Who is Better?

jaqua19 said:
Hmm. Didn't know about this.

Anyways, I love Smoke, though. Hated him at JGR, HATED him when he took Carl Edwards title in 2011, but he came around on me.

Outside of the Toyota deal, Tony seems to have a lot of qualities you like in a driver. Pure talent, no bs, says how it is, etc.

If Tony stuck at JGR, or stayed with toyota, I bet he'd be one of, if not your favorite driver who ever ran with Toyota.

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The reason you haven't heard that before is because it didn't happen that way: He wanted to be released out of his contract, but Preachers bunch made him stay thru 2009. They did the same thing with Zippy a year later when he wanted gone.

Multiple sources close to the situation who spoke on condition of anonymity said Stewart told Gibbs officials that he'd like to be released from the final year of his current driving contract, which expires at the conclusion of the 2009 season.

What options did he have? Pretty strange to keep a driver who doesn't want to drive for ya.

"He definitely has some options," JGR president J.D. Gibbs said. "To me it's no different than any of the the options he's had before. The reality is he's racing here through 2009. There's no ifs, ands or buts about that one. Our stance is he's racing for us through 2009."

They jerked the rug out from under him when they switched to Toyota. Probably could have had grounds to be released because he had contracts with Chevy.

Such a move would reunite Stewart with Chevrolet, which sources said was of the utmost importance to the driver, given that he's driven for General Motors for most of his career, and that GM sponsors Stewart's open wheel sprint car program.

how long is tony stewart going to be at jgr?

Sources: Stewart talks to Gibbs about split to have own team By Marty Smith ESPN.com Two-time NASCAR Cup Series champion Tony Stewart has begun discussion with Joe Gibbs Racing officials about his future with the company, ESPN.com has learned. And that future, sources say, is questionable...
forum.gon.com
 
jaqua19 said:
If Tony stuck at JGR, or stayed with toyota, I bet he'd be one of, if not your favorite driver who ever ran with Toyota.
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No question. As soon as Toyota signed JGR, I went to my dealership, and bought 3 Smoke #20 hats. You know me well.
 
StandOnIt said:
They jerked the rug out from under him when they switched to Toyota.
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It wasn't his company. What was JGR supposed to do, pass on Toyota because of Smoke? You post that it didn't happen the way I said it did, and then go on to say that it did?
 
ChexOrWrex said:
The main Toyota team in Cup has either murdered or absorbed any of their competition. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
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I think JGR is fine with how they operate given how well they are relative to how many teams Chevy & Ford have.

Plenty of bias & flawed arguments to go around these parts. Joey Logano wouldn’t have been **** without running a lot of races 2008-2011 in the Nationwide Series AND Cup Series.
 
Revman said:
It wasn't his company. What was JGR supposed to do, pass on Toyota because of Smoke? You post that it didn't happen the way I said it did, and then go on to say that it did?
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Your fan boi clouds your judgement. What I meant by jerking the rug out from under Tony is like Hey Tony we are going with Toyota and BTW you aren't going to get out of your contract and you will have to drive one for a couple of years because your under contract. So yeah your right on one point. Preacher thought he would get a better deal so he went with Toyota. But Tony's way of looking at it is a different story. Locked in driving for a manufacturer for 2 years he didn't have any affiliations with and his sprint car racing program was with Chevy. Tony eclipsed the preachers bunch shortly after he was able to leave by partnering with Haas with his own Cup team. He owns either out right or partnered with three race tracks, and recently he started a successful sprint car series. Surely you should know that side of it. If I were the yota bunch, I would listen to what Tony had to say about their "training " program. He has been more successful than they have.
 
