Big changes coming

BobbyFord said:
I don't. I only know what happened since Brian took over.
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And that's MY point. Neither you nor anyone else on the planet knows what would have happened if NASCAR had made no changes, or if they'd made different ones, or if they had announced today that they were returning to the pre-Chase rules. No one knows, and unless you have a dimension hopper, no one can know. It's all unprovable speculation.

I can't see condemning something before we've even seen it, but I won't try to convince you to watch something you don't think you'll like. I hope you find something else to amuse yourself.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
And that's MY point. Neither you nor anyone else on the planet knows what would have happened if NASCAR had made no changes, or if they'd made different ones, or if they had announced to day that they were returning to the pre-Chase rules. No one knows, and unless you have a dimension hopper, no one can know. It's all unprovable speculation.
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To what do you credit the decline in overall sport popularity?
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I do think there will be some changes but I still think you will see drivers pulling over to let faster cars by and most of the cars trying to save there stuff for the final segment. After all what good is it trying to execute high risk/dangerous moves if it will end your day? You would be trying to win a battle at great risk of losing the war.
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Nah, all it's gonna take is one driver taking extra risk and then they will all have to follow suit to keep up in points. It's like the lug nut rule. One team starts only hitting four, or even three, and now every single other team has to do it to keep up. That's how it goes.
 
After giving this some more thought,


I like that the points are rolling over into the chase. That was my biggest gripe about the last arrangement. The clean slate thing is bull****. I like that they are attempting to increase the aggression earlier in the race. Even if I don't like how they are doing it.


I despise that they are changing the actual physical race format. Any unnatural stoppage of the race seems asinine to me.. I hate that this really hinders the racing from a strategic standpoint. I don't like giving out points for positions 1-10 two or three times a race...

I don't know why we can't replace body panels... I don't think it's going to have a positive effect on debris cautions.

I must say, I'm incredibly relieved they aren't stopping the cars at the end of each "stage"(you rally, bro?). That would kill me. I'm also glad that it won't be treated like an intermission, just a pit cycle.

Like most have said, could have been worse.
 
The Nature Boy said:
NASCAR's growth in the mid-90s - early 2000s was truthfully an unsustainable bubble that was not going to last forever. Brian is an idiot for not realizing the boom/bust cycle.
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I agree, but nothing is slowing the spiral death. IMO, these silly cartoon changes that Brian is making are cheapening the racing experience.
The news conference today was a joke. The drivers appeared to be struggling to believe what they were saying. The sport will continue to die. Brian is a desperate leader with no real idea of what to do to stop the hemorrhaging.
Someone needs to appoint a racecar driver to save the sport.
 
gnomesayin said:
It's lifelong attachment for me. I'm 38 and can remember watching NASCAR races for at least 34 years. Also the reality that it's still where the brightest oval track racers are drawn because it's where the big money and recognition is.

I'm a regular viewer of about half the other series you mentioned, as well as at least 10 others. I think I will bow out, as I don't want to spend my time and energy hate-watching NASCAR. Too much negativity, and I don't want to constantly bring that downer-ness into discussions with fans who prefer this or are trying to make the best of it. While I can pick out minor things I 'like' in the latest round of changes, it's all in the context of feeling like this is a big load of manure dumped on several older loads of manure atop a piece of land I used to enjoy roaming.

I agree with you and Smoke that dirt track racing is much better anyway, that's where my real passion for the sport originated and remains. There are many excellent brands of motorsports to watch for traditionalists. While I'm not a strict traditionalist, I'm much closer to that than what I'd have to be to like more of this obsessive tinkering with the basic elements of the sport by people who made it their careers, but apparently have always been bored by it and wish it were something else entirely. It's not going to stop. So I'll step away for a year and see where that leaves me in 2018.
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I used to love open wheel up to the split and have spent oodles of time at IMS and IRP watching midgets and silver crowns. Eldora and Mid-Ohio are not far from me as well as a short track a hop, skip and jump away. I took 2014 off from Nascar mainly due to the chase changes but when I signed up here I started watching again. I don't have anything invested in Nascar as I record the races and only watch from the green to the checkers and skip the commercials and other non essentials and there are times when I can't get to the race until Monday. I used to arrange my flights, vacations and most of my life around Nascar and loved every minute of it but times change and now it is a low priority but there are still elements I enjoy.
 
BobbyFord said:
To what do you credit the decline in overall sport popularity?
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Since I don't have any money tied up in the sport, I haven't done any research on the subject. I won't claim to have a comprehensive list. An abundance of 'cookie cutter' tracks? The effects of the recession on people being able to afford to attend, or on sponsors being able to afford to support cars? TV broadcasts shot full of commercials? Expanding too rapidly, and assuming it would continue? Earnhardt's death? Dodge's exit? Toyota's introduction? Dodge's return only to exit again?

