Who is Better?

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So much has been said of the golden child Bell but then it was the same for Jones.
With both drivers having 1 year in Cup driving a JGR 5th car, who has the better record to date?
 

wi_racefan

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Jones had a better average finish is in his first year than Bell (17.1 to 20.2). But that number is harder to compare than you think due to no qualifying Bell always started pretty far back.

Looking at them purely side by side as first year drivers I would probably lean towards Jones a little more. The thing is now we know what Jones has done in Cup and we can only speculate what Bell will do.
 

ChexOrWrex

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Top equipment/data will always go to Busch, Hamlin and MTJ. Some of these young Toyota drivers would do themselves a favor and get off the JGR teet. Ask Joey.

They’ll have their best seasons under different leadership.
 

Revman

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Top equipment/data will always go to Busch, Hamlin and MTJ. Some of these young Toyota drivers would do themselves a favor and get off the JGR teet. Ask Joey.

They’ll have their best seasons under different leadership.
Fact checker @StandOnIt? Posts like this just make me shake my head. Fine if that is your opinion, but to post as statement of fact is bull****. I don't have a problem with bias one way or another--I am the biggest fanboi here, but to state that Kyle, Denny, and MTJ get the best equipment and data as a statement of fact is bull****. You have no source, so I won't ask for one. Joey was shoved in that car earlier than he was supposed to be because Stewart had a **** fit about driving Toyotas and he wanted to be back in a Chevy (that didn't age well). He had his shot, but the timing was terrible. He was offered an Xfinity ride before he jumped to Penske. They were trying to give him more time. I hate what happened to Jones. I hope he is successful down the line, and WE get him back, honestly.
 

Revman

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.
 

StandOnIt

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.
Hendrick said years ago that "driver development" didn't work. Toyota continues to prove it. Ford wins Nascar, Chevy wins Xfinity, and Chevy wins the trucks manufacturer's championship and Toyota is tied with the Hudson's
 

AuzGrams

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.

Toyota does a terrible job developing drivers for their own Cup cars, but I agree with your post for the most part.

I’m interested to see what will happen the next few years with 23XI.
 

StandOnIt

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.
hmmm lets see. Hailie Deegan-Ford, going to increase the hell out of viewership in the trucks next year (left Toyota because there wasn't any way to move up because of all of the drivers in the pipeline that Tony was talking about) and she will sell some Fords to the female side of the sport. Chase Briscoe -Ford, moves up to SHR without a screw job happening and nobody losing their franchise over it. Austin Cendric -Ford, Xfinity champion, brought up by Penske who will not only race full time in Xfinity but part time in Cup for Penske next year. And Gragson, and Byron who left Toyota and who went to Chevy. Eh, that is enough talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy for me anyway.
 

wi_racefan

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Toyota does a terrible job developing drivers for their own Cup cars, but I agree with your post for the most part.

I’m interested to see what will happen the next few years with 23XI.

Probably getting off topic but I think one of the biggest problems that Toyota has with judging talent is that their equipment is just that much better than everyone else's in the lower series. Who's the last guy that hung around any significant amount of time with JGR in the Xfintiy series and didn't win?
 

StandOnIt

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Hailie Deegan-Ford, going to increase the hell out of viewership in the trucks next year (left Toyota because there wasn't any way to move up because of all of the drivers in the pipeline that Tony was talking about) and she will sell some Fords to the female side of the sport.
“Hailie’s Holiday Haul” was made possible by the new 2021 F-150 that she drove from Ford Performance headquarters in Dearborn to Detroit this morning.
“We put this new 2021 F-150 to the test today, I can tell you that,” Deegan said. “It is so cool to drive through Detroit and get to see the community with this huge haul of turkeys in the back, knowing that we are helping so many people today. I have never been prouder to be a part of the Ford family.”

Deegan, who will pilot a Ford F-150 in the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series next season, was touched by the response to her visit to the motor city.

 

sdj

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“Hailie’s Holiday Haul” was made possible by the new 2021 F-150 that she drove from Ford Performance headquarters in Dearborn to Detroit this morning.
“We put this new 2021 F-150 to the test today, I can tell you that,” Deegan said. “It is so cool to drive through Detroit and get to see the community with this huge haul of turkeys in the back, knowing that we are helping so many people today. I have never been prouder to be a part of the Ford family.”

Deegan, who will pilot a Ford F-150 in the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series next season, was touched by the response to her visit to the motor city.


This is a win win for all involved. :salute:
 

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Toyota does a terrible job developing drivers for their own Cup cars, but I agree with your post for the most part.

I’m interested to see what will happen the next few years with 23XI.
Yep, Toyota’s problem is that they only have one viable Cup team. Ford has Penske and Stewart-Haas (and to a lesser degree Roush-Fenway), while Chevrolet has Hendrick, RCR, and Ganassi. Outside of JGR, Toyota doesn’t have anywhere good for these guys to go, and Kyle, Denny, and Martin aren’t going anywhere until they’re ready to.
 

