Would you be interested in doing a greatest Cup driver of all-time poll?

[robbybee]

And there is no way to know what Adam Petty might have been capable of...

But if we are gonna do this, we have to decide based upon results, not speculation.

 

[FenderBumper]

Both Alan Kulwicki and Davey Allison where just coming into ther own when we lost them you can pull stats out of your ass all day long butt I'll Guarentee you with Alan and Davey around Gordon would not have the stats he has.....nuff said not argueing with you cause you just don't know.

I am curious how you decided that there was a lower level of competition in the mid late 80's than there was in the 90's when Gordon made his numbers?

You're right, there's not point in arguing with someone who thinks factual driver stats are pulled out of the ass because they conflict with your guaranteed alternant reality....which YOU pulled outta YOUR ass.

Kulwicki was 39 when he died. I compared the start of Davey' career to the start of Jeff's career, so blow all the hot air you want about being 32 and "coming into his own".

You should get out of that scourchung Florida sun ASAP. Some of your important cranium filler is getting cooked.

 

[robbybee]

You're right, there's not point in arguing with someone who thinks factual driver stats are pulled out of the ass because they conflict with your guaranteed alternant reality....which YOU pulled outta YOUR ass.

Kulwicki was 39 when he died. I compared the start of Davey' career to the start of Jeff's career, so blow all the hot air you want about being 32 and "coming into his own".

You should get out of that scourchung Florida sun ASAP. Some of your important cranium filler is getting cooked.

FB, might I suggest SPELL CHECK?

 

[FenderBumper]

FB, might I suggest SPELL CHECK?

If that's the best you can do.

 

[SST55]

This is just like the debate over the greatest heavyweight in boxing. Ali? Marciano? Joe Lewis? Man o' War or Secratariat in horse racing?

Sr was a 7 time champ, but Yarbough won 3 in a row and JJ 5. Who is/was the better driver?

Determining the best of all time is a matter of your perspective.

 

[FenderBumper]

This is just like the debate over the greatest heavyweight in boxing. Ali? Marciano? Joe Lewis? Man o' War or Secratariat in horse racing?

Sr was a 7 time champ, but Yarbough won 3 in a row and JJ 5. Who is/was the better driver?

Determining the best of all time is a matter of your perspective.

Exactly, but we can back up our opinions with facts rather than info gleaned from seance's and science fiction novels.

 

[SST55]

I'm not sure if backing up a opinion with facts it still remains a opinion. Doesn't it then become a statement of fact? Provided the facts are true and reliable? Which opens the debate even further. Are the facts true and reliable?

Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling
Tastes great
Less filling


Besides, everyone knows it was Sr.

 

[FenderBumper]

I'm not sure if backing up a opinion with facts it still remains a opinion. Doesn't it then become a statement of fact? Provided the facts are true and reliable? Which opens the debate even further. Are the facts true and reliable?

It's simple. There are a bunch of reliable and factual racing sites to back up an opinion. Use them.

Saying "IF Fred Flintstone didn't die in 23 BC, Jesus Christ wouldn't have amounted to much" isn't the type of argument anyone should use....or accept.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink. Since it's no fun arguing about assholes, lets hash out some opinions. Lets just do it intelligently.

 

[Gordon_Fan24]

This is just like the debate over the greatest heavyweight in boxing. Ali? Marciano? Joe Lewis? Man o' War or Secratariat in horse racing?

Sr was a 7 time champ, but Yarbough won 3 in a row and JJ 5. Who is/was the better driver?

Determining the best of all time is a matter of your perspective.

Bingo! It is impossible to determine the true "best of all time" I think there are some drivers names that will always come up in that conversation...if you happen to be one of those drivers than I say great job, you have done SOMETHING right in your career! But who is the best ever to one, is not gonna be to another...personal opinion and which drivers the individual likes will always play a roll in their opinion.

With that said, as far as the Gordon, Allison, Kulwicki thing goes....the argument that "if they were around, he wouldn't have did what he did" is bogus in my opinion. It is tragic to lose anyone too soon, but you can not say that them being there would have made a difference in history...I mean there is just no way to TRULY know. It is just like many say that if Tim Richmond had been around longer, he woulda had some of Dale Sr.'s championships...is that possible, sure, but do we know that for sure? No. So the history books shows Dale Sr. as a 7 time champion...

