What Do you Think of the New Package?

StandOnIt

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No I don't. I stated that Harvick cited comments from Truex about how hard it was to pass. He did. Truex has made differing remarks at different times. I'm trying to be accurate, not just argue my side and machine gun any of the figures who believe differently.
now you are talking about the Dover race, hmm thought in context that was about the package in general, but you first sentence painted a broad picture of the package in general which you hate and what those two said about Dover so EXCUSE ME:p. BTW in context to Kyle's statement they were going too fast, Jones said he liked the speed, so did Elliott. BTW none of those two are bitching. :D
 

AdoubleU24

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I found this quote interesting as well:

"Our team is not aligned with a lot of the decisions and some of the things that have happened in the sport. … I think we’ve got to pull the owners into this conversation because a lot of them have pushed NASCAR into doing the things they’ve done from a financial situation. … We have to get the drivers and owners to be more on the same page with what’s going on from the owner’s and NASCAR standpoint and get that communication right. That’s a piece of the puzzle that’s missing. "

In other words, it was reported that some teams dissented and voted against adopting the high downforce package last year. This all but confirms that SHR was one of them.
But...but...cOlLaBoRaTiVe EfFoRt!

My foot.
 

gnomesayin

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The context of the thread and discussion is the 2019 high and higher downforce package(s). Not a single person is talking about Dover alone in a vacuum, pro or con.
 

LewTheShoe

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Harvick didn't say much about Dover specifically and talked about the entirety of the 2019 rules, the process and lack of driver input, his team's opposition to changes that have been made, owner financial issues, and cited comments from Erik Jones, Truex, and others. You don't have to look far back to find other critical comments from other drivers, so it won't work to claim that it's two drivers and try to isolate them.

Austin Dillon likes it. Logano seems to, and Brad is at least agnostic and choosing not to criticize, though he argued for low downforce previously as well. Elliott said it's what we have so we may as well like it. There's your yays for the package. By and large it's not the drivers' preference, this much should be obvious for all.
Yeah, Kez is opposed, but trying to fly under the radar ATM. He was pretty vocal about that before the racing season got underway. I haven't seen Logano comment one way or the other, but he is loving his life since joining Team Penske, so he's gonna be OK with whatever that entails. It's his happy-go-lucky nature.

Both Kez and Joey have a recurring gig on Fox's Race Hub, which I believe means any overt criticism of Nascar is a no-no. Chad Knaus too. He spent 16 years exploiting the skills of the greatest driver of this era, so he knows all about racing in a skill-based meritocracy. But on Race Hub, he is loath to criticize anything, choosing to focus on optimizing the hand he has been dealt. Frankly, I can understand that approach... which is not to say I like it.

No one was more politically correct than Eddie Haskell Carl Edwards. But when his moment to lead appeared, he stepped right up. I think Harvick would like to be that guy now. But Harvick's reputation as a two-faced hypocrite might make that impossible, or perhaps too uncomfortable. We'll see in the coming weeks.
 

StandOnIt

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The context of the thread and discussion is the 2019 high and higher downforce package(s). Not a single person is talking about Dover alone in a vacuum, pro or con.
cited comments from Erik Jones, Truex, and others.
i think you might need to uncross your wires for Truex.
here is a sited comment from an other.
Martin Truex Jr: Kansas could be one of the ‘coolest races of the year’
Truex said. “I think the cool part about going there is that it’s a great race track and it’s weathered over the years since that repave (in 2012). … I think that will play into making the package we’re taking there even better than it’s been at some other places. I think it has the potential to be one of the coolest races of the year honestly. It’s going to be fun.”
“I thought Texas we had a better race than we’ve had there the last couple years,” Truex said. “At a place where it’s tough to run two-wide and things like that, I thought we had some good racing.
 

StandOnIt

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Yeah, Kez is opposed, but trying to fly under the radar ATM. He was pretty vocal about that before the racing season got underway. I haven't seen Logano comment one way or the other, but he is loving his life since joining Team Penske, so he's gonna be OK with whatever that entails. It's his happy-go-lucky nature.

Both Kez and Joey have a recurring gig on Fox's Race Hub, which I believe means any overt criticism of Nascar is a no-no. Chad Knaus too. He spent 16 years exploiting the skills of the greatest driver of this era, so he knows all about racing in a skill-based meritocracy. But on Race Hub, he is loath to criticize anything, choosing to focus on optimizing the hand he has been dealt. Frankly, I can understand that approach... which is not to say I like it.

