Who is the NASCAR GOAT?

aunty dive

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Well I realistically know all those things couldn’t be taken away I was highlight my point of the playoffs being a gimmick with hyperbole of only running 16 cars. That’s not realistic. I enjoy the simplicity of run what ya bring...the reality of which isn’t that simple
Darlington this weekend. Very exciting ... 1 race.

It is my fervent wish that the talking heads doing their best to keep me informed do not include any references to points standing shuffles that they seem to think occur at various points during the race.

It’s as if we need to have that digitized for all time in case, you know, on lap 23 Earth was struck by an asteroid the size of Manhattan Island and NASCAR had to make the call.

Future generations of Autonomous Electric Racecar fans on Mars will want to know who the 2019 NASCAR Champion was. Can you blame them?
 

Snappy D

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Darlington this weekend. Very exciting ... 1 race.

It is my fervent wish that the talking heads doing their best to keep me informed do not include any references to points standing shuffles that they seem to think occur at various points during the race.

It’s as if we need to have that digitized for all time in case, you know, on lap 23 Earth was struck by an asteroid the size of Manhattan Island and NASCAR had to make the call.

Future generations of Autonomous Electric Racecar fans on Mars will want to know who the 2019 NASCAR Champion was. Can you blame them?
The Southern 500 is my absolute favorite race but I’m afraid your going to get a by the lap points update
 

LJ7201

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The Latford System had ONE flaw. Everything we have had since then has MULTIPLE flaws. The Latford System could have been fixed over a long lunch break. Always remember my NASCAR Action Flow Chart. 1) Ignore an issue. 2) Deny there is an issue. 3) Acknowledge that some people think there is an issue, but take no action. 4) Hint that some kind of action MIGHT be coming. 5) Over-react in a HUGE way to the issue. 6) When the action doesn't get the desired results, double down on it with an even bigger over-reaction.
It's the impact of the flaw not the amount of them. 2nd place that leads the most laps and first place both earning 180 points is atrocious, that one flaw breaks the entire system.
 

Formerjackman

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It's the impact of the flaw not the amount of them. 2nd place that leads the most laps and first place both earning 180 points is atrocious, that one flaw breaks the entire system.
Yes, but an easily fixable one. As I said, I could fix it over a lunch break. The mess we have now would be almost impossible to unravel without NASCAR having to admit a mistake, something they are loathe to do. See my flow chart. Never admit a mistake, double down on it. If and when people finally rebel against the current format, NASCAR will devise an even goofier format, and then claim the fans were clamoring for it. Just like the loose tire rule. Never admit that the last plan was stupid, ill conceived and unworkable. Just make a change and claim that the last rule was what was needed at that time (totally untrue).
 

Snappy D

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Yes, but an easily fixable one. As I said, I could fix it over a lunch break. The mess we have now would be almost impossible to unravel without NASCAR having to admit a mistake, something they are loathe to do. See my flow chart. Never admit a mistake, double down on it. If and when people finally rebel against the current format, NASCAR will devise an even goofier format, and then claim the fans were clamoring for it. Just like the loose tire rule. Never admit that the last plan was stupid, ill conceived and unworkable. Just make a change and claim that the last rule was what was needed at that time (totally untrue).
I could only shudder to think what the powers that be and the networks will come up with next.
 

LJ7201

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Yes, but an easily fixable one. As I said, I could fix it over a lunch break. The mess we have now would be almost impossible to unravel without NASCAR having to admit a mistake, something they are loathe to do. See my flow chart. Never admit a mistake, double down on it. If and when people finally rebel against the current format, NASCAR will devise an even goofier format, and then claim the fans were clamoring for it. Just like the loose tire rule. Never admit that the last plan was stupid, ill conceived and unworkable. Just make a change and claim that the last rule was what was needed at that time (totally untrue).
I agree that it could've been fixed over a lunch break, but that lunch break didn't occur until 2004, which was the same one that created the chase. That's besides my point though - what I'm trying to say is that when trying to rank drivers all title formats have been severely messed up (which isn't ONLY due to incompetence imo, it's very difficult to fairly crown a champion with the nature of the sport). 2003 and before is no better than any era of the chase or the playoffs. I have no issue with de-emphasizing titles in the GOAT discussion, but holding pre 2004 titles in a higher regard is ridiculous. I think some titles are worth more than others due to dominance (or lack thereof), and judging them based off how well the driver performed is better than judging by the point system it was won under. For example Jimmie's 2007 > Kenseth's 2003, Truex's 2017 > Jimmie's 2016, Gordon's 1998 > Kurt's 2004.
 

