The on-track product shall not be criticized

[SpeedPagan]

Almost all of my peers who I know are interested in racing are engineering majors and they're more interested in open wheel racing and sports car racing than something like NASCAR that isn't very appealing technologically.

Well that's because NASCAR is basically spec racing with no room in the rules for technological improvement.

 

[Marcingak]

I think the problem with NASCAR is that Ford, Chevy, and Toyota make very boring cars which don't really appeal to the younger crowd.

 

[ChexOrWrex]

I think the problem with NASCAR is that Ford, Chevy, and Toyota make very boring cars which don't really appeal to the younger crowd.

If the Camaro & Mustang moved to Cup I bet more people would watch. It would have to actually have the frame shape of the stock models, not the bs we have in the xfinity series now.

NASCAR also needs more manufacturers. I bet dodge leaving turned people off

 

[FLRacingFan]

Well that's because NASCAR is basically spec racing with no room in the rules for technological improvement.

Essentially. They all design and develop cars and go out to Formula SAE competitions to compete in a bunch of different events and categories. There aren't very many regulations.

That's a pretty big demographic that's being pushed aside.

 

[SpeedPagan]

Essentially. They all design and develop cars and go out to Formula SAE competitions to compete in a bunch of different events and categories. There aren't very many regulations.

That's a pretty big demographic that's being pushed aside.

I get that NASCAR wants close competition, hence the spec racing, but honestly, I think a better way to go would be for NASCAR to start promoting Muscle Car racing. Start weeding out the family sedans, loosen up the rules some and allow muscle cars to compete.

 

[Nathan_259]

I get that NASCAR wants close competition, hence the spec racing, but honestly, I think a better way to go would be for NASCAR to start promoting Muscle Car racing. Start weeding out the family sedans, loosen up the rules some and allow muscle cars to compete.

You don't mean street muscle cars, right?

 

[SpeedPagan]

You don't mean street muscle cars, right?

Well, my ideal NASCAR Sprint Cup series would have the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Dodge Challenger, and whatever Toyota can cook up and just let those cars race.

 

[Bobw]

They could race Hertz, Budget and U-Haul moving trucks and if they implement "parity' the racing would suk just as much.
There was a time if you got beat and you went and did your homework and came back. Got beat again you worked harder.
Then the "parity" and "level playing field" mentality came about. If you find a way to make more hp or handle better why should nascar get involved? It was innovation that fueled this sport in the beginning and now nascar is choking the life out of it now.

 

[Revman]

If the Camaro & Mustang moved to Cup I bet more people would watch. It would have to actually have the frame shape of the stock models, not the bs we have in the xfinity series now.

NASCAR also needs more manufacturers. I bet dodge leaving turned people off

Yeah, but they don't need manufacturers who stop by, and then leave. Long term commitment, and infuse some cash into the sport. See Toyota for more details.

 

[Revman]

Well that's because NASCAR is basically spec racing with no room in the rules for technological improvement.

I don't agree. I am not an engineer, but I have a ton of friends who are. Most of them cannot stand the human element--the driver--****** things up. They are design oriented, and drivers introduce an unpredictable element--a non-engineering element. The type of engineer that embraces NASCAR is the guy or gal who gets a rush out of the competitive and thus dynamic environment which tolerates the human element. They have to like people, and science dudes and dudets tend not to. It's a paradox, and it takes a special kind of person to succeed here.

In terms of technological improvement.......The new engine package opens the box as did the 0 Ride Height and subsequent revisions. I don't buy that NASCAR is technologically static. Big leaps? No. Details? Yes.

 

[SpeedPagan]

I don't agree. I am not an engineer, but I have a ton of friends who are. Most of them cannot stand the human element--the driver--******* things up. They are design oriented, and drivers introduce an unpredictable element--a non-engineering element. The type of engineer that embraces NASCAR is the guy or gal who gets a rush out of the competitive and thus dynamic environment which tolerates the human element. They have to like people, and science dudes and dudets tend not to. It's a paradox, and it takes a special kind of person to succeed here.

In terms of technological improvement.......The new engine package opens the box as did the 0 Ride Height and subsequent revisions. I don't buy that NASCAR is technologically static. Big leaps? No. Details? Yes.

