TOYOTA and its Presence in the USA

ReturnTrip said:
Never understood the obsession with car manufacturers. Toyota people are even worse than Chevy/Ford diehards. I think they develop a strange complex constantly vouching for a foreign brand. :D
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I think that people come to a manufacturer for a variety of reasons if their decisions are based on passion instead of simply price. If your experience with a brand is positive (especially when you need it to be), then you might buy another. If an experience is replicated, the loyalty is enhanced...and so on. After loyalty is established, then you make a statement. You tell everybody how great your car is, and start to sing the virtues of your manufacturer..."Built in America," etc. The Japanese brands earned a foothold in this country when the domestics were overpriced crap. The perception was slack union labor producing overpriced crap. People respond to this passionately not simply because taking a car to a dealership to fix problems is irritating, but because failures cost money and are unsafe. At the end of the day, people want to validate buying decisions, and cars bring passion to the conversation (at least they used to). NASCAR enters the equation as the forum to express manufacturer passion (which has been lost & I am hopeful it will come back). Old school fans left the manufacturer pride piece because what is on the track isn't like what is in the garage. I really don't think that racing has been that in any form for a very long time, and nor does it need to be. Manufacturers go racing to pound their chests, and develop that passion and pride that seems to be missing...and in so doing, sell some cars. Toyota is very pleased with its return on its NASCAR investment in this respect...the "Made in America" stuff is the gravy....people on the fence in terms of buying decisions IMO.

If a person such as myself gets to this place where one is brand specific, then people strengthen the bond. Toyota philosophies about cars and productivity are very interesting to me, and I have found the folks at TRD to be extremely kind and appreciative of the support. More than anything else, Toyota is respectful and appreciative of its involvement in NASCAR. They love this series, and Mr. Toyoda himself has been quoted as saying that their involvement will last at least 100 years. In reference to your comment about vouching for a foreign brand.....many comments on this board sufficiently noted that domestic v. foreign is kind of out the door in this global economy. Union v. non-union workplaces is a conversation for another thread (maybe even another forum) IMO.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Regardless of where they're built, the "Japanese" cars are just more reliable.
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No disrespect, but do you have any stats or facts to back this up? I'm generally interested.
I always thought this was propaganda from the televised media and that all their recalls were covered up.

With GMs big ignition problem, all the auto companies now get their recalls out there quickly and it seems like every company has a recall or 3 or more. The Japanese certainly make fine automobiles, I just question the label of "most reliable". I have had friends that have owned Hondas and Toyotas that have spent small fortunes repairing them because they were the "most reliable" cars on the road. I have also had friends drive crappy GMs and Fords. In today's market almost all cars are pretty reliable to the point that they won't leave you stranded on the side of the road unless you don't follow the maintenance schedule.
I also think there are certain models of cars that just last forever. Some of the old 1980's Toyotas and Suzuki's were great if you could prevent them from rusting out. Chevy Novas also seemed to last forever.
 
LouieLouie said:
No disrespect, but do you have any stats or facts to back this up? I'm generally interested.
I always thought this was propaganda from the televised media and that all their recalls were covered up.

With GMs big ignition problem, all the auto companies now get their recalls out there quickly and it seems like every company has a recall or 3 or more. The Japanese certainly make fine automobiles, I just question the label of "most reliable". I have had friends that have owned Hondas and Toyotas that have spent small fortunes repairing them because they were the "most reliable" cars on the road. I have also had friends drive crappy GMs and Fords. In today's market almost all cars are pretty reliable to the point that they won't leave you stranded on the side of the road unless you don't follow the maintenance schedule.
I also think there are certain models of cars that just last forever. Some of the old 1980's Toyotas and Suzuki's were great if you could prevent them from rusting out. Chevy Novas also seemed to last forever.
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The reliability index ranks Toyota as the 4th most reliable manufacturer.

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
 
The cost of the parts is a factor so Toyota could be #1 but because of the cost to repair a failure is high it drops them to 4th place.
Reliability should only consider the cars manufactured verses part failures and recalls.
Toyota just got nailed for a huge recall.
 
Team Penske said:
The cost of the parts is a factor so Toyota could be #1 but because of the cost to repair a failure is high it drops them to 4th place.
Reliability should only consider the cars manufactured verses part failures and recalls.
Toyota just got nailed for a huge recall.
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The nature of the recall should be considered as well. What was recalled is more significant than a recall in an of itself IMO. Reliability is a hard thing to pin down.
 