StandOnIt said:
Your fan boi clouds your judgement. What I meant by jerking the rug out from under Tony is like Hey Tony we are going with Toyota and BTW you aren't going to get out of your contract and you will have to drive one for a couple of years because your under contract. So yeah your right on one point. Preacher thought he would get a better deal so he went with Toyota. But Tony's way of looking at it is a different story. Locked in driving for a manufacturer for 2 years he didn't have any affiliations with and his sprint car racing program was with Chevy. Tony eclipsed the preachers bunch shortly after he was able to leave by partnering with Haas with his own Cup team. He owns either out right or partnered with three race tracks, and recently he started a successful sprint car series. Surely you should know that side of it. If I were the yota bunch, I would listen to what Tony had to say about their "training " program. He has been more successful than they have.
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Yeah, calling BS again on your stuff. First, those Chevy ties weren't as deep as you suggest given that he jumped ship to Ford. So, that's crap. Second, why do you think JGR was holding Tony to his contract? Yeah, spare me the preacher is the devil crap. They were holding him to the contract because Joey was nowhere near ready. They needed time....and as it turns out, they needed even more....although your (and Tony's) Toyotas chews drivers up crap is just that--crap. I have said repeatedly, and you keep validating that Tony didn't want to be with Toyota....but should JGR have stayed with Chevy to lick the Hendrick plate simply because Tony would be butthurt? That doesn't make any sense every day of the week. Tony's bull**** about the Driver Development Program is just Tony running his mouth like he does with Goodyear. Without Toyota, Tony wouldn't even know about drivers getting screwed out of a career because he would have never heard of them. Toyota is giving drivers a shot. Common sense. If you would just acknowledge that you hate Toyota, then we could look at your posts for what they are...biased hater stuff. That is fun, and produces great banter, but when framed as statements of fact, it is pretty pathetic....and riles the Nuggie Crew. Hell, I have openly admitted that I am the biggest fan boi here....but you just can't get there for some reason.
 
StandOnIt said:
The reason you haven't heard that before is because it didn't happen that way: He wanted to be released out of his contract, but Preachers bunch made him stay thru 2009. They did the same thing with Zippy a year later when he wanted gone.

Multiple sources close to the situation who spoke on condition of anonymity said Stewart told Gibbs officials that he'd like to be released from the final year of his current driving contract, which expires at the conclusion of the 2009 season.

What options did he have? Pretty strange to keep a driver who doesn't want to drive for ya.

"He definitely has some options," JGR president J.D. Gibbs said. "To me it's no different than any of the the options he's had before. The reality is he's racing here through 2009. There's no ifs, ands or buts about that one. Our stance is he's racing for us through 2009."

They jerked the rug out from under him when they switched to Toyota. Probably could have had grounds to be released because he had contracts with Chevy.

Such a move would reunite Stewart with Chevrolet, which sources said was of the utmost importance to the driver, given that he's driven for General Motors for most of his career, and that GM sponsors Stewart's open wheel sprint car program.

how long is tony stewart going to be at jgr?

Sources: Stewart talks to Gibbs about split to have own team By Marty Smith ESPN.com Two-time NASCAR Cup Series champion Tony Stewart has begun discussion with Joe Gibbs Racing officials about his future with the company, ESPN.com has learned. And that future, sources say, is questionable...
forum.gon.com
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The absolute worst person/persons to deal with in Business is a Bible Thumper!
 
Yeah ... poor Tony.

Interestingly, the new Ford 410 powers Stewart’s sprint car teams.
 
StandOnIt said:
“Hailie’s Holiday Haul” was made possible by the new 2021 F-150 that she drove from Ford Performance headquarters in Dearborn to Detroit this morning.
“We put this new 2021 F-150 to the test today, I can tell you that,” Deegan said. “It is so cool to drive through Detroit and get to see the community with this huge haul of turkeys in the back, knowing that we are helping so many people today. I have never been prouder to be a part of the Ford family.”

Deegan, who will pilot a Ford F-150 in the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series next season, was touched by the response to her visit to the motor city.