Well it used to be that "Race on Sunday, Buy on Monday" was a thing in NASCAR, and actually thanks to NASCAR in the early days, car manufacturer did improve their cars so that it could be more competitive in the stock car world. Nowadays though, there's no such correlations between NASCAR and the car manufacturers.

 

[Wingnutcnc]

These cookie cutter cars suck and have since they were introduced. Dirty up the air, get rid of the cheese slicer on the front and have the stock bodies on the chassis.

 

[ChexOrWrex]

These cookie cutter cars suck and have since they were introduced. Dirty up the air, get rid of the cheese slicer on the front and have the stock bodies on the chassis.

Ding ding ding

 

[ted@economy]

There was a time if you got beat and you went and did your homework and came back. Got beat again you worked harder.
Then the "parity" and "level playing field" mentality came about. If you find a way to make more hp or handle better why should nascar get involved? It was innovation that fueled this sport in the beginning and now nascar is choking the life out of it now.

Yeah , there was a time when you did your homework and got better , then there was a time when you took your troubles to the media every time the other manufacturer got a competetive advantage . Seemed like every week there was one brand or another griping about Nascar giving the competition an unfair advantage . Nascar was forced to respect the teams wishes and make parity a priority.

 

[Bobw]

Yeah , there was a time when you did your homework and got better , then there was a time when Jack Roush took his troubles to the media every time the other manufacturer got a competetive advantage . Seemed like every week Jack was there griping about Nascar giving the competition an unfair advantage ..

 

[ted@economy]

Truthfully , I heard all the teams doing it , and it wasn't pretty . I think they backed Nascar into a corner. The box needed to be tightened up. Another example of teams effecting change through the media .I don't hear them gripeing anymore .

 

[Bobw]

I'm just remembering when Ford dropped the bird. Jack presented the Taurus as what Nascar had to give them. Ever see a 2 dr Taurus?

 

[BOWTIE GUY]

Yeah , there was a time when you did your homework and got better , then there was a time when you took your troubles to the media every time the other manufacturer got a competetive advantage . Seemed like every week there was one brand or another griping about Nascar giving the competition an unfair advantage . Nascar was forced to respect the teams wishes and make parity a priority.

yes that all started when Rick and Jack started with two and three car teams with big money sponsors. then dodge gave ray all that money, and now we got this mess. every one has to have the same thing.

 

[Greg]

I'm just remembering when Ford dropped the bird. Jack presented the Taurus as what Nascar had to give them. Ever see a 2 dr Taurus?

The manufacturer wars or crying game was going on as early as the 60s. Ford and Mopar. I don't who was the chicken or egg, or who started it all. I was just a kid at the time amused by my Dad, uncles, and their friends chit talking each other on who was right or wrong. I have read some about it since, talked with a few old timers and that's about all I know. But I am convinced that it was real and that Detroit was more interested in the outcomes then.

Your milage may vary, for all I know it was probably going on in the 50s and prehistoric times too.

 

[Bobw]

I thought it was Jr who started multi car teams before Rick and Jack...

But it was Carl Kiekhaefer who ran the first multi car teams. In fact " he raced five cars at most events during the 1956 season, and even fielded six cars at the 1956 Daytona Beach Road Course race"

Interesting'...
"Kiekhaefer quit NASCAR in January 1957 after battling Bill France, over accusations of cheating by the other competitors (though no rules infractions were found under NASCAR's close scrutiny), NASCAR changed the rules to Kiekhaefer's disadvantage, and he did not want a backlash to affect Mercury sales after fans booed the team.
Nice frikken guys the france family....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Kiekhaefer

 

[Greg]

A long post, hopefully to provide some context. Nothing new for any long time fan, hopefully not a boring read or test of one's patience .

Some things just evolve without a grand design or conspiracy.

Nascar nation or whatever was younger and more innocent back in the good old days. . Some natural beauty that couldn't be orchestrated was part of the deal.

