xfinity, I'm done

SpeedPagan said:
People always use that argument, the huge difference is that Jimmie Johnson was beating guys at his level of expertise and talent. Kyle Busch is basically winning in the minor league. I guess he has a fragile ego if he has a need to beat drivers in minor league.
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So Kyle is the only Cup driver in the race? No.
He beat two other Cup drivers Saturday.
 
Personally, Kyle winning isn't what bothers me. It's Kyle winning in a JGR car. I don't like Cup drivers, yes including Dillon, running Xfinity races with their cup teams. I didn't mind Harry Gant driving for Ed Whitaker or Dale Earnhardt driving his own cars. In all honesty, even though I am a huge fan of Richard Childress, I think he is part of the problem. I think Gibbs bought Bobby Labonte's Busch series team before RCR started his Busch team. I'm thinkingoing Roush may have been the one to start the trend, but he didn't start out with a full time team, but man, they dominated. I'd be happy with a rule that says cup drivers cannot run Xfinity for their cup owners, but they would find ways to get around that.
 
You want Cuppers out of Xfinity or Trucks? Simple, stop paying them. NASCAR can easily come up with a rule that if you sign up to compete for points in the Sprint Cup Series only, then that's the only series you'll make money on.
 
SpeedPagan said:
You want Cuppers out of Xfinity or Trucks? Simple, stop paying them. NASCAR can easily come up with a rule that if you sign up to compete for points in the Sprint Cup Series only, then that's the only series you'll make money on.
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Cup teams would quit farming the lower series and there would be less tickets sold.
 
The Cuppers aren't leaving Xfinity or Trucks anytime soon because of the sponsorship implications. The lower tier series' allow companies like Hunt Brothers Pizza to say "We sponsor Kevin Harvick!" without having to pony up the $ to do it at the Cup level. And without a driver with name recognition, companies like HBP, Discount Tire, and NOS might take a pass on NASCAR entirely.
 
I don't believe the problem is Cup drivers entering in Xfin races. I believe the problem is that the Cup teams run the show, and the non-Cup teams can no longer compete. Like not even close. I don't know what factors have led to such disparity, but I think it's killing interest in the series. All the major Cup teams are now represented in Xfin, and the gap between those Cup teams and the other guys has reached an all-time extreme.

Yes, Kyle Busch wins half of the races he enters, and leads a million laps. But 20 years ago, was it really that much different? Mark Martin raced a dozen BGN races a year in a Roush car and won quite often. The Labontes did it, Earnhardt and Gant and Irvan did it, Jeff Burton did it, Dale Jarrett did it, hell even Jimmy Spencer and Joe Nemechek did it. Even back in the 80s, Grand National races had several Cup drivers entered on a regular basis.

The difference back then was that the BGN teams could actually compete with the Cup teams/drivers. Guys like Steve Grissom and Randy Lajoie and Chad Little could run toe to toe with anyone. Not anymore they can't. The good BGN teams have steadily declined over the years to the point where Turner Motorsports was the only team that could run with the big boys, and that's been a few years ago now.
 
SpeedPagan said:
It's still a boring ass production to see a Cupper win half of the Xfinity or Camping World races.
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I think this is the real point here. The races are boring when the cup guys take over.

From a pure racing point of view I have no problem with the cup guys entering. It's just not fun to watch the same movie every week.
 
2 Sweet said:
I don't believe the problem is Cup drivers entering in Xfin races. I believe the problem is that the Cup teams run the show, and the non-Cup teams can no longer compete. Like not even close. I don't know what factors have led to such disparity, but I think it's killing interest in the series. All the major Cup teams are now represented in Xfin, and the gap between those Cup teams and the other guys has reached an all-time extreme.

Yes, Kyle Busch wins half of the races he enters, and leads a million laps. But 20 years ago, was it really that much different? Mark Martin raced a dozen BGN races a year in a Roush car and won quite often. The Labontes did it, Earnhardt and Gant and Irvan did it, Jeff Burton did it, Dale Jarrett did it, hell even Jimmy Spencer and Joe Nemechek did it. Even back in the 80s, Grand National races had several Cup drivers entered on a regular basis.

The difference back then was that the BGN teams could actually compete with the Cup teams/drivers. Guys like Steve Grissom and Randy Lajoie and Chad Little could run toe to toe with anyone. Not anymore they can't. The good BGN teams have steadily declined over the years to the point where Turner Motorsports was the only team that could run with the big boys, and that's been a few years ago now.
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I think another difference between the 80's/90's and now is that there weren't nearly as many companion events back then. I know that some Cup guys still compete in Xfinity races that are at a different track on the same weekend, but it's a lot easier to run an Xfinity race if you're already at that track, which the current schedule enables a lot more than the schedules from a couple decades ago.
 
In the past, the cup drivers drove Bush series team cars. Today they drive Cup team cars and that is what drove the Bush series teams to extinction.
 