ChexOrWrex

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Yep, Toyota’s problem is that they only have one viable Cup team. Ford has Penske and Stewart-Haas (and to a lesser degree Roush-Fenway), while Chevrolet has Hendrick, RCR, and Ganassi. Outside of JGR, Toyota doesn’t have anywhere good for these guys to go, and Kyle, Denny, and Martin aren’t going anywhere until they’re ready to.
The main Toyota team in Cup has either murdered or absorbed any of their competition. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
 

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Reading through this has made me realize that No Toyota development driver has won a champion. Kyle was a product of HMS and Truex is a GM driver as well. Denny has never won for any manufacturer. Anyone who did win for JGR was in another manufacturers car. Seems to me that Toyota isn't such a great manufacturer to get involved with. Drivers not named Hamlin or Bush such as Joey, Jones, Suarez never lasted to long. Instead JGR raided Ford to get Carl and Kenseth.
Remind me why some people think JGR is a good team to sign with.
 

aunty dive

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Seems to me that Toyota isn't such a great manufacturer to get involved with.

Remind me why some people think JGR is a good team to sign with.
You’d have to ask someone in the lineup.

It goes around the block.
 

StandOnIt

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Reading through this has made me realize that No Toyota development driver has won a champion. Kyle was a product of HMS and Truex is a GM driver as well. Denny has never won for any manufacturer. Anyone who did win for JGR was in another manufacturers car. Seems to me that Toyota isn't such a great manufacturer to get involved with. Drivers not named Hamlin or Bush such as Joey, Jones, Suarez never lasted to long. Instead JGR raided Ford to get Carl and Kenseth.
Remind me why some people think JGR is a good team to sign with.
well, with Jones getting the knife, Bell is the new blood in the revolving door 20 car hearing footsteps behind him, and they have young Harrison with papa gerbil mentioning his name every other word in Xfinity, and it looks like they have a preacher blood relative Coy Gibbs starting in the trucks part time that probably will pass them all in the food chain while holding the nepotism/relative card and don't forget ol' KDB continuing to porkchop all they will let him in both of the lower series. Whooopie!
 

Greg

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.
They can always establish more quality Cup TRD teams if they giveth a damn about keeping more drivers.
 
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Revman

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hmmm lets see. Hailie Deegan-Ford, going to increase the hell out of viewership in the trucks next year (left Toyota because there wasn't any way to move up because of all of the drivers in the pipeline that Tony was talking about) and she will sell some Fords to the female side of the sport. Chase Briscoe -Ford, moves up to SHR without a screw job happening and nobody losing their franchise over it. Austin Cendric -Ford, Xfinity champion, brought up by Penske who will not only race full time in Xfinity but part time in Cup for Penske next year. And Gragson, and Byron who left Toyota and who went to Chevy. Eh, that is enough talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy for me anyway.

Half the drivers you mentioned got their start with Toyota. You wouldn't be mentioning them if they hadn't.
 

Revman

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Toyota does a terrible job developing drivers for their own Cup cars, but I agree with your post for the most part.

I’m interested to see what will happen the next few years with 23XI.

I don't completely agree. I think the timeline for a driver to fully develop has been immeasurably lengthened with the elimination of testing, and even more so now that we have dumped practice and qualifying. These drivers might make it big somewhere else, but that doesn't mean that Toyota didn't have a hand in developing them. Joey Logano included.
 

Revman

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Hendrick said years ago that "driver development" didn't work. Toyota continues to prove it. Ford wins Nascar, Chevy wins Xfinity, and Chevy wins the trucks manufacturer's championship and Toyota is tied with the Hudson's

Rick Hendrick joked with David Wilson that he would let Toyota do the heavy lifting for him....plus this is the same Rick Hendrick that had to be pardoned by the Clinton administration...am I right? Your source is weak.
 

StandOnIt

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Rick Hendrick joked with David Wilson that he would let Toyota do the heavy lifting for him....plus this is the same Rick Hendrick that had to be pardoned by the Clinton administration...am I right? Your source is weak.
David who? He wasn't around when Hendric said that, Elliott was 14 or 15 years old. You've been sniffing too much bondo.
 

jaqua19

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Fact checker @StandOnIt? Posts like this just make me shake my head. Fine if that is your opinion, but to post as statement of fact is bull****. I don't have a problem with bias one way or another--I am the biggest fanboi here, but to state that Kyle, Denny, and MTJ get the best equipment and data as a statement of fact is bull****. You have no source, so I won't ask for one. Joey was shoved in that car earlier than he was supposed to be because Stewart had a **** fit about driving Toyotas and he wanted to be back in a Chevy (that didn't age well). He had his shot, but the timing was terrible. He was offered an Xfinity ride before he jumped to Penske. They were trying to give him more time. I hate what happened to Jones. I hope he is successful down the line, and WE get him back, honestly.
Stewart left Gibbs because Gibbs declined Tony wanting ownership, and he had an opportunity to turn into a championship owner. He's now a 3 time cup champion as a driver, and 2 time champion as an owner. Smoke deserves more respect that that Rev, he was a better race car driver than anyone in cup right now.