While both of those are significant factors ... for me one detail always shines more important when a recall rears it's head. The time frame between discovering the problem and issuing the recall. I'd rather drive a car with more problems .. knowing that the company will own up to those problems. Hell ... I'll even eat some of the repair cost ... but being honest with me goes a long, long way. It's been a long time since GM was honest with anyone. Then never did deal with the intake manifold problem on the 3.4l v6
 
LouieLouie said:
No disrespect, but do you have any stats or facts to back this up? I'm generally interested.
I always thought this was propaganda from the televised media and that all their recalls were covered up.

With GMs big ignition problem, all the auto companies now get their recalls out there quickly and it seems like every company has a recall or 3 or more. The Japanese certainly make fine automobiles, I just question the label of "most reliable". I have had friends that have owned Hondas and Toyotas that have spent small fortunes repairing them because they were the "most reliable" cars on the road. I have also had friends drive crappy GMs and Fords. In today's market almost all cars are pretty reliable to the point that they won't leave you stranded on the side of the road unless you don't follow the maintenance schedule.
I also think there are certain models of cars that just last forever. Some of the old 1980's Toyotas and Suzuki's were great if you could prevent them from rusting out. Chevy Novas also seemed to last forever.
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Interestingly enough the Chevy Nova was a re-badged Toyota and when you popped the hood you could see Toyota stamped on the engine.

When it comes to what other people drive and enjoy owning I am totally cool and support whatever choice they make. If someone asks for my opinion I will give it but other than that I keep my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. I think one of the best sources of information regarding vehicle quality and cost of ownership is a qualified auto tech that actually sees what type of repairs cars are coming in for.

Based on my ownership experience of GM vehicles and the experiences of others with GM and Chrysler products I am very leery of them and would rather purchase something else that I have had a good experience with. I know of several GM and Chrysler owners that have experienced transmission problems at 30 or 40,000 miles plus premature rusting has also been an issue. GM vehicles I have been acquainted with have suffered from piston slap, intermediate steering shaft problems, steering rack failures, HVAC blend door failure, fuel level sensor failure, oil consumption plus a bunch of other nagging problems that make the ownership problem costly and unsatisfactory.

Even though GM vehicles are not for me I totally understand that a guy living 1 mile away from me may have been buying GM products for 50 years and has had nothing but good experiences. I know one guy who will buy nothing but Ford trucks and another guy who won't get within 10 feet of them because an F-150 he owned kept blowing out spark plugs and an F-250 diesel he owned just about made him go postal. Who knows why this is but I honor whatever decision a person makes when spending hard earned money on a vehicle of their choice.
 
Professur said:
While both of those are significant factors ... for me one detail always shines more important when a recall rears it's head. The time frame between discovering the problem and issuing the recall. I'd rather drive a car with more problems .. knowing that the company will own up to those problems. Hell ... I'll even eat some of the repair cost ... but being honest with me goes a long, long way. It's been a long time since GM was honest with anyone. Then never did deal with the intake manifold problem on the 3.4l v6
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GM tried different gaskets but never solved the problem of leaking intakes and with the 3.1/3.4 and you could count on changing them every 25-35K. The OHC 3.4 liter engine was a complete POS as were some of the Northstar engines. Also GM has never seemed to be able to add oil cooler lines to a vehicle without them leaking in short order and/or blowing out completely.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
GM tried different gaskets but never solved the problem of leaking intakes and with the 3.1/3.4 and you could count on changing them every 25-35K. The OHC 3.4 liter engine was a complete POS as were some of the Northstar engines. Also GM has never seemed to be able to add oil cooler lines to a vehicle without them leaking in short order and/or blowing out completely.
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That made me furious .. it was the only real black spot on my Pontiac Transport .. but it was enough to make me give it up. I loved driving that van. The steering on that was ... epic. I could put it within a dimes-width of anything. Parallel parking was childsplay.
 
LouieLouie said:
No disrespect, but do you have any stats or facts to back this up? I'm generally interested.
I always thought this was propaganda from the televised media and that all their recalls were covered up.