I don't really take all that much issue with Cup drivers in the Xfinity Series but if they are going to continue this farce of a Chase Championship format, boot them the heck out for those Chase races. At least let those guys shine in their own playoff season.

Took a look back at the all time win list in the Xfinity Series. Good Ol' Mart Martin takes the spot behind Kyle Xfinity Busch with 49 Xfinity wins. 41 of those were under Cup owner, Jack Roush's banner. And, Martin wasn't the only one. While there are more these days, this is nothing new. There are lots of other examples if you only take the time to look.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I don't really take all that much issue with Cup drivers in the Xfinity Series but if they are going to continue this farce of a Chase Championship format, boot them the heck out for those Chase races. At least let those guys shine in their own playoff season.

Took a look back at the all time win list in the Xfinity Series. Good Ol' Mart Martin takes the spot behind Kyle Xfinity Busch with 49 Xfinity wins. 41 of those were under Cup owner, Jack Roush's banner. And, Martin wasn't the only one. While there are more these days, this is nothing new. There are lots of other examples if you only take the time to look.
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I believe most would agree that stick and ball principles don't translate well to Nascar but I think Nascar having some sort of dedicated minor league/feeder system would be a good idea however I don't see it happening.

I am waiting for Nascar to implement conferences and divisions as the Allison division could have JJ, Carl Edwards, JMc and a couple of back markers and other divisions could be set up similarly.
 
the fundamental p[problem with Xfinity and other problems in the sport is that unlike all the other 12 sports NASCAR is family run with a dumb family who is clueless and does not care. MLB has winter meetings to enhance the sport. NASCAR does not.
 
Let cuppers race to teach the xfinity drivers, Yeah right.
How about the highest finishing regular gets the trophy and 1st place money, all other regulars jump over cuppers and get their money. Cuppers race for fun so they get a thanks for playing and a lovely parting gift
 
I had the race "on" in my mancave ( in mute mode) but was busy with projects, so I didnt pay much attention to it. I saw the last few laps with the usual outcome. Yawn. I wonder how they can afford to pay out with the stands nearly empty? This series doest have longevity written on it. tv ratings continue to fall as well.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I don't believe the problem is Cup drivers entering in Xfin races. I believe the problem is that the Cup teams run the show, and the non-Cup teams can no longer compete. Like not even close. I don't know what factors have led to such disparity, but I think it's killing interest in the series. All the major Cup teams are now represented in Xfin, and the gap between those Cup teams and the other guys has reached an all-time extreme.

Yes, Kyle Busch wins half of the races he enters, and leads a million laps. But 20 years ago, was it really that much different? Mark Martin raced a dozen BGN races a year in a Roush car and won quite often. The Labontes did it, Earnhardt and Gant and Irvan did it, Jeff Burton did it, Dale Jarrett did it, hell even Jimmy Spencer and Joe Nemechek did it. Even back in the 80s, Grand National races had several Cup drivers entered on a regular basis.

The difference back then was that the BGN teams could actually compete with the Cup teams/drivers. Guys like Steve Grissom and Randy Lajoie and Chad Little could run toe to toe with anyone. Not anymore they can't. The good BGN teams have steadily declined over the years to the point where Turner Motorsports was the only team that could run with the big boys, and that's been a few years ago now.
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I miss Chad Little, he was a favorite. I bought a John Deere lawn tractor and a chain saw because of that sponsorship. I still have some merchandise. From Spokane Washington I believe.....
 
I like cup guys in Xfinity and trucks. I think the solution is to encourage more participation from cup guys, not less. It definitely drives my interest level up to have cup guys there. NASCAR should rescind their points in only one series rule, which in my not so humble opinion only serves to relegate Xfinity and trucks to a lower class and limit interest. Instead of classifying Xfinity and truck as "lower tier" make them equal. How cool would it be to see one of these guys win the championship in all three series in the same year. Yeah, I'm thinking Kyle Busch, but what if it was Chase Elliott, Daniel Suarez, or Erik Jones? Or Chris Buescher? That would be some cool history in my book.

And whoever keeps using the Triple A baseball analogy as an argument against cup guys running in Xfinity or trucks.....try again.
 
CaptainHiTop said:
I like cup guys in Xfinity and trucks. I think the solution is to encourage more participation from cup guys, not less. It definitely drives my interest level up to have cup guys there. NASCAR should rescind their points in only one series rule, which in my not so humble opinion only serves to relegate Xfinity and trucks to a lower class and limit interest. Instead of classifying Xfinity and truck as "lower tier" make them equal. How cool would it be to see one of these guys win the championship in all three series in the same year. Yeah, I'm thinking Kyle Busch, but what if it was Chase Elliott, Daniel Suarez, or Erik Jones? Or Chris Buescher? That would be some cool history in my book.

