumably a salary close to what he is used to. Other people understand that JGR was no longer contractually obligated to Matt and Toyota wanted Jones at the defacto factory team and what TRD wants JGR must do.

IMO the most bizarre angle to this story has been the people that have tried to frame Joe Gibbs as a villain because he made positive comments about Matt and then acquiesced to Toyota by filling the 20 seat with Jones. It is OK to be ignorant of how business works but it is not OK to bash someone because of that ignorance.
 
Fordracing7 said:
Im so surprised at how people thought kenseth was going to stay at gibbs at the risk of losing Jones to probably Hendrick. Really people? Its not only a clear business decison but why feed your competition your best young gun. Wow.
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at the time Hendrick had already snatched up Byron and had him racing in Xfinity and Bowman was already on the payroll. :confused:
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
None of us know if Kenseth had conversations with other teams about driving for them next year or if it even got to the point where salary was discussed. It seems to me that SHR would not have been an option as they can't get enough outside sponsors for the cars they have. Team Penske seems set with 3 teams and the Wood Bros are happy to have a ride buyer ensuring another year on the circuit. HMS wanted to get younger and cheaper faster so they were not an option, RFR can only get sponsors for 2 teams and IDK what is going on with the 27 car of RCR but I am sure Richard would hire a relative before Matt. JGR could not accommodate Matt in a 5th car and Barney couldn't get sponsorship for the 78.

None of us know what Kenseth's salary expectations are but in all likelihood it is a moot point as there isn't a suitable landing spot available to him at any price.
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Matt was considered for at least two rides that I know of for a fact, and a third that I heard of from a source (so I consider it a rumor). There was enough investigation done for both that I know of to conclude they could not afford him. I don't blame Matt for wanting a full Cup schedule to be worth his time. He's got enough money & he's not getting any younger.
 
StandOnIt said:
I think some of us thought Jones was going to stay at Furniture Row another year or longer going by what Gibbs said about Kenseth at the first of the year. Didn't hear one reporter saying different until Kenseth was cut out of the ride and then oh yeah we knew all along that Jones was going to Gibbs asap. Pretty strange that after Edwards bailed they had to stuff Suarez in a seat. Having two green drivers at the cup level wasn't a common thing to do. Big gamble.
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Plan was for EJ to replace Kenseth likely this season (as is happening), and Suarez to take over the 77 after spending this past season in Xfinity again. He'd be in the 77 until Bell was ready to take it over in 2019 or 2020 (geez...wasn't it just the year 2000??), moving Suarez over to knock out either Denny or Carl. Rinse, repeat. Carl retiring basically put that plan through the shredder and left a really big developmental gap (reason for the 77) because the next guy up isn't even close to ready (unlike EJ and Suarez, who were at least "close" to ready).
 
Allenbaba said:
Matt was considered for at least two rides that I know of for a fact, and a third that I heard of from a source (so I consider it a rumor). There was enough investigation done for both that I know of to conclude they could not afford him. I don't blame Matt for wanting a full Cup schedule to be worth his time. He's got enough money & he's not getting any younger.
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I appreciate the info as it is always good to know the truth of the matter. I seem to remember you saying that Matt would likely have to take an extremely large cut in pay to continue driving into 2018 and beyond and I don't blame him for having salary requirements and retiring instead of taking pennies on the dollar.
 
StandOnIt said:
So Preacher saying at the first of the season what he said was just a ruse..got it.
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Maybe, maybe not. (First of all...a lot of things you hear in press conferences & reporter blurbs are a ruse, but I digress). I think at the time Coach made his statment, EJ in the 77 and status quo at Gibbs for another season (next season) was definitely a possibility. Dollar General leaving made it impossible for them to do anything other than what's happening now. They simply couldn't afford another season with Matt.

EDIT TO ADD: they really and truly thought as recent as this past Spring they would replace DG $$. They didn't.
 
Allenbaba said:
Maybe, maybe not. (First of all...a lot of things you hear in press conferences & reporter blurbs are a ruse, but I digress). I think at the time Coach made his statment, EJ in the 77 and status quo at Gibbs for another season (next season) was definitely a possibility. Dollar General leaving made it impossible for them to do anything other than what's happening now. They simply couldn't afford another season with Matt.

EDIT TO ADD: they really and truly thought as recent as this past Spring they would replace DG $$. They didn't.
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Yeah, I can see no benefit to Joe Gibbs personally or JGR as an entity to willfully lie to Matt about employing him all the while knowing that there was no chance of it happening.
 
Allenbaba said:
Maybe, maybe not. (First of all...a lot of things you hear in press conferences & reporter blurbs are a ruse, but I digress). I think at the time Coach made his statment, EJ in the 77 and status quo at Gibbs for another season (next season) was definitely a possibility. Dollar General leaving made it impossible for them to do anything other than what's happening now. They simply couldn't afford another season with Matt.

EDIT TO ADD: they really and truly thought as recent as this past Spring they would replace DG $$. They didn't.
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Dollar General left last year, who knows, they might have had a sponsor deal at the time this year when Gibbs was expressing his love of Matt staying there and it fell thru, whatever it was, it came out as a cut throat move. The preacher needs to work on his PR skills. I suspect Matt will be dropping some bombs on MRN radio tonight.
 