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The pre 2004 Latford system sucks. If you're more impressed by Kenseth's 1 win championship than dominant titles won in the chase era then idk what to tell you. Neither the chase nor the playoffs are perfect, but I'd take either over what was in place for 2003 and prior. Finishing 2nd but leading the most laps earning the same amount of points as winning a race is inexcusable. 2004 and later 2007 actually bumped up the reward for winning to something reasonable.
Define your dominant titles won in the Chase era.
 

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It's the impact of the flaw not the amount of them. 2nd place that leads the most laps and first place both earning 180 points is atrocious, that one flaw breaks the entire system.
The winner at Bristol was Denny Hamlin. He received 40 points.

2nd, Matt DiBenedetto. Received 41.
3rd, Brad Keselowski. Received 40.
4th, Kyle Busch. Received 40.
5th, Chase Elliott. Received 46.
6th, Kyle Larson. Received 41.
9th, Kurt Busch. Received 40.

Under the current points system, you could in theory finish 17th and receive the same number of points as the race winner.
 

StandOnIt

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The winner at Bristol was Denny Hamlin. He received 40 points.

2nd, Matt DiBenedetto. Received 41.
3rd, Brad Keselowski. Received 40.
4th, Kyle Busch. Received 40.
5th, Chase Elliott. Received 46.
6th, Kyle Larson. Received 41.
9th, Kurt Busch. Received 40.

Under the current points system, you could in theory finish 17th and receive the same number of points as the race winner.
yep it does a good job of adding different strategies for an added dimensions to the show, and it gives the haters yet another thing to go off on
 

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There were all the opportunities you mentioned above in the old points system. I’ve seen your posts on this before but never seen your preference do you yourself like the way the Champion is crowned?
I personally understand the complaints, I personally like the original chase format, but everyone is using the same rules.

I would like to see more reward for the regular season though.

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Formerjackman

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yep it does a good job of adding different strategies for an added dimensions to the show, and it gives the haters yet another thing to go off on
Well call it what you want, but I don't care if a guy leads 499 laps and finishes second, he shouldn't be able to get within about 20 points of the actual race winner. If the winners and the top 5 and top 10 guys were properly rewarded, the cream would rise to the top without offering all of the other gimmicks. The system we have exists for ONE reason. To keep as many players in the game as long as possible so the fans who stop watching when their driver is out of championship contention will stick around. The same reason the NBA and the NHL allows 2/3rds of the teams to make the playoffs.
 

StandOnIt

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Well call it what you want, but I don't care if a guy leads 499 laps and finishes second, he shouldn't be able to get within about 20 points of the actual race winner. If the winners and the top 5 and top 10 guys were properly rewarded, the cream would rise to the top without offering all of the other gimmicks. The system we have exists for ONE reason. To keep as many players in the game as long as possible so the fans who stop watching when their driver is out of championship contention will stick around. The same reason the NBA and the NHL allows 2/3rds of the teams to make the playoffs.
and I don't care what you care. It's the point system they have. All point systems have their flaws. The ratings trump all of that B.S. if you haven't figured that out, and love it or leave it, that is the way it is and what it has produced.
 

Formerjackman

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Well if ratings are the determining factor, then we should be going back to 2004 right away. I also don't think a points system has to have flaws. It's just that people don't try very hard or have agendas that are more about pushing a narrative than about sporting rules and trying to crown the MOST deserving team.
 

Formerjackman

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There isn't a perfect points system or everybody would be using it. As it is everybody uses a different system. About like the GOAT business, everybody has an opinion.
I think it's telling that nobody else is buying into NASCAR's convoluted mess. The Indycar points system wouldn't be a bad place to start. It puts a pretty big premium on winning and top fives. 8th place pays half the points of a win.
 

jaqua19

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Well call it what you want, but I don't care if a guy leads 499 laps and finishes second, he shouldn't be able to get within about 20 points of the actual race winner. If the winners and the top 5 and top 10 guys were properly rewarded, the cream would rise to the top without offering all of the other gimmicks. The system we have exists for ONE reason. To keep as many players in the game as long as possible so the fans who stop watching when their driver is out of championship contention will stick around. The same reason the NBA and the NHL allows 2/3rds of the teams to make the playoffs.
I think this reflects the modern short attention span. Old school fans like a year long system.
Kids these days will never grow-up to appreciate a year long points system. Nor do they care.