With GMs big ignition problem, all the auto companies now get their recalls out there quickly and it seems like every company has a recall or 3 or more. The Japanese certainly make fine automobiles, I just question the label of "most reliable". I have had friends that have owned Hondas and Toyotas that have spent small fortunes repairing them because they were the "most reliable" cars on the road. I have also had friends drive crappy GMs and Fords. In today's market almost all cars are pretty reliable to the point that they won't leave you stranded on the side of the road unless you don't follow the maintenance schedule.
I also think there are certain models of cars that just last forever. Some of the old 1980's Toyotas and Suzuki's were great if you could prevent them from rusting out. Chevy Novas also seemed to last forever.
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I think pretty much any new car will run for a long time if you take care of it. But unfortunately, a lot of people think maintenance just means "oil change", and they pay the price down the road. My Camry has been good to me but I've had it nearly 7 years and it's getting up in miles, so I'll probably be buying a car in the next 6 months to a year, and I do have some domestics on my shopping list.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
GM tried different gaskets but never solved the problem of leaking intakes and with the 3.1/3.4 and you could count on changing them every 25-35K. The OHC 3.4 liter engine was a complete POS as were some of the Northstar engines. Also GM has never seemed to be able to add oil cooler lines to a vehicle without them leaking in short order and/or blowing out completely.
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If you own a GM V6, plan on changing the intake gaskets around 120k, much like people expect to replace the timing belt and water pump on a Honda at 100k. The problem is that most people are too lazy to maintain their cars properly or even check the oil every now and then. So they don't do preventative maintenance, nor do they know when the intake gaskets start leaking. 6 months later when the motor fails, they blame the car.

Yes, Northstars are junk. And the DOHC 3.4 was ok, it was just a really bad design so working on it was ridiculously more time consuming than it should have been. The 4.3 in the trucks and the 3800 were some of the best engines ever made.

GM's V8 engines, specifically the small block Chevy and the LS-based variants, are fantastic engines as well. The 4-cylinders have always been hit or miss.
 
Sweet .. on what other vehicle anywhere is the intake gasket considered a consumable? As for lazy and preventative .... Don't be an idiot. Download the owner's manual for any GM product using that engine, look at the maintenance tables and show me where it says anything about the intake gasket. I'll wait. For what it's worth, every time I noticed any drop in the coolant level, I had it tested. Never showed any leak under test ...until it dumped the entire radiator into the oilpan. What it took for him to pull the intake (I had him pull both heads for inspection too .. just because I'm so lazy) was criminal. No other way to describe it. Wasn't really a surprise tho ... given what the dealership quoted me for changing spark plug. $400 for 6 plugs I thought was just a hair excessive. Then I did them myself and realized they weren't blowing smoke about the time required. Having to remove engine mounts just to be able to play blind man's bluff searching at arm's length for the rear three ... what madman thought that was a good design. Best of luck getting the plug wires on.
 
Professur said:
Sweet .. on what other vehicle anywhere is the intake gasket considered a consumable? As for lazy and preventative .... Don't be an idiot. Download the owner's manual for any GM product using that engine, look at the maintenance tables and show me where it says anything about the intake gasket. I'll wait. For what it's worth, every time I noticed any drop in the coolant level, I had it tested. Never showed any leak under test ...until it dumped the entire radiator into the oilpan. What it took for him to pull the intake (I had him pull both heads for inspection too .. just because I'm so lazy) was criminal. No other way to describe it. Wasn't really a surprise tho ... given what the dealership quoted me for changing spark plug. $400 for 6 plugs I thought was just a hair excessive. Then I did them myself and realized they weren't blowing smoke about the time required. Having to remove engine mounts just to be able to play blind man's bluff searching at arm's length for the rear three ... what madman thought that was a good design. Best of luck getting the plug wires on.
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Hey, I never said the gaskets were a good design, I'm just saying your average Joe has no idea how to tell when there's coolant in his oil, because he doesn't check the oil or coolant, and probably doesn't pay attention to the gauges either when it starts running hot. I've seen this a hundred times. But yes, the intake gaskets were a significant problem, I'm not disputing that.

I did the gaskets on my 3800 at 140k miles just as preventative maintenance, and it was a two hour job. All the other GM V6's in my family went well over 200k on the original gaskets. Obviously everyone will have different experiences, good and bad.
 
Did I take a wrong turn on my way to the Nascar forum?
 