Team Penske said:
I believe the first time Mark entered Nascar it was in his own car. I think I remember a dark blue with the number 2 on it. When he couldn't get sponsorship he had to fold, I don't call that being washed out.
BTW, the story I heard was Dale E. told Jack he was crazy if he didn't go get that guy. Dale raced him and knew MM was a good driver.
You won't see his breed ever again in Nascar. Kyle B. with all his help couldn't even make an Xfinity team successful with Kurt driving YET MM did it for years before he sold his team to Jack. Koodos to Harvick as well.
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Yeah he was sponsored by Apache Stoves I believe? Sponsor didn't come though with money so team folded, Mark went back to ASA and became a raging alcoholic hanging around Dick Trickle too much.

Mark didn't credit anyone for hooking him up with Jack and Robin other than Steve Hmiel who was team manager then Mark's crew chief when Robin left.
 
KyBuownsyourbrain said:
Oddly enough and IMO, DEJr. is more like Martin in his racing style than he is DESr. Damn near as clean a driver as you can be and likely cost them both more than a few wins.

I'm not saying those 2 are perfect, as no one is, but they would've been justified in being more aggressive and less apologetic. I'd also put Kahne in that category.
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I agree wholeheartedly. I admired Mark because of his style, now following Brad, I wish Mark was more like Brad in his driving.

And yes, Jr. is as classy on the track as Mark was.
 
I like Tony's picks better and I think Almirola if he ends up there will make the playoffs.I could be wrong, but he got about all a person could get out of the 43 car. I compare him to Almindinger. About the same equipment but Almindinger mashes up a lot of cars over driving. Almirola drives a smart race, doesn't tear up stuff and hardly makes any mistakes. I think if he gets a good car under him he will be able to do something with it.
 
Allenbaba said:
Plan was for EJ to replace Kenseth likely this season (as is happening), and Suarez to take over the 77 after spending this past season in Xfinity again. He'd be in the 77 until Bell was ready to take it over in 2019 or 2020 (geez...wasn't it just the year 2000??), moving Suarez over to knock out either Denny or Carl. Rinse, repeat. Carl retiring basically put that plan through the shredder and left a really big developmental gap (reason for the 77) because the next guy up isn't even close to ready (unlike EJ and Suarez, who were at least "close" to ready).
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I believe Kenseth was fully aware of this long-term plan from the beginning. In January 2016 (Nascar media blitz), Kenseth began to seize every public opportunity to proclaim that he had no thoughts of retiring, that he was driving better than he ever had, that he was in great physical condition, etc, etc. It seemed oddly out-of-character for Matt, and made me believe he was worried about having a ride after 2017, when his existing contract expired. I posted here about it. And when Jones-to-the-77 was announced, that was known to be a one-year deal, confirmed by Barney Visser. I do not believe Matt has had any surprises about the Gibbs long term plan.

I also do not believe that Toyota is dictating decisions on drivers to Gibbs or Visser. David Wilson recently said very emphatically that they do not. He said they consult about drivers, but do not control it, and if they did have control, several different decisions would have been made. So people posting that Toyota is dictating this deal... what information supports those posts?
 
Originally from 2016, but like a fine wine, has gotten even better over time...

 
LewTheShoe said:
I believe Kenseth was fully aware of this long-term plan from the beginning. In January 2016 (Nascar media blitz), Kenseth began to seize every public opportunity to proclaim that he had no thoughts of retiring, that he was driving better than he ever had, that he was in great physical condition, etc, etc. It seemed oddly out-of-character for Matt, and made me believe he was worried about having a ride after 2017, when his existing contract expired. I posted here about it. And when Jones-to-the-77 was announced, that was known to be a one-year deal, confirmed by Barney Visser. I do not believe Matt has had any surprises about the Gibbs long term plan.

I also do not believe that Toyota is dictating decisions on drivers to Gibbs or Visser. David Wilson recently said very emphatically that they do not. He said they consult about drivers, but do not control it, and if they did have control, several different decisions would have been made. So people posting that Toyota is dictating this deal... what information supports those posts?
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So you think Barney "found" Jones stuffed him in a car, split his sponsorship without Toyota coming in with their bag full of money. And now suddenly he doesn't have sponsorship for another car, but he has the same sponsors and now even more sponsorship for the 78 car next year? your not going to be seeing the flat black Furniture Row scheme much if at all next year. Toyota giveth and Toyota takes away.
 
StandOnIt said:
So you think Barney "found" Jones stuffed him in a car, split his sponsorship without Toyota coming in with their bag full of money. And now suddenly he doesn't have sponsorship for another car, but he has the same sponsors and now even more sponsorship for the 78 car next year? your not going to be seeing the flat black Furniture Row scheme much if at all next year. Toyota giveth and Toyota takes away.
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I do find that funny that the team has the most support it has ever had, full toyota support, 38 races covered and now cant support a second "furniture row/denver mattress" car haha
 
Fordracing7 said:
I do find that funny that the team has the most support it has ever had, full toyota support, 38 races covered and now cant support a second "furniture row/denver mattress" car haha
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IMO he can't put any driver he wants in there like the owners for the other brands do. He has to wait until Toyota comes up with one.
 
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