No one was more politically correct than Eddie Haskell Carl Edwards. But when his moment to lead appeared, he stepped right up. I think Harvick would like to be that guy now. But Harvick's reputation as a two-faced hypocrite might make that impossible, or perhaps too uncomfortable. We'll see in the coming weeks.
so far you anti package bandwagon people have Harvick and Bush on your bandwagon. I suspect both will bail as soon as they get another win. :D be praising the car, the team, and most of all, their sponsor's who are paying the bills.
 

gnomesayin

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so far you anti package bandwagon people have Harvick and Bush on your bandwagon. I suspect both will bail as soon as they get another win. :D be praising the car, the team, and most of all, their sponsor's who are paying the bills.
This is laughable given that it has been illustrated that Busch slams rules packages he doesn't like even when he wins.

You'd do better to slow down with the insults. If the package is working well and only two drivers out of 36 dislike it and 34 are in favor, I wouldn't be riled up in your position. What are you worried about, Kyle Busch's great charisma convincing everyone? ;)
 

StandOnIt

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This is laughable given that it has been illustrated that Busch slams rules packages he doesn't like even when he wins.

You'd do better to slow down with the insults. If the package is working well and only two drivers out of 36 dislike it and 34 are in favor, I wouldn't be riled up in your position. What are you worried about, Kyle Busch's great charisma convincing everyone? ;)
who's riled? I'm not the one doing all of the complaining, coming up with all of these arguments real or imagined against it.
 

LewTheShoe

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I think they'll go back towards low downforce eventually and Gen-7 is pushed back to 2022.

It's nigh impossible to have an actual discussion about this but I'll just say it's hard to see them sticking to this philosophy for the new car. Backlash from both the fans and the garage is already spilling over and if you put any stock into the Gluck polls two-thirds of the races thus far have been received less favorably compared to 2018 and 2017. It just doesn't seem to make sense for anyone, but as with most cases, it will take a while for NASCAR management to do an about-face.
:dual9mm: I'm sure you're right, FL. At least I hope you are. A few weeks ago, I even offered the spin that Steve O'Donnell could use when announcing yet another 180-degree reversal of NASCAR's philosophy of automobile racing...
The spin: we did what we had to do until we got this new car ready, but now we are ready!!
 

StandOnIt

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I think they will add more Gen 7 parts for testing next year so that gives some yet another year of complaining, and then when the new car comes out , wowzie a whole new can of worms for the critics to go on and on about. Exciting times.
 

Turtle84

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I found this quote interesting as well:

"Our team is not aligned with a lot of the decisions and some of the things that have happened in the sport. … I think we’ve got to pull the owners into this conversation because a lot of them have pushed NASCAR into doing the things they’ve done from a financial situation. … We have to get the drivers and owners to be more on the same page with what’s going on from the owner’s and NASCAR standpoint and get that communication right. That’s a piece of the puzzle that’s missing. "

In other words, it was reported that some teams dissented and voted against adopting the high downforce package last year. This all but confirms that SHR was one of them.
If certain owner's are that financially strapped, that they become that desperate to push for cost cutting measures, at the detriment to the on-track product, perhaps it is time to renegotiate with NASCAR how the pie is getting divvied up. To provide the best product to the fans.
 

FLRacingFan

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Just want to make clear that even last year it was reported that, despite a majority of teams in favor, there were dissenting votes. Presumably these included SHR, and I would even suggest JGR.

 

FLRacingFan

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But...but...cOlLaBoRaTiVe EfFoRt!

My foot.
Every single major NASCAR decision is presented with the idea that it was made with "unprecedented industry collaboration". I bet if you went back through the press releases and press conferences for the past decade or so you could find that quote verbatim many times...rarely actually seems to be the case, though.
 

Ventisca

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...
Every single major NASCAR decision is presented with the idea that it was made with "unprecedented industry collaboration". I bet if you went back through the press releases and press conferences for the past decade or so you could find that quote verbatim many times...rarely actually seems to be the case, though.
"...failure is an orphan."
 

gnomesayin

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The best package-related driver comment of the season is still Christopher Bell saying he is fine staying in the Xfinity series longer because he prefers the rules package there to what they've done on the Cup side.
 

Turtle84

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Every single major NASCAR decision is presented with the idea that it was made with "unprecedented industry collaboration". I bet if you went back through the press releases and press conferences for the past decade or so you could find that quote verbatim many times...rarely actually seems to be the case, though.
Yep, they love to use that one.
 

Ventisca

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If teams and their drivers had some say in the process and approval of major rule changes -- then to keep yapping about it in public makes the dissenters appear as drama queens looking for attention and validation.

IF the owners, teams and drivers have differences of opinion on the rules both present and future, then Harvick trying to heap crap on NASCAR is a bit misguided.
 