In like manner the old Grand Prix, Indy cars, and Grand National (cup) cars, were just more raw, sexy, romantic... you name it but definitely better. The beautiful thing about the 426 Hemi, 1970 Super Bird was that while it was cutting edge, the latest and greatest of the hour, it still was very limited in terms of chassis and tire construction . The same could be said of Indy and F1 Roadsters, and the early rear engine mono ****pits.
There was less of a ceiling, or maybe we were just better or naive enough to ignore the dangers.
The Frontier was wilder and less understood. Those natural circumstances enabled more innovation in those times. Every year was a new and raw adventure, the new good stuff just keep on coming, and kept on coming like there was no tommorow . It was the golden (but bloody) age.

As the cars got faster and better the ceiling, walls and possibilities constricted, or became more and more limited.
After enough blood shed, in those primitive machines the demand for changes were unavoidable. And those changes were driven from all aspects, drivers, fans, and the masses or general public. There is a reason that Indianapolis keeps the most gruesome photos of the 1964 Eddie Sachs crash unpublished. The masses naturally recoiled with what it did see, and the continued carnage continued to upset the public more and more through the years . After Gordon Smileys body was virtually disintegrated at Indy in 1982, innovation or new and revolutionary pieces went from being common to an exceptional thing.
Smiley ground effects reference
and
Similar F1 reference

The same effect was definitely felt in Nascar when Bobby Allison got airborne at Talladega and took out the catch fence. Nascar's hand was forced to do the thankless but absolutely necessary task.

That intensified or went to an even greater level approx 12 to 15 years ago. Adam Petty, Kenny Irwin, and Dale Earnhardts deaths demanded the changes.

The cars are safer now and that's is a priceless benefit. We have minimized flying cars and avoided a Lemans 1955 type of tragedy. An occurrence that would probably have some justified criminal charges against a sanctioning body, and massive corporate withdrawals. And I am absolutely convinced that we would suffered a similar fate without the plates, as much I hated the necessity.
I don't like everything Brian has done. I hate the chase elimination crap. I despise the closings of Wilkesboro and Rockingham and the onslaught of cookie cutters. I don't even like the corporate suites, they are stale and 180° away from the grass roots. A reminder of the white shirts boring no risk, no dirty nails, or no grit existence.

But keeping the old textile league feel is an allusive thing, an impossible dream. We were fated or destined for many of today's realities. We had to have a safer car, and better rules enforcement. The spec car was unavoidable with or without Brian.

I noted F1 and Indy cars as well because I wanted to demonstrate that the limitations are across the board. It isn't like Nascar is the only one with the adverse effects.

It is also true for many other forms. Drag racing doesn't do a true quarter mile any longer for the 300+mph cars. What used to be super late models has become limited LMS or something similar at most local tracks. Crate engines as in more spec limitations is a prevalent thing. Even the beastly SuperModifieds were forced to defy their very name with imposed left side weight limitations and none of the Shampine rear engine designs.

I want to be able to be a critic of the France empire and I am. Just realize that many problems were unavoidable, with cars to confront a perfect storm. It wouldn't matter if any of the other players were in charge such as Bernie, or Indys revolving leadership, they all have had to take similar spec control like measures.

I still like drivers that can speak their mind. But in many ways the hands of Nascar are tied. All of the rules and specs were created to make the racing better. Nothing is perfect.

 

[Revman]

Well it used to be that "Race on Sunday, Buy on Monday" was a thing in NASCAR, and actually thanks to NASCAR in the early days, car manufacturer did improve their cars so that it could be more competitive in the stock car world. Nowadays though, there's no such correlations between NASCAR and the car manufacturers.

Toyota has research suggesting that 35% of all new Toyota buyers reference some connectedness to NASCAR in their buying decision. Makes you wonder if the lack of a muscle car history has Toyota fans living in the now.

 

[SpeedPagan]

Toyota has research suggesting that 35% of all new Toyota buyers reference some connectedness to NASCAR in their buying decision. Makes you wonder if the lack of a muscle car history has Toyota fans living in the now.

I'll be honest, I'd be interested in seeing what a Japanese muscle car would look like.

 

[Clutch]

I'll be honest, I'd be interested in seeing what a Japanese muscle car would look like.