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<Quotes himself>
 
Revman said:
Yeah, calling BS again on your stuff. First, those Chevy ties weren't as deep as you suggest given that he jumped ship to Ford. So, that's crap. Second, why do you think JGR was holding Tony to his contract? Yeah, spare me the preacher is the devil crap. They were holding him to the contract because Joey was nowhere near ready. They needed time....and as it turns out, they needed even more....although your (and Tony's) Toyotas chews drivers up crap is just that--crap. I have said repeatedly, and you keep validating that Tony didn't want to be with Toyota....but should JGR have stayed with Chevy to lick the Hendrick plate simply because Tony would be butthurt? That doesn't make any sense every day of the week. Tony's bull**** about the Driver Development Program is just Tony running his mouth like he does with Goodyear. Without Toyota, Tony wouldn't even know about drivers getting screwed out of a career because he would have never heard of them. Toyota is giving drivers a shot. Common sense. If you would just acknowledge that you hate Toyota, then we could look at your posts for what they are...biased hater stuff. That is fun, and produces great banter, but when framed as statements of fact, it is pretty pathetic....and riles the Nuggie Crew. Hell, I have openly admitted that I am the biggest fan boi here....but you just can't get there for some reason.
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pretty much figures
aunty dive said:
Yeah ... poor Tony.

Interestingly, the new Ford 410 powers Stewart’s sprint car teams.
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not really, Stewart made the choice to switch to Ford, he wasn't in the position to have the rug jerked out from under him and forced to stay where he didn't want to be.
 
When it comes down to it, it's all about business. Joe did what he thought what was best for his investment and Tony did what he thought was best for himself. In the end, Tony got another offer that suited him more than what GM was giving him so he And His Partner decided to do what was best for them at the time.
It is all Business and is what business men do. That doesn't make Joe or Tony the bad guy. Fans should be happy that they gamble with there own fortunes to bring you Racing. Many others like Rudd and the Waltrip's didn't fair so well as did others who gambled and lost.
 
Team Penske said:
When it comes down to it, it's all about business. Joe did what he thought what was best for his investment and Tony did what he thought was best for himself. In the end, Tony got another offer that suited him more than what GM was giving him so he And His Partner decided to do what was best for them at the time.
It is all Business and is what business men do. That doesn't make Joe or Tony the bad guy. Fans should be happy that they gamble with there own fortunes to bring you Racing. Many others like Rudd and the Waltrip's didn't fair so well as did others who gambled and lost.
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If you have a chance to listen to DW on Jr's podcast when he talks about his time with DiGuard. Yeah there are businessman, and there are jackasses. Took him 300,000 to get out from under that mess and 25 thousand more for good measure.
 
StandOnIt said:
If you have a chance to listen to DW on Jr's podcast when he talks about his time with DiGuard. Yeah there are businessman, and there are jackasses. Took him 300,000 to get out from under that mess and 25 thousand more for good measure.
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Just shows the DW was a better driver than he was an owner. I have run a few electrical apprentices through my business and had other contractors that tried to poach my employees, some succeed. The worse are the ones who thought I made a lot of money and so they tried stealing my customers to start their own business. Not many succeeded simply because they were greedy and were not willing to go the distance on service. I don't know DW's thoughts or reasons but he got taught a lesson. I heard he can thank DE for saving his ass before he got a good dig on the TV
 
Team Penske said:
Just shows the DW was a better driver than he was an owner. I have run a few electrical apprentices through my business and had other contractors that tried to poach my employees, some succeed. The worse are the ones who thought I made a lot of money and so they tried stealing my customers to start their own business. Not many succeeded simply because they were greedy and were not willing to go the distance on service. I don't know DW's thoughts or reasons but he got taught a lesson. I heard he can thank DE for saving his ass before he got a good dig on the TV
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never mind :biggrin:
 
Bell seems to be an amazing talent but what made other former open wheelers great (#20 and #24) were that they knew how to be aggressive. It’s what’s held Larson back as well, you have to be a great defensive driver in NASCAR to be a champion. Guys like Bell and Larson seem to get roughed up too easy
 
Going strictly off of potential I would go with Bell.
Becoming a threat to win multiple races per season and to routinely contend for the championship is elite stuff and few will succeed. It is an almost unfair expectation while also being an expected standard when you are in a JGR car.
So I would go with Bell since Jones already has had a couple of seasons in a JGR car.
 