And whoever keeps using the Triple A baseball analogy as an argument against cup guys running in Xfinity or trucks.....try again.
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CaptainHiTop said:
I like cup guys in Xfinity and trucks. I think the solution is to encourage more participation from cup guys, not less. It definitely drives my interest level up to have cup guys there. NASCAR should rescind their points in only one series rule, which in my not so humble opinion only serves to relegate Xfinity and trucks to a lower class and limit interest. Instead of classifying Xfinity and truck as "lower tier" make them equal. How cool would it be to see one of these guys win the championship in all three series in the same year. Yeah, I'm thinking Kyle Busch, but what if it was Chase Elliott, Daniel Suarez, or Erik Jones? Or Chris Buescher? That would be some cool history in my book.

And whoever keeps using the Triple A baseball analogy as an argument against cup guys running in Xfinity or trucks.....try again.
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We already have a series where all the Sprint Cup guys compete...it's called the Sprint Cup Series. We don't need 3 of the same thing.
 
There's ALWAYS been big teams and little teams, always will be too.

I don't get the opposition, if the racing is good then I'll watch. If the racing sucks then I'll tune it out.

I don't care if it's David vs Goliath, the names and teams change over time. I just like watching good hard racing.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think another difference between the 80's/90's and now is that there weren't nearly as many companion events back then. I know that some Cup guys still compete in Xfinity races that are at a different track on the same weekend, but it's a lot easier to run an Xfinity race if you're already at that track, which the current schedule enables a lot more than the schedules from a couple decades ago.
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Wow , do I feel old . An entire generation of fans who don't know why Nascar started doubling down on companion races .
 
The cup teams run Xfinity series for multiple reasons, the biggest being sponsors want it.
If you take out the cup drivers you may have 1 car from each cup team running. Who is going to see a race that has tops 10 cars running. There are no teams other than Cup and maybe 2 others running.
 
Pros
-Creates jobs that people otherwise wouldn't have.
-Is a great judge of talent of young and upcoming drivers.
-Appealing to newer fans who may not know Xfinity regulars.

Cons
-Ridiculous to have full-fledged cup teams and drivers paired up together.
-Slowly but surely is running out Busch Grand National/Nationwide/Xfinity owners.
-Takes away exposure from smaller funded teams, while also taking opportunities away from those teams and drivers to succeed, due to the equipment and crew advantage.

Personally, I can't stand it and it has really taken my interest away from the series. The only time I find that acceptable is a driver piloting his own car to build sponsorship. It makes the series incredibly predictable and unappealing. I think Sieg, Clements, etc. are incredibly talented, but it's absolutely ridiculous to expect those smaller operations to compete with the JGR's of the world. Heck, even series god (Kyle Busch) himself, couldn't win for his own team. It's good for Erik Jones, Chase Elliot, etc. because they were/are in top notch cars and can realistically compete with cup drivers.

However, I don't know how the series could stand economically without cup drivers. This is something that should have been fixed 10 years ago and it has gotten to the point where it may be impossible to do. I think the days of series lifers driving for non cup affiliated teams for years at a time are long gone.
 
3wideinturn1 said:
There's ALWAYS been big teams and little teams, always will be too.

I don't get the opposition, if the racing is good then I'll watch. If the racing sucks then I'll tune it out.

I don't care if it's David vs Goliath, the names and teams change over time. I just like watching good hard racing.
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Yeah give me a break. Even at little dirt tracks there are dominant race teams and drivers with substantially more money, that has always been part of the sport
 
Team Penske said:
The cup teams run Xfinity series for multiple reasons, the biggest being sponsors want it.
If you take out the cup drivers you may have 1 car from each cup team running. Who is going to see a race that has tops 10 cars running. There are no teams other than Cup and maybe 2 others running.
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Counting full time and part time , there are 15 teams that are owned by Cup owners.
 
There is ARCA. Those who lament the evolution of 1980's era Busch Grand National series into today's Xfinity Series should be buying tickets and tuning in to the broadcasts for ARCA races.

No Cup drivers, no Cup teams, a mix of young drivers and series lifers, all racing with modest budgets. A few companion races with Nascar cup events, but many stand-alone events including short tracks, big tracks, dirt tracks, and road courses.

Seriously, I'd like to ask... If you are not supporting ARCA now, why should Nascar listen when you ask them to do the same thing with Xfinity?
 
You certainly have a very good point there. Do most fans want a Nascar ARCA series
or would they rather see the ARCA drivers compete against the best drivers around.
One thing I noticed, no one complains about Cup drivers in the poor teams cars. Never read anyone bashing KK.
I think they should leave the Xfinity series be BUT do not allow any driver running for Cup points in the truck series.
 
IMO, the Cup drivers draw fans and viewership to the lower series'. I don't see NASCAR disallowing Cup drivers to compete in the lower series' anytime soon.
 
I don't disagree with those that say X would not survive without cup drivers as it is barely supported with cup drivers and teams as it is.
 
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