 

[fastfordfan]

Why it will turn into bull chit contest

 

[robbybee]

Besides, everyone knows it was Sr.

This is the biggest argument against the "contest".

 

[FenderBumper]

It seems that a lot of senior members are crouchity old farts.

 

[FlFlash]

It seems that a lot of senior members are crouchity old farts.

You refering to me? Better watch the name callin sonny this old dog can still kick some ass.

Statistics don't always tell the whole story it's something every statistician should learn.

Lets look at Davey Allisons Rookie year 1987.
Daytona 500 Davey becomes the First Rookie to qualify on the front row at the Daytona 500.
Won his first race at Talledega spring race, did he Luck into it? NO he passed Dale Earnhardt on the last lap.
Won his second race at Dover, First rookie to ever WIN Two races in his Rookie year. I'm not sure if anyone else has yet?
Had 9 Top 5's 10 Top 10's and 5 Poles his Rookie year and finished 21st in points EVEN though the Ranier #28 team only entered 22 races ( they only ran the Big races which makes his stats even more impressive )
Of course Davey Allison was the 1987 Rookie of the year.

 

[FlFlash]

Butt there was "No Competition" in 1987......lets see who was racing and Winning that year.

Dale Earnhardt 11 Wins and Cup Champ
Bill Elliot 6 Wins
Tim Richmond 2 Wins
Rusty Wallace 2 Wins
Ricky Rudd 2 Wins
Terry Labonte 1 Win
Darrel Waltrip 1 Win
Kyle Petty 1 Win
Bobby Allison 1 Win

Yep just what I thought a bunch of Nobodys

 

[robbybee]

Davey probably would have been one of the greats!

Brother Clifford probably would have been one too!

But we will never know for sure...

 

[FlFlash]

Just sayin you have to do more then read stats off the internet to determine Who the Really Great Drivers where/are. Thats all.

 

[robbybee]

Just sayin you have to do more then read stats off the internet to determine Who the Really Great Drivers where/are. Thats all.

agreed

 

[FenderBumper]

Just sayin you have to do more then read stats off the internet to determine Who the Really Great Drivers where/are. Thats all.

Now, wasn't that easy?

I love what Kulwicki accomplished, and I find it bogus that Tony is given the same credit when we know it wasn't near the same.

Davey could have been great, but we'll never know. He sure would have gotten a share of Jeffs wins, but you gotta admit that Jeff was phenominal. Even the great Dale Sr marveled at his talent.

 

[FlFlash]

Now, wasn't that easy?

I love what Kulwicki accomplished, and I find it bogus that Tony is given the same credit when we know it wasn't near the same.

Davey could have been great, but we'll never know. He sure would have gotten a share of Jeffs wins, but you gotta admit that Jeff was phenominal. Even the great Dale Sr marveled at his talent.

FB, I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

 

[Gordon_Fan24]

Now, wasn't that easy?

I love what Kulwicki accomplished, and I find it bogus that Tony is given the same credit when we know it wasn't near the same.

Davey could have been great, but we'll never know. He sure would have gotten a share of Jeffs wins, but you gotta admit that Jeff was phenominal. Even the great Dale Sr marveled at his talent.

I agree what what you said here on both counts....what Kulwicki did is MAJORLY different than Stewart winning this year...and I am certain Davey would of won his fair share of races. I also think that Gordon was phenominal in the mid to late ninties and early 2000s....I really don't see how anyone can disagree with that.....

 

[Greg]

No need for hard feelings, the data only supports some great cases that still cant be proven in an absolute sense.


We are also often more inspired at certain ages, the music of my teens and early adulthood was best to me, so for me that meant Ronnie Van Zant's Lynard Skynard was/is the gold standard.


It can be the way in racing too. The drivers then were the men to me, and everyone else the boys. So the early big metal beast that had no power steering, less safety, less reliability, with driving hands that also were a mechanics hands, and no time to be pretty, was my golden age. The bestest.