Greg said:
Going strictly off of potential I would go with Bell.
Becoming a threat to win multiple races per season and to routinely contend for the championship is elite stuff and few will succeed. It is an almost unfair expectation while also being an expected standard when you are in a JGR car.
So I would go with Bell since Jones already has had a couple of seasons in a JGR car.
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Jones has won some Cup races in the #20. Your assuming Bell will do better even though he hasn't shown he can even compete at cup level.
 
Yeah I think Bell learned a lot his rookie year I think he will do better than Jones, but he doesn't have to work very hard to do that either. But if he doesn't, that is the third driver in a row in the 20.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, calling BS again on your stuff. First, those Chevy ties weren't as deep as you suggest given that he jumped ship to Ford(went from an affiliate to a primary, that's the same song you sing with the preacher). So, that's crap. Second, why do you think JGR was holding Tony to his contract? (desperation) Yeah, spare me the preacher is the devil crap. They were holding him to the contract because Joey was nowhere near ready. They needed time....and as it turns out, they needed even more....although your (and Tony's) Toyotas chews drivers up crap is just that--crap. I have said repeatedly, and you keep validating that Tony didn't want to be with Toyota....but should JGR have stayed with Chevy to lick the Hendrick plate simply because Tony would be butthurt? That doesn't make any sense every day of the week. Tony's bull**** about the Driver Development Program is just Tony running his mouth like he does with Goodyear. Without Toyota, Tony wouldn't even know about drivers getting screwed out of a career because he would have never heard of them. Toyota is giving drivers a shot. Common sense. (hmm if you can't see the turnover so be it)If you would just acknowledge that you hate Toyota,(has blinders over his eyes and cotton wool stuffed in his ears) then we could look at your posts for what they are...biased hater stuff. That is fun, and produces great banter, but when framed as statements of fact, ( I frame the statements all the time with quotes from sources, I would suggest you do the same) it is pretty pathetic....and riles the Nuggie Crew. Hell, I have openly admitted that I am the biggest fan boi here....but you just can't get there for some reason. Good luck to you next year and keep the Bondo flowing :biggrin:
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as the Toyota turns.
 
JJ_14 said:
I think Bell will be a title contender for many years to come. Jones couldn't even make the playoffs in a Gibbs car this year.
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and you know this is Jones fault because ???? A lot of time the 4th car of a team doesn't do as well as the other 3. Why did Harvick run so well and the other cars didn't?
 
StandOnIt said:
as the Toyota turns.
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The same song I sing with the preacher, and now you sing it with Smoke? Okay. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Desperate? Hell yes. Look how it turned out. Props on the "as the Toyota turns." That's funny. Consider it "Liked" without my finger slipping off of the keyboard from Nuggie grease.
 
JJ_14 said:
I think Bell will be a title contender for many years to come. Jones couldn't even make the playoffs in a Gibbs car this year.
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Well, one of the experts here says it's because Kyle, Denny, and MTJ get the good equipment and data.
 
JJ_14 said:
I think Bell will be a title contender for many years to come. Jones couldn't even make the playoffs in a Gibbs car this year.
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Dunno. We will see. He has the best crew chief so no excuses there...but then again, I love Ratcliff.
 
When Toyota really wants to keep someone, they keep someone. They created the 77 car just to keep Erik Jones. So next time anyone makes a laundry list of all the people who have "left" Toyota, they should ask themselves two questions: was it their choice to leave, and why didn't Toyota do what it took to keep them? Hailie Deegan being a good example.
 
Allenbaba said:
When Toyota really wants to keep someone, they keep someone. They created the 77 car just to keep Erik Jones. So next time anyone makes a laundry list of all the people who have "left" Toyota, they should ask themselves two questions: was it their choice to leave, and why didn't Toyota do what it took to keep them? Hailie Deegan being a good example.
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In your opinion who really calls the shots, Toyota or Gibbs??
 