I'll give PARTIAL blame to the rules changes, but there are plenty of other factors. I don't think either of us has a statistically accurate way to measure the individual impact of any of them. My opinion is just semi-informed guesses and shots in the dark. We'd have to start by asking former fans why they made their choices. I will take a bet that NASCAR's marketing office did that, along with other forms of marketing research I can't even guess at.

And frankly, events and activities have always risen and fallen in popularity on a cyclical basis. I regularly read here that viewership is down across the board in sports. Tiger Woods took golf to numbers no one had seen since Palmer and Nicklaus. Current players are as good or better, but their viewership is down anyway without the sport changing. Look at the mid-80s when pro wrestling was everywhere. The mid- and late 70s were all about tennis. Almost nobody cares about boxing any more, and a hundred years ago it was the top form of entertainment in sports. Why there are no westerns on TV anymore? Oh, they were replaced by 'reality programming', which fell to police procedurals. Stuff comes and goes. My point is that neither of us can accurately, definitively say where NASCAR would be today if there had been no changes made in the last 20 years.

BobbyFord said:
I agree, but nothing is slowing the spiral death.
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Then it doesn't matter what was or wasn't said today. You're already convinced the sport is dying. Why worry about it? Breathe in, breathe out, move on.
 
The Nature Boy said:
NASCAR's growth in the mid-90s - early 2000s was truthfully an unsustainable bubble that was not going to last forever. Brian is an idiot for not realizing the boom/bust cycle.
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Nascar could have retained a lot of the people that came during the boom but they had blinders on and arrogantly pursued a foolish agenda.
 
I may be alone, but I like it. It should provide some exciting racing in the early to mid portions of the race. It will be great to see two guys battling hard for 7th place at halfway. No chance to lay back and settle in and work on your car on the next stop. It's going to be go time from the green flag. It's going to produce more pit strategy in early portions of every race. I really don't see why people don't like it. Manufacturered drama? Maybe, but I watch racing to see those exciting moments. This will create more.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Nah, all it's gonna take is one driver taking extra risk and then they will all have to follow suit to keep up in points. It's like the lug nut rule. One team starts only hitting four, or even three, and now every single other team has to do it to keep up. That's how it goes.
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If you are right the guys in the fab shops will be very busy as they will be wrecking like crazy as there is no way that drivers can take increased risks without that happening. Fortunately I think most of the guys will get what they can and not resort to stupidity as crashing out early has never reaped rewards. I will be interested to see how it all shakes out.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Since I don't have any money tied up in the sport, I haven't done any research on the subject. I won't claim to have a comprehensive list. An abundance of 'cookie cutter' tracks? The effects of the recession on people being able to afford to attend, or on sponsors being able to afford to support cars? TV broadcasts shot full of commercials? Expanding too rapidly, and assuming it would continue? Earnhardt's death? Dodge's exit? Toyota's introduction? Dodge's return only to exit again?

I'll give PARTIAL blame to the rules changes, but there are plenty of other factors. I don't think either of us has a statistically accurate way to measure the individual impact of any of them. My opinion is just semi-informed guesses and shots in the dark. We'd have to start by asking former fans why they made their choices. I will take a bet that NASCAR's marketing office did that, along with other forms of marketing research I can't even guess at.

And frankly, events and activities have always risen and fallen in popularity on a cyclical basis. I regularly read here that viewership is down across the board in sports. Tiger Woods took golf to numbers no one had seen since Palmer and Nicklaus. Current players are as good or better, but their viewership is down anyway without the sport changing. Look at the mid-80s when pro wrestling was everywhere. The mid- and late 70s were all about tennis. Almost nobody cares about boxing any more, and a hundred years ago it was the top form of entertainment in sports. Why there are no westerns on TV anymore? Oh, they were replaced by 'reality programming', which fell to police procedurals. Stuff comes and goes. My point is that neither of us can accurately, definitively say where NASCAR would be today if there had been no changes made in the last 20 years.
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I understand your post and I appreciate your debate.
I can't think of another major televised sport that has made more extensive changes in recent past.
I have to suspect that all of these changes are causing confusion and disconnect with the fanbase.
I hurts my heart to watch this sport die. NASCAR has been a big part of my life for a long time. I don't want it to be gone but these changes are driving me away. I have to believe that other fans are also hurting. This isn't what I want but I can realize that these changes aren't "racing." A pause in racing isn't racing.
It's going to hurt but I'm going to let NASCAR go.
 
DUN24 said:
After giving this some more thought,


I like that the points are rolling over into the chase. That was my biggest gripe about the last arrangement. The clean slate thing is bull****. I like that they are attempting to increase the aggression earlier in the race. Even if I don't like how they are doing it.