So I am an old fart too, but I can respect a young farts same defaults.


For example a teenager or young adult in the early 90's, saw a Jeff Gordon have some great years. Being bent toward him makes a lot of sense for them, it doesn't mean either one is right or wrong.


The most talented ever? It could been one some guy running a regional series, at one of the local tracks.

 

[FlFlash]

I agree what what you said here on both counts....what Kulwicki did is MAJORLY different than Stewart winning this year...and I am certain Davey would of won his fair share of races. I also think that Gordon was phenominal in the mid to late ninties and early 2000s....I really don't see how anyone can disagree with that.....

At no point did I say Jeff Gordon was not a phenominal driver, I merely commented that if other drivers where in the mix during his run in the 90's his stats would not be what they are.
Think about it, JG came into the sport In the Best equipment and on the Best Team during a time when there was no other Real Competition.

 

[FlFlash]

The most talented ever? It could been one some guy running a regional series, at one of the local tracks.

Or some kid riding the bumper cars at the fair.

 

[KingGlamis]

No such thing as a "Best Cup driver of all time." It's like comparing sports cars from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and the newer ones. The FASTEST muscle car of 1970 would flat out lose any race against a 2011 Camaro or Mustang. Not trying to disrespect The King, but if Richard started driving in 1990 or in 2000 he would NOT have 200 wins. Times change. I'm a Jimmie Johnson fan, and he's the only one to get five Championships in a row. I still don't consider him the best driver ever, just one of the best.

We should honor the drivers we love, both current and past, and leave it at that. "Best" is a matter of opinion, not fact.

 

[robbybee]

... but if Richard (Petty) started driving in 1990 or in 2000 he would NOT have 200 wins.

Partly due to the fact that back in his day, NASCAR ran two or three time per week on fairground tracks, dirt tracks, speedways and road courses.

 

[KingGlamis]

Partly due to the fact that back in his day, NASCAR ran two or three time per week on fairground tracks, dirt tracks, speedways and road courses.

Exactly my point.

 

[robbybee]

Exactly my point.

But Richard still does have 200 checkered flags in his collection!

The only driver who has even an outside chance of getting 200 NASCAR wins is Kyle Busch!

 

[HoneyBadger]

Partly due to the fact that back in his day, NASCAR ran two or three time per week on fairground tracks, dirt tracks, speedways and road courses.

Exactly my point.

Richard Petty averaged 34.4 Sprint Cup Series starts per year over his 34 year career. The Sprint Cup Series runs 36 races a year (every year dating back to 2001). To put that in to hindsight of drivers of today, Kyle Busch averages 71 starts a year across three divisions of racing... Richard Petty ran 61 races in 1964. I just don't think this is a valid argument anymore seeing as many of the Cup drivers are running Nationwide AND Trucks, some damn near full time.

 

[KingGlamis]

But Richard still does have 200 checkered flags in his collection!

The only driver who has even an outside chance of getting 200 NASCAR wins is Kyle Busch!

Now that was just a silly statement right there. You should punish yourself for such a stupid statement.

 

[HoneyBadger]

But Richard still does have 200 checkered flags in his collection!

The only driver who has even an outside chance of getting 200 NASCAR wins is Kyle Busch!

Kyle will get 200 NASCAR wins, and I will always bring up the statistics I mentioned above when people try to compare him to Petty.

The majority of those wins are still in the NASCAR Nationwide Series. All of Petty's wins were in the Cup Series. And seeing as they run 36 races a year which is on par with Petty's average starts per season, the Cup drivers have every chance in the world to get to 200 wins in Cup. Different eras, different level of competition but the 200 stands alone. If Kyle surpasses 200, and he will, there will always be an asterisk by his name and the only major outlet it will matter to is SPEED.

 

[robbybee]

Now that was just a silly statement right there. You should punish yourself for such a stupid statement.

Really???! Why is that silly? He already has 100 NASCAR wins and he's only 26years old! Petty ran multiple races per week at times. Kyle runs multiple races per week at times. 200 wins is 200 wins...