JJ_14 said:
I think Bell will be a title contender for many years to come. Jones couldn't even make the playoffs in a Gibbs car this year.
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Jason Ratcliff > Chris Gayle

Ratcliff stepping down from Cup to Xfinity had been the best thing for Bell. Chris Gayle was honestly okay, but not nearly as good as Ratcliff had been through his CC career.

Bell should fare better than Jones, but I think a CC change should have been done before letting Jones leave. That's just my take on that situation.
 
Kiante said:
Jason Ratcliff > Chris Gayle

Ratcliff stepping down from Cup to Xfinity had been the best thing for Bell. Chris Gayle was honestly okay, but not nearly as good as Ratcliff had been through his CC career.

Bell should fare better than Jones, but I think a CC change should have been done before letting Jones leave. That's just my take on that situation.
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I agree.
 
Team Penske said:
Just shows the DW was a better driver than he was an owner. I have run a few electrical apprentices through my business and had other contractors that tried to poach my employees, some succeed. The worse are the ones who thought I made a lot of money and so they tried stealing my customers to start their own business. Not many succeeded simply because they were greedy and were not willing to go the distance on service. I don't know DW's thoughts or reasons but he got taught a lesson. I heard he can thank DE for saving his ass before he got a good dig on the TV
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Seems like a lot of those guys who caught the owner/driver bug back in the 90’s had some success with their teams the first couple of years but had the bottom fall out after that, DW’s was no exception. Those teams were pretty much all done for by the end of the decade.

As for Tony’s deal, I wouldn’t lump it in the same category as those teams. Tony’s was a co-ownership with Gene Haas with a lot of Hendrick support as well. When Tony won his 2011 title and the announcers were like “first owner/driver to win a championship since Alan Kulwicki!” I remember I was like, “yeah, but not really”.
 
ToyYoda said:
Seems like a lot of those guys who caught the owner/driver bug back in the 90’s had some success with their teams the first couple of years but had the bottom fall out after that, DW’s was no exception. Those teams were pretty much all done for by the end of the decade.

As for Tony’s deal, I wouldn’t lump it in the same category as those teams. Tony’s was a co-ownership with Gene Haas with a lot of Hendrick support as well. When Tony won his 2011 title and the announcers were like “first owner/driver to win a championship since Alan Kulwicki!” I remember I was like, “yeah, but not really”.
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Yeah good drivers were making tons of money back then and some thought it would be a cake walk to own a team. DW's wife and fate/divine intervention saved him from himself when he had his team and was losing his butt. Good story he told about that on Jr's podcast.
 
StandOnIt said:
Ever wonder about that with any of the other teams in the series? There's your answer
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Yeah, and Toyota has always been clear about a different approach. Always.....and Hendrick calls the shots at GM.
 
ToyYoda said:
When Tony won his 2011 title and the announcers were like “first owner/driver to win a championship since Alan Kulwicki!” I remember I was like, “yeah, but not really”.
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And your quite right, most drivers were owner driver at some point. Just remember these are announcers, not doers.
 
StandOnIt said:
Ever wonder about that with any of the other teams in the series? There's your answer
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I am going to say some team owners were the boss for the simple reason they could switch when ever they felt like it. Dale Earnhardt in my opinion was always in charge both as a driver and as an owner.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
Bell seems to be an amazing talent but what made other former open wheelers great (#20 and #24) were that they knew how to be aggressive. It’s what’s held Larson back as well, you have to be a great defensive driver in NASCAR to be a champion. Guys like Bell and Larson seem to get roughed up too easy
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Open wheelers? Bell? Since when?

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StandOnIt said:
Yeah I think Bell learned a lot his rookie year I think he will do better than Jones, but he doesn't have to work very hard to do that either. But if he doesn't, that is the third driver in a row in the 20.
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I'm getting that hunch too. I was high on him, then a bit low after getting beat out by Reddick.

I do think he over performed this year, and for a young rookie driver with minimum cup experience, that says a lot.

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