I feel certain my '63 Nova was not a Toyota. If it had Toyota stamped on the engine, it was inside somewhere and not visible without a teardown. It was a pretty good car and survived a lot of abuse.
 
It wasn't.

The Toyolet appeared in 1984 or 5. Garbage.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think pretty much any new car will run for a long time if you take care of it. But unfortunately, a lot of people think maintenance just means "oil change", and they pay the price down the road. My Camry has been good to me but I've had it nearly 7 years and it's getting up in miles, so I'll probably be buying a car in the next 6 months to a year, and I do have some domestics on my shopping list.
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Definitely check out an Optima and Sonata as they are really good rides. Of course the Camry and Accord are the gold standard but are very salty compared to the Optima/Sonata. I love my Nissans but I am likely done with them due to the CVT transmissions as they are expensive nightmares. The only domestic I would look at is Ford and I have heard good things about the Fusion and Taurus.
 
2 Sweet said:
If you own a GM V6, plan on changing the intake gaskets around 120k, much like people expect to replace the timing belt and water pump on a Honda at 100k. The problem is that most people are too lazy to maintain their cars properly or even check the oil every now and then. So they don't do preventative maintenance, nor do they know when the intake gaskets start leaking. 6 months later when the motor fails, they blame the car.

Yes, Northstars are junk. And the DOHC 3.4 was ok, it was just a really bad design so working on it was ridiculously more time consuming than it should have been. The 4.3 in the trucks and the 3800 were some of the best engines ever made.

GM's V8 engines, specifically the small block Chevy and the LS-based variants, are fantastic engines as well. The 4-cylinders have always been hit or miss.
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You had to drop the front cradle on cars with the 3.4 DOHC to change the alternator.....ugggggh! The 3800 was a beauty and I had a 1989 Olds 88 with that engine and it got better fuel economy then any car I've had since and was bullet proof. I know people that have had 4.3's go over 300K without the heads ever being off.
 
ted@economy said:
I drive a Pontiac Vibe . It's built on a Toyota Matrix chassis , with a Toyota Matrix transmission and suspension . It's half GM half Toyota . I have no dog in this fight .
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Well at least it ain't a PT Cruiser?
 
aunty dive said:
It wasn't.

The Toyolet appeared in 1984 or 5. Garbage.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevy_II_/_Nova

The Nova nameplate returned in 1985, produced through 1988 as a NUMMI manufactured, subcompact based on the front wheel drive, Japan home-based Toyota Sprinter.

The Toyota Sprinter was an up-level Corolla produce for the Japanese market. The NUMMI plant in Fremont California used to produce F body cars (Firebird-Camaro) and has such poor quality GM raised the red flag and entered into a joint venture with Toyota which was not really a joint venture but GM watching Toy do its thing. NUMMI continued producing Corollas and then GEO Prizms and after that I believe they built the Pontiac Vibe (a rebadged Toyota Matrix) as well as the Matrix. I believe Tesla now owns the former NUMMI plant but I would need to verify to be 100%.

The mid 80's Nova's were a godsend for Chevy dealers as compared to the Cavalier the rebadged Sprinter/Corolla (Nova) it was a winner and it was a great little car for the time.
 
ted@economy said:
I drive a Pontiac Vibe . It's built on a Toyota Matrix chassis , with a Toyota Matrix transmission and suspension . It's half GM half Toyota . I have no dog in this fight .
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Great car as it is 100% Toyota except maybe for the radio. I am not sure why Aunty thought the mid 80's Nova was not a Toyota but it was.
 
One of the guys in the club has had a Vibe for a good many years now. He had it when I bought the 4Runner 'n that's an '07. Best I know he hasn't had any trouble with it.

A lady friend had a PT thing. She'd get all upset when anyone (mostly me) referred to it as a Neon station wagon. Last time I saw her she'd ditched it for a Scion.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
You had to drop the front cradle on cars with the 3.4 DOHC to change the alternator.....ugggggh! The 3800 was a beauty and I had a 1989 Olds 88 with that engine and it got better fuel economy then any car I've had since and was bullet proof. I know people that have had 4.3's go over 300K without the heads ever being off.
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Agreed - had a few 3800's over the years and lost the lower manifold gasket on one after ~80k miles but that's it.
 
I had a 2005 Tacoma. Beautiful blue paint on it that wouldn't stay on it. Noticed chipping along the front and all along the sides. Totally took the proud feeling I had of my new beautiful truck away. Terrible experience.
 