 

[HoneyBadger]

Really???! Why is that silly? He already has 100 NASCAR wins and he's only 26years old! Petty ran multiple races per week at times. Kyle runs multiple races per week at times. 200 wins is 200 wins...

See my previous messages.

 

[Tennessee Racing]

I think it goes without saying the greatest driver of all time is Buckshot Jones. I thought everyone already knew that

 

[Greg]

I think it goes without saying the greatest driver of all time is Buckshot Jones. I thought everyone already knew that

Steven Wallace

In car conversation for proof:


CC: "Steven didnt you see that guy, you just ran all over him

SW: I got him.. didn't I? I have not missed one yet"


Game, set, and match.

 

[Tennessee Racing]

Steven Wallace

In car conversation for proof:


CC: "Steven didnt you see that guy, you just ran all over him

SW: I got him.. didn't I? I have not missed one yet"


Game, set, and match.

He reminds me of playing Grand Theft Auto. You get bored and just start running over every person you see.

 

[ted@economy]

Really???! Why is that silly? He already has 100 NASCAR wins and he's only 26years old! Petty ran multiple races per week at times. Kyle runs multiple races per week at times. 200 wins is 200 wins...

If you read Andy's comment in the other thread about Richie Evans' vast number of wins ...isn't it somehow comparable to Kyle 's body of work.Won't they both be underappreciated?

 

[FenderBumper]

FB, I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

And now you're just old and stupid. Start looking up some facts and stop showing how little you know about cup drivers. If you don't like the comments coming back at you, settle your ass down tough guy.

Davey won 2 races in his first full rookie season. Denny Hamlin won 2 and finished 68 points short of a chanpionship. Tony won 3, then 6 his second year. Jimmie Johnson won 3. There's more. Look it up.

 

[FenderBumper]

Partly due to the fact that back in his day, NASCAR ran two or three time per week on fairground tracks, dirt tracks, speedways and road courses.

That argument goes 2 way. There were 10 years where Petty ran more than 36 races a year, but his career average was 34 start per year. He also dealt with an average of 8 DNF's due to mechanical failure PER YEAR.

I looked at Pettys stats, and who he raced for his wins. After factoring in qualifying races that no longer count, and the races with less than 3 of THE top drivers in the field, he still has 136 Cup wins.

So, I don't count a single one of Kyles NW wins, because when Tony runs NW, or even Kurt, Kyle doesn't win. Kyle needs to stop this bogus wannabe Petty routine and actually get his glory against the best in the sport on Sunday. When he turns his back on Truck and NW, he'll start to wrack up the cup wins and get some championships.

 

[FenderBumper]

I agree what what you said here on both counts....what Kulwicki did is MAJORLY different than Stewart winning this year...and I am certain Davey would of won his fair share of races. I also think that Gordon was phenominal in the mid to late ninties and early 2000s....I really don't see how anyone can disagree with that.....

Thank you. "Coulda if" just doesn't cut it when put against "Actually did".

Jeff Gordon ruled nascar against some great drivers, and he did it very early in his career. It's no coincidence Dale Sr didn't win another championship after Jeff came into his own.

 

[Gordon_Fan24]

At no point did I say Jeff Gordon was not a phenominal driver, I merely commented that if other drivers where in the mix during his run in the 90's his stats would not be what they are.
Think about it, JG came into the sport In the Best equipment and on the Best Team during a time when there was no other Real Competition.

Not to sound like a jerk..but I must of missed when I directed my post at you....I wasn't attacking you, I was making a broad statement. However, one thing I will argue you is how do you figure that Henrick had the "best equipment" at the time JG came in? Hendrick was not the "biggest dog on the block" at that time. Because of the money Hendrick has made since then, in part thanks to JG, Hendrick now has the best equipment. There is a big difference in HMS pre-Gordon and now....

Thank you. "Coulda if" just doesn't cut it when put against "Actually did".

Jeff Gordon ruled nascar against some great drivers, and he did it very early in his career. It's no coincidence Dale Sr didn't win another championship after Jeff came into his own.

I think that in NASCAR there always seems to be almost a "changing of the guard" sort of thing. Sr. ruled until Gordon came around, Gordon dominated until JJ showed up...the only question is..who's next?