Well the 2014 Nissan Skyline GTR is a car I'd love to own.
Overview: Nissan’s GT-R may be fugly to some, but as an instrument of pure speed, it’s a thing of beauty. A 545-hp, twin-turbo V-6 and astounding, all-wheel-drive grip give the GT-R supercar performance. Its six-figure price is still cheap compared with anything else so quick. Numerous enhancements over the years have made it faster and more refined, with 0-to-60 times dropping below three seconds. Want more? Check out the NISMO version with 600 hp. This car’s not called Godzilla for nothing.

 

[ted@economy]

Someone mentioned it before , but I'll mention it again ; the loss of Dodge was a huge blow to Nascar .As is the fact that other manufacturers like Honda have never come on board . Nascar is weakened by only having three brands represented.

 

[Revman]

I'll be honest, I'd be interested in seeing what a Japanese muscle car would look like.

Toyota Supra. Lexus ISF, RCF, GSF. They are there, but it is a completely different mindset of course I would never, ever compare my Toyota performance cars with the Mustangs, Camaros, and Chargers. Different mindset and absolutely no tradition compared to them. Not even close. As a Toyota fan, I do not long for the good ole days of NASCAR because for me, there are none when it comes to my manufacturer loyalty.

 

[gone]

Pardon me, but back to the original topic "The on-track product shall not be criticized"...
I sympathize with business owners who do not like their employees saying bad things about the business. But NASCAR drivers and teams are not employed by NASCAR. NASCAR terms them independent contractors, and does not take direct responsibility for their problems. These drivers and teams are customers, like the fans are, except they take more active roles and face much bigger risks. If you tear up your car or your driver gets hurt it is on you to take care of the bills. NASCAR doesn't cover you like an employer would under law. And the risks faced by teams and drivers include not only a lot of money, but their lives as well.

Couple that with NASCAR encouraging the media to put microphones in driver's faces right after significant misfortunes and they've got to expect unhappy noise.

What happened to allowing drivers to express themselves? Hamlin's remarks don't appear too grievous to me - he didn't say anything that wasn't pretty obvious or hadn't already been noted by fans and sportscasters. Brian France has too thin a skin. It's hard to make things better when you refuse criticism and censure criticizers. But I'll allow his record of declining popularity speak for the effectiveness of his policies.

Brian France should realize that he's giving his own organization and himself a black eye by appearing to be an intolerant dictator. If you shut off the grumbling then you kid yourself into thinking that everything is fine and dandy as it is, and you're not likely to really improve. There is enough money and fame potentially available in NASCAR to keep attracting drivers and teams... for now... but NASCAR is having difficulty attracting full fields in its lower divisions, and the top division has a few start-and-parkers.

He should also realize that by muzzling his performers he is aggravating a problem already significant to his fans: bland personalities and phony sounding interviews. But apparently Brian thinks his ego is more important. Unlike his father and grandfather, Brian has been pretty isolated from his customers and his resultant misunderstandings are killing business. It's a shame, and fortunately for him his business is big enough to survive his failings for some time, but he's not too big to fail. Remember when CART was on top of the American racing world? Now a lot of people don't even remember CART at all.

 

[ToyYoda]

I'll be honest, I'd be interested in seeing what a Japanese muscle car would look like.

There have been a few over time. The Toyota Supra, Nissan 300ZX, Mitsubishi 3000GT, all of which were every bit as potent as the Camaros and Mustangs of their era. The closest thing to an affordable Japanese hot rod now would be the Subaru WRX and Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. The Nissan GT-R and Lexus LFA are beasts, but are priced out of most peoples budgets.

 

[ChexOrWrex]

There have been a few over time. The Toyota Supra, Nissan 300ZX, Mitsubishi 3000GT, all of which were every bit as potent as the Camaros and Mustangs of their era. The closest thing to an affordable Japanese hot rod now would be the Subaru WRX and Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. The Nissan GT-R and Lexus LFA are beasts, but are priced out of most peoples budgets.

70's era Nissan C130

 

[Charlie Spencer]

70's era Nissan C130

Seriously? They had a muscle car with the same name as a lumbering, 4-prop cargo aircraft?

 

[Greg]

70's era Nissan C130

Needs a Chevy 350 under the hood.

 

[Greg]