Ford 222 said:
I had a 2005 Tacoma. Beautiful blue paint on it that wouldn't stay on it. Noticed chipping along the front and all along the sides. Totally took the proud feeling I had of my new beautiful truck away. Terrible experience.
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Every GM car has the same problem around the wheel wells within 3-5 years.
A friend said it is because the robots are not programmed properly.
 
Team Penske said:
Every GM car has the same problem around the wheel wells within 3-5 years.
A friend said it is because the robots are not programmed properly.
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Interesting.

My 03 monte carlo started rusting right at the rear of the front wheel wells - I never understood why they would wrap the fenders inside the wheel wells with no protection.
 
Team Penske said:
Every GM car has the same problem around the wheel wells within 3-5 years.
A friend said it is because the robots are not programmed properly.
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It seemed to be an issue with that shade of blue paint. I went to Tacoma forums and saw numerous others complaining about the same thing.

Was a beautiful truck when new and I take care of my vehicles so when paint started coming off in chunks it ruined the whole new car experience.
 
LouieLouie said:
No disrespect, but do you have any stats or facts to back this up? I'm generally interested.
I always thought this was propaganda from the televised media and that all their recalls were covered up.
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The media crucified Toyota over a recall several years ago to protect GM, but that's another issue.

I've had very good personal experiences with Toyota and Subaru. The repairs I had to make to my cars, which were older cars, were generally very inexpensive and almost always were an issue of suspension or minor things in the motor. Whereas, with GM vehicles, my repairs were always 100 percent of the time major repairs and the cars genuinely sucked. Maybe GM cars are better now.

FWIW, I actually like Ford. About to buy a couple Ford pickup trucks. GM and Chrysler can get bent though. There's a better chance of Danica Patrick dumping Ricky Stenhouse and asking me out than there is of me buying a GM or Chrysler product.

Well, unless the GM product is a '68 El Camino or a '63 Corvette.
 
Hahaha, I have a new Platinum thats been the shop three times in its first 2K miles. First the instrument cluster crapped out, then check engine light which they reset, came on again and they replaced fuel pressure sensor.
Now its going back at 2200 miles for knocking in the front suspension.
FORD = POS
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The media crucified Toyota over a recall several years ago to protect GM, but that's another issue.

I've had very good personal experiences with Toyota and Subaru. The repairs I had to make to my cars, which were older cars, were generally very inexpensive and almost always were an issue of suspension or minor things in the motor. Whereas, with GM vehicles, my repairs were always 100 percent of the time major repairs and the cars genuinely sucked. Maybe GM cars are better now.

FWIW, I actually like Ford. About to buy a couple Ford pickup trucks. GM and Chrysler can get bent though. There's a better chance of Danica Patrick dumping Ricky Stenhouse and asking me out than there is of me buying a GM or Chrysler product.

Well, unless the GM product is a '68 El Camino or a '63 Corvette.
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What about a chevelle?? ;)

Same boat - I can only go off my own experience but I had a Toyota 4Runner for 18ish years and that thing ran like a champ but the frame eventually rotted out. I live in upstate NY with all the salt so 18 isn't bad.
 
Ford 222 said:
I had a 2005 Tacoma. Beautiful blue paint on it that wouldn't stay on it. Noticed chipping along the front and all along the sides. Totally took the proud feeling I had of my new beautiful truck away. Terrible experience.
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That certainly leave a bad taste in your mouth.
 
Taco said:
Hahaha, I have a new Platinum thats been the shop three times in its first 2K miles. First the instrument cluster crapped out, then check engine light which they reset, came on again and they replaced fuel pressure sensor.
Now its going back at 2200 miles for knocking in the front suspension.
FORD = POS
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Ouch!
 
Taco said:
Hahaha, I have a new Platinum thats been the shop three times in its first 2K miles. First the instrument cluster crapped out, then check engine light which they reset, came on again and they replaced fuel pressure sensor.
Now its going back at 2200 miles for knocking in the front suspension.
FORD = POS
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Sounds like you might have a Lemon Law case if it's that new and been in the shop that many times.
 
They say to check the production date on a car before buying. Forget Mondays and Fridays. If your buying GM forget Tues. and Thursday as well. :rolleyes:
 
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