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StandOnIt

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I think it's telling that nobody else is buying into NASCAR's convoluted mess. The Indycar points system wouldn't be a bad place to start. It puts a pretty big premium on winning and top fives. 8th place pays half the points of a win.
Your opinion again. You don't have a clue who has a problem or not with the points system that's more nonsense about nobody else likes the current system. On the surface it prevents a runaway driver from winning the title in the middle of the season like what happens to Formula 1 on a regular basis, and recently IndyCar has tried to wake up their points system by adding double points for some races at the end of the season. Nascar's system on a frequent basis emphasizes racing for good point positions in the stages if they are available, or setting up for the next stage or the ending stage if that works better depending on where the driver sits in the points. It discourages riding in the notch for most of the race, if you want points you have to race for them because there are one's out there that need them and are going to race hard to get them. It adds who is going to show up for the win in the ending stage. Many races this year I didn't know who the hell was going to win the race until it happened. It's working.
 

Formerjackman

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Well it's pretty clear that a large portion of the fans don't like the playoff formats, and in the end, that's what counts. As to what the competitors think, as long as NASCAR doesn't allow dissent, we'll never know. As long as we're talking opinions, I've been watching this stuff for 40 years, and I don't EVER recall thinking to myself that guys weren't racing very hard. In fact, for about the last 20 years all I have heard from people actually in the sport is that nowadays EVERY lap gets run like a qualifying lap. If it weren't for stage caution and the goofy pit strategy that ensues, I don't think you would notice a single thing about the race being different, regardless of how many stage points they pay.
 

StandOnIt

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Well it's pretty clear that a large portion of the fans don't like the playoff formats, and in the end, that's what counts. As to what the competitors think, as long as NASCAR doesn't allow dissent, we'll never know. As long as we're talking opinions, I've been watching this stuff for 40 years, and I don't EVER recall thinking to myself that guys weren't racing very hard. In fact, for about the last 20 years all I have heard from people actually in the sport is that nowadays EVERY lap gets run like a qualifying lap. If it weren't for stage caution and the goofy pit strategy that ensues, I don't think you would notice a single thing about the race being different, regardless of how many stage points they pay.
it isn't what counts. What count's are ratings, you forgot that again? That proves that something is working. Myself I have watched them wheel hold for years waiting to race in the last portion of the race. Why in the heck do you think one of the reasons for the stages are so that doesn't happen. Even the announcers have brought that up about how hard they are racing a number of times, are you not listening to the broadcasts.
 

Formerjackman

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Where are the ratings? A FRACTION of what they were before we had any of this silliness. I think the stages are just another NASCAR manufactured hype tactic instead of letting the event speak for itself, AND a way to get in some commercials during cautions instead of green flag laps, which is a noble reason, but not worth mucking up the race to do it. Also, why should I care what the announcers say about it, they get PAID to make EVERYTHING sound more exciting and more interesting than it really is.
 

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Well it's pretty clear that a large portion of the fans don't like the playoff formats, and in the end, that's what counts. As to what the competitors think, as long as NASCAR doesn't allow dissent, we'll never know. As long as we're talking opinions, I've been watching this stuff for 40 years, and I don't EVER recall thinking to myself that guys weren't racing very hard. In fact, for about the last 20 years all I have heard from people actually in the sport is that nowadays EVERY lap gets run like a qualifying lap. If it weren't for stage caution and the goofy pit strategy that ensues, I don't think you would notice a single thing about the race being different, regardless of how many stage points they pay.
I think that the people who don't like the playoffs are the minority, as much as you would hate that. I'm not saying that people who like the playoffs are the majority. I think the majority of fans simply just accept it. Like it or not, the people whining about the current playoff system are the fans NASCAR is going to leave behind..and they have no issue with it.

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jaqua19

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Where are the ratings? A FRACTION of what they were before we had any of this silliness. I think the stages are just another NASCAR manufactured hype tactic instead of letting the event speak for itself, AND a way to get in some commercials during cautions instead of green flag laps, which is a noble reason, but not worth mucking up the race to do it. Also, why should I care what the announcers say about it, they get PAID to make EVERYTHING sound more exciting and more interesting than it really is.
Out of all the reasons NASCAR made the stages, I would bet commercial breaks are not them. I believe they may them for a combination of compensating for a lack of comers and goers, and to reward performance.

I'm iffy about stages, but I LOVE the idea of rewarding performance.

They should give 5 extra points to the driver with the fastest lap of a race.

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StandOnIt

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yep they should do it your way.
Out of all the reasons NASCAR made the stages, I would bet commercial breaks are not them. I believe they may them for a combination of compensating for a lack of comers and goers, and to reward performance.

I'm iffy about stages, but I LOVE the idea of rewarding performance.