Turtle84

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I wonder what happened to pack racing and driver's like David Regan will be winning races with these choked down cars like I was told was going to happen?
Dover is not a 1.5. Kansas Practice 1 is looking wide open and small packy, again if you thought pack meant Dega or Daytona exact replica, then you're just off. MRN announcers in practice 1 literally just said "Driver's working in a huge pack".
 

StandOnIt

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Dover is not a 1.5. Kansas Practice 1 is looking wide open and small packy, again if you thought pack meant Dega or Daytona exact replica, then you're just off. MRN announcers in practice 1 literally just said "Driver's working in a huge pack".
sorry bud I believe you are one of those that was saying that. It wasn't me. I guess you've slept since then
 

Turtle84

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sorry bud I believe you are one of those that was saying that. It wasn't me. I guess you've slept since then
The point being SOI is that the draft is much more in play now on the 1.5's than any time previously. Takes less driver skill to hold it wide open and barely breathe it, you basically got what you got with the car on speed. It can still produce an entertaining race, as did the previous package.
 

StandOnIt

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The point being SOI is that the draft is much more in play now on the 1.5's than any time previously. Takes less driver skill to hold it wide open and barely breathe it, you basically got what you got with the car on speed. It can still produce an entertaining race, as did the previous package.
hmm singing a different song and telling me what I already know.
 

gnomesayin

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No, it's not just two drivers. And no, Truex is not a fan generally.


Having said that, it is quite debatable whether venting public frustration is helpful, or if doing it privately is more effective. The crux of the matter is what Harvick said about feeling like drivers' opinions aren't being heard. At that point, it makes sense to go public.

In my view, Busch has handled it poorly by petutlantly bashing instead of explaining anything beyond "it sucks". This does little to win anyone over. Harvick has been more circumspect and careful, and i don't find any fault with his approach on this issue.
 

Mispeedway15

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Governance by committee really doesn't work all that well. Yes, the head of the business needs to listen to input from sources,
but someone has to be in charge and make the decisions.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
My only problem is I’m sick of hearing drivers and people complain. I don’t care if you take all the downforce off the car, these things are so engineered anymore it’s crazy
 

gnomesayin

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Governance by committee really doesn't work all that well. Yes, the head of the business needs to listen to input from sources,
but someone has to be in charge and make the decisions.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
In the space of a day or two, the discussion has moved from whether there was successful industry-wide collaboration to suggestions that collaboration doesn't work and drivers and team owners shouldn't be a part of the process anyway. Chase Elliott is entitled to his view just like everyone else. Since his Stockholm-ish sounding opinion is that his opinion doesn't matter, I guess he's invalidated himself. Other prominent drivers and surely owners don't believe that, and are taking part publicly or privately.

Personally I have never understood people who love racing but begrudge race car drivers and don't trust their opinions. Who do they trust more? Executives and promotors, apparently. That's fine, all sides of the sport matter greatly, but I know who my interests are most closely aligned with, and it's not the suits upstairs.

Logano is the marquee driver who seems most willing to speak out in favor of the package. His opinion absolutely matters.
 
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Turtle84

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Governance by committee really doesn't work all that well. Yes, the head of the business needs to listen to input from sources,
but someone has to be in charge and make the decisions.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
I agree with this, yet it's the main problem the nascar big wigs are not good decision makers. I trust the driver's more than them.
 

gnomesayin

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Governance by committee really doesn't work all that well. Yes, the head of the business needs to listen to input from sources,
but someone has to be in charge and make the decisions.
You can't please all of the people all of the time.
I re-read this and want to clarify. I think you're essentially right on a broad level. Everyone is never going to be happy, and those charged with leading the series have to make final decisions. When NASCAR made the rules package changes for 2017 and 2018, they did so after listening to and prioritizing certain factions within the industry. When they reversed course for 2019, they listened to different factions.

Essentially, in terms of the on-track product, I think they got it a lot closer to right the first time.
 

DUN24

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I re-read this and want to clarify. I think you're essentially right on a broad level. Everyone is never going to be happy, and those charged with leading the series have to make final decisions. When NASCAR made the rules package changes for 2017 and 2018, they did so after listening to and prioritizing certain factions within the industry. When they reversed course for 2019, they listened to different factions.

Essentially, in terms of the on-track product, I think they got it a lot closer to right the first time.
Better yet is when they listened to no-one and let them develop gobs of small-displacement horsepower and threw them at every track.

Landon Cassill during a practice session at Darlington in 2014 told some pit reporter, "This track makes you feel like a man"... haven't heard a driver speak so complimentary of a track since.
 
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