Tony is many things, even many an enemy, but an enemy of Toyota? I don't see it.

Goodyear, now that's a different story ;)

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jaqua19

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Back on topic...It is interesting to me that we are talking about who is better between two Toyota Driver Development prospects. The very system Tony Stewart says screws drivers. Why aren't we talking about drivers from Ford and Chevy? Because they are fine waiting for Toyota to do the heavy lifting....and honestly, Toyota is pretty fine with that too because in that scenario, WE get the first pick.
Damn man, where's this chest pounding/beef with Tony coming from? Haven't heard this one before.

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ChexOrWrex

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You’d have to ask someone in the lineup.

It goes around the block.
They’ll receive their 2 year evaluation soon enough.


 

Revman

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Damn man, where's this chest pounding/beef with Tony coming from? Haven't heard this one before.

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Eh, Smoke ran his mouth about the Toyota Driver Development Program sucking up all of the talent, and then throwing away what they don't want. Smoke hated it when Coach went to Toyota, and bailed. Apparently, still butt hurt over it all. I thought it was hilarious when David Wilson said on NASCAR Radio, "I don't even know Tony Stewart..."
 

Revman

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Stewart left Gibbs because Gibbs declined Tony wanting ownership, and he had an opportunity to turn into a championship owner. He's now a 3 time cup champion as a driver, and 2 time champion as an owner. Smoke deserves more respect that that Rev, he was a better race car driver than anyone in cup right now.

Tony is many things, even many an enemy, but an enemy of Toyota? I don't see it.

Goodyear, now that's a different story ;)

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JD went to Smoke's house to break the news to him. Smoke didn't want any part of it. I kind of like that, really. A driver who gave a **** about what he drove....but then Ford came knocking....$$$$$$$$$$

"Such a move would reunite Stewart with Chevrolet, which sources said was of the utmost importance to the driver, given that he's driven for General Motors for most of his career, and that GM sponsors Stewart's open wheel sprint car program."

Marty Smith, ESPN, 2008
 
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StandOnIt

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JD went to Smoke's house to break the news to him. Smoke didn't want any part of it. I kind of like that, really. A driver who gave a **** about what he drove....but then Ford came knocking....$$$$$$$$$$

"Such a move would reunite Stewart with Chevrolet, which sources said was of the utmost importance to the driver, given that he's driven for General Motors for most of his career, and that GM sponsors Stewart's open wheel sprint car program."

Marty Smith, ESPN, 2008
once upon a time
 

ChexOrWrex

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Eh, Smoke ran his mouth about the Toyota Driver Development Program sucking up all of the talent, and then throwing away what they don't want. Smoke hated it when Coach went to Toyota, and bailed. Apparently, still butt hurt over it all. I thought it was hilarious when David Wilson said on NASCAR Radio, "I don't even know Tony Stewart..."
Gonna need some extra for this level of butthurt.
1605973144009.gif
 

Taco

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The first driver to come out of the Driver Development Program is Erik Jones.

Just wondering about your thoughts now, since you had mentioned that Jones was the better driver compared to Elliott.
 
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Revman

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Just wondering about your thoughts now, since you had mentioned that Jones was the better driver compared to Elliott.

Elliott is making me eat my words. No question. I absolutely do not like that Erik got axed from JGR--not even a little, and I do believe that the best would have been yet to come....but it won't be coming with Petty....and certainly, his best would not be the equivalent of what Chase is doing. Having said that, I do believe that Erik won first, and you owe me Panera. ;)
 

jaqua19

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JD went to Smoke's house to break the news to him. Smoke didn't want any part of it. I kind of like that, really. A driver who gave a **** about what he drove....but then Ford came knocking....$$$$$$$$$$

"Such a move would reunite Stewart with Chevrolet, which sources said was of the utmost importance to the driver, given that he's driven for General Motors for most of his career, and that GM sponsors Stewart's open wheel sprint car program."

Marty Smith, ESPN, 2008
Hmm. Didn't know about this.

Anyways, I love Smoke, though. Hated him at JGR, HATED him when he took Carl Edwards title in 2011, but he came around on me.

Outside of the Toyota deal, Tony seems to have a lot of qualities you like in a driver. Pure talent, no bs, says how it is, etc.

If Tony stuck at JGR, or stayed with toyota, I bet he'd be one of, if not your favorite driver who ever ran with Toyota.

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