They should give 5 extra points to the driver with the fastest lap of a race.

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I think commercial breaks are part of it because the questionable cautions have stopped for the most part. They still throw cautions that not everybody agrees with, but it isn't like before when you had fans saying time for a caution and there would be one shortly. They stopped a lot of wheel holding and the teams pretty much knew when cautions would fall. It was predictable. So now you have the predictable stage cautions, but you also have the unpredictable ones now that fall and screw up or help the teams. Lots more gambling going on
 

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I think that the people who don't like the playoffs are the minority, as much as you would hate that. I'm not saying that people who like the playoffs are the majority. I think the majority of fans simply just accept it. Like it or not, the people whining about the current playoff system are the fans NASCAR is going to leave behind..and they have no issue with it.

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Does this mean more grandstand seats will be removed?
 

BobbyFord

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FWIW, California Speedway (ISC) has been blowing up my phone and my email for months. Urging me to renew at once or “lose my benefits.” I don’t answer my phone when I see a call coming from the 909. I haven’t responded to any emails.
Erin McDonald is certainly earning her pay.
 

Snappy D

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FWIW, California Speedway (ISC) has been blowing up my phone and my email for months. Urging me to renew at once or “lose my benefits.” I don’t answer my phone when I see a call coming from the 909. I haven’t responded to any emails.
Erin McDonald is certainly earning her pay.
Bristol sent me an email to renew my tickets for next year...on my way home the next day. I haven’t been to a Chicagoland race since 2017 and I get emails every other day from them. My father when we had the Founder’s Pass tickets would only get one call before that years due date to renew once that date approached it was adidos. And I know that because I took over the tickets once he got disinterested, I opted to buy day of or month before Cup if I knew I could go
 

Snappy D

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I personally understand the complaints, I personally like the original chase format, but everyone is using the same rules.

I would like to see more reward for the regular season though.

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Id like to see how this format would be without the Homestead Miami Bowl. Still have the elimination/bracket/points resets... but can you do maybe the last 3 races as the last round that crowns a champion...oh and those last 3 tracks rotate each year. Road Course,Short Track, Super Speedway or Intermediate 1.5 mile. The Regular season champion would also get a guaranteed berth in the Final Round. That’d have my interest for sure.
 
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Formerjackman

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I think that the people who don't like the playoffs are the minority, as much as you would hate that. I'm not saying that people who like the playoffs are the majority. I think the majority of fans simply just accept it. Like it or not, the people whining about the current playoff system are the fans NASCAR is going to leave behind..and they have no issue with it.

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All I can speak for is myself and all the people I know personally that USED to follow NASCAR religiously. When I talk to "former NASCAR fans", the Chase is always one of the FIRST things they mention. I have despised it since day one, but I have also learned to accept it, the same way I do tax increases. I can't do much of anything about it, but I also don't have to like it.
 

Formerjackman

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Out of all the reasons NASCAR made the stages, I would bet commercial breaks are not them. I believe they may them for a combination of compensating for a lack of comers and goers, and to reward performance.

I'm iffy about stages, but I LOVE the idea of rewarding performance.

They should give 5 extra points to the driver with the fastest lap of a race.

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You don't have to throw a caution to hand out bonus points, but they do. This was about getting a yellow flag commercial break, and another chance at a restart, which when this started was one one of the few times anything exciting would happen.
 

Formerjackman

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Bristol sent me an email to renew my tickets for next year...on my way home the next day. I haven’t been to a Chicagoland race since 2017 and I get emails every other day from them. My father when we had the Founder’s Pass tickets would only get one call before that years due date to renew once that date approached it was adidos. And I know that because I took over the tickets once he got disinterested, I opted to buy day of or month before Cup if I knew I could go
I remember all of the years my Brickyard ticket renewal was supposed to be in the week after the race, or they would not promise you the same seats. The last several years, I have ordered them three weeks before the race, and when they call, they ask me how many I want. We have a row to ourselves.
 

Snappy D

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I remember all of the years my Brickyard ticket renewal was supposed to be in the week after the race, or they would not promise you the same seats. The last several years, I have ordered them three weeks before the race, and when they call, they ask me how many I want. We have a row to ourselves.
Are you going this year??
 

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I think that the people who don't like the playoffs are the minority, as much as you would hate that. I'm not saying that people who like the playoffs are the majority. I think the majority of fans simply just accept it. Like it or not, the people whining about the current playoff system are the fans NASCAR is going to leave behind..and they have no issue with it.