I despise that they are changing the actual physical race format. Any unnatural stoppage of the race seems asinine to me.. I hate that this really hinders the racing from a strategic standpoint. I don't like giving out points for positions 1-10 two or three times a race...

I don't know why we can't replace body panels... I don't think it's going to have a positive effect on debris cautions.

I must say, I'm incredibly relieved they aren't stopping the cars at the end of each "stage"(you rally, bro?). That would kill me. I'm also glad that it won't be treated like an intermission, just a pit cycle.

Like most have said, could have been worse.
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If unnatural stoppages bother you that much then you should have stopped watching ten years ago when Phantom Cautions came to prominence. That was actually a big reason why I took my six year break from the sport.

What about not replacing body panels? I must have missed that.
 
BobbyFord said:
I agree, but nothing is slowing the spiral death.
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BobbyFord said:
I understand your post and I appreciate your debate.
I can't think of another major televised sport that has made more extensive changes in recent past.
I have to suspect that all of these changes are causing confusion and disconnect with the fanbase.
I hurts my heart to watch this sport die. NASCAR has been a big part of my life for a long time. I don't want it to be gone but these changes are driving me away. I have to believe that other fans are also hurting. This isn't what I want but I can realize that these changes aren't "racing." A pause in racing isn't racing.
It's going to hurt but I'm going to let NASCAR go.
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Best wishes. I certainly don't know if I'll stick around. As I said in the other thread, I'll watch the first half-dozen non-plate races ('cause the oddities of Daytona don't prove squat). I may be gone myself around Bristol. I just think it's too soon to write it off without at least testing the product.
 
cheesepuffs said:
If unnatural stoppages bother you that much then you should have stopped watching ten years ago when Phantom Cautions came to prominence. That was actually a big reason why I took my six year break from the sport.

What about not replacing body panels? I must have missed that.
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They've pissed me off since then. This **** is like smoking. I can't quit. I'd like to do away with the fantom yellows/debris cautions... Which I believe is why they introduced the rule that prohibits replacements of body panels. Though I think all that will do is allow other pieces of the car to flap about and fall off.

Teams won't be allowed to replace body panels during a race, and teams will have additional limitations on crash repair. This will likely result in wrecked cars not being able to repair and return to the track.
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https://www.google.com/amp/www.spor...ents/18x1y9nl4rkia1t3mrmt4wtpvq?client=safari
 
cheesepuffs said:
If unnatural stoppages bother you that much then you should have stopped watching ten years ago when Phantom Cautions came to prominence. That was actually a big reason why I took my six year break from the sport.

What about not replacing body panels? I must have missed that.
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IDK how long you have watched for but there have been an abundance of bogus cautions in the last 10 years and they will continue on into the upcoming year. Unless the aero problem is addressed a car will still check out on the field, cars will get strung out and cars in dirty air won't be able to pass so Nascar will still need to intervene.
 
DUN24 said:
They've pissed me off since then. This sh!t is like smoking. I can't quit. I'd like to do away with the fantom yellows/debris cautions... Which I believe is why they introduced the rule that prohibits replacements of body panels. Though I think all that will do is allow other pieces of the car to flap about and fall off.



https://www.google.com/amp/www.spor...ents/18x1y9nl4rkia1t3mrmt4wtpvq?client=safari
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Thanks for the link. Interesting, so now all those formed noses and whatnot won't be lugged to the track anymore. At Martinsville this won't be as big of a deal, but at the intermediates and supers, yeah its gonna be game over.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Best wishes. I certainly don't know if I'll stick around. As I said in the other thread, I'll watch the first half-dozen non-plate races ('cause the oddities of Daytona don't prove squat). I may be gone myself around Bristol. I just think it's too soon to write it off without at least testing the product.
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I can't see myself walking away but I may pare the events I watch down based on what I see. Either way it won't impact me to any degree.
 
cheesepuffs said:
Thanks for the link. Interesting, so now all those formed noses and whatnot won't be lugged to the track anymore. At Martinsville this won't be as big of a deal, but at the intermediates and supers, yeah its gonna be game over.
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Yeah you can add that to the pile of "things I don't like"
 
cheesepuffs said:
You guys need to not look at this as, "Ugh, ANOTHER change...", but as the way that the chase should have been implemented from the very beginning if it had been implemented well.

With the bonus points that carry through the first three rounds, this now means that the whole season matters again. Anybody who was upset about the chase should be satisfied that the first 26 races matter again and help you in the championship. This is like the perfect blend of new and old.
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I am intrigued that you like this (I don't mean that sarcastically). I am watching your posts carefully. Keep bringing it.
 
Paul Menard's reaction to these changes..

paul.jpg
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The built in TV timeouts, which is what they are, mean they will get some of the commercials out of the way during the intermissions.



Because NBC decides to interrupt the hockey game to have commercials instead of taking advantage of timeouts and intermissions and