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The people who don't like the playoffs may be a majority of the fans left, but if you could poll every fan from 2003, it would be hugely scaled against.
 

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All I can speak for is myself and all the people I know personally that USED to follow NASCAR religiously. When I talk to "former NASCAR fans", the Chase is always one of the FIRST things they mention. I have despised it since day one, but I have also learned to accept it, the same way I do tax increases. I can't do much of anything about it, but I also don't have to like it.
You don’t have the choice to pay less taxes but you have the choice to watch less NASCAR.
 

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Id like to see how this format would be without the Homestead Miami Bowl. Still have the elimination/bracket/points resets... but can you do maybe the last 3 races as the last round that crowns a champion...oh and those last 3 tracks rotate each year. Road Course,Short Track, Super Speedway or Intermediate 1.5 mile. The Regular season champion would also get a guaranteed berth in the Final Round. That’d have my interest for sure.
Agreed. I don't mind the idea of playoff points, I just get tired of the Homestead/Phoenix Bowl finale.
 

jaqua19

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Does this mean more grandstand seats will be removed?
When the older generation of fans move on, and people who are too young to appreciate the year championship are the main fans...it won't matter...because that's you consumer. Like it or not, they need to do what they think will bring fans and attract young fans. A year long point system will 100% watch the fanbase dwindle even more in the next 30 years. Kids these days do not have the temperament to care about that. It's all about reaction. This is an issue that cannot be overlooked. Changing the points system to accommodate a particular old school generation of fans will do nothing for the sport in 20 years. kids think Nascar racing is boring in general anyway. Dragging out a season where you know who the champ is with 4 races to go will NOT be interesting to 2035's 20 year old fans. That's where they are looking. This is a point that can absolutely not be ignored.

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jaqua19

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All I can speak for is myself and all the people I know personally that USED to follow NASCAR religiously. When I talk to "former NASCAR fans", the Chase is always one of the FIRST things they mention. I have despised it since day one, but I have also learned to accept it, the same way I do tax increases. I can't do much of anything about it, but I also don't have to like it.
Sure. But like I said, NASCAR doesn't care about fans who are gone. They care about the fans they will have in 10-20 years, I would guess. A year long point system is not the way to make this sport popular with that demographic. As much as some of us don't like the playoffs, the playoffs are what is going to attract and keep fans under 20 years old, and THAT is who NASCAR cares about.

Be water. Go with the flow. Revman said it best, it's racing.

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BobbyFord

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When the older generation of fans move on, and people who are too young to appreciate the year championship are the main fans...it won't matter...because that's you consumer. Like it or not, they need to do what they think will bring fans and attract young fans. A year long point system will 100% watch the fanbase dwindle even more in the next 30 years. Kids these days do not have the temperament to care about that. It's all about reaction. This is an issue that cannot be overlooked. Changing the points system to accommodate a particular old school generation of fans will do nothing for the sport in 20 years. kids think Nascar racing is boring in general anyway. Dragging out a season where you know who the champ is with 4 races to go will NOT be interesting to 2035's 20 year old fans. That's where they are looking. This is a point that can absolutely not be ignored.

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20 year old fans? Surely, you jest.
 

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The pre 2004 Latford system sucks. If you're more impressed by Kenseth's 1 win championship than dominant titles won in the chase era then idk what to tell you. Neither the chase nor the playoffs are perfect, but I'd take either over what was in place for 2003 and prior. Finishing 2nd but leading the most laps earning the same amount of points as winning a race is inexcusable. 2004 and later 2007 actually bumped up the reward for winning to something reasonable.
I mean the reason he won that year was his impressive numbers over all....

Yeah he had 1 win, but he had 11 top 5s and 25 top 10s. He finished in the top 10, 69.4% of the races.

Now, let's look at 2nd place Jimmie Johnson.

3 wins, that's nice but where he has 3 more top 5s...he also has 5 less top 10s.

Dale Jr in 3rd had 2 wins, 13 top 5s and 21 top 10s. So two more top 5s, and 4 less top 10s

Do I need to keep going down every single person in points?

Matt had the best year that year, as far as what he did on a week to week basis.

As far as the part about getting the same for 2nd as 1st if you lead the most laps....as pointed out since then, but I'll point out as well. It's now possible to actually get more than the winner. It just happened in the last Cup race.

What they SHOULD have done instead of this Chase, Is just bump the winners points up enough where 2nd place can't get the same amount no matter what and called it a day. Maybe give the winner......20 or 30 more points than the max 2nd could get. Heck maybe more than that, maybe less. But you didn't need a playoff to fix that problem, when that problem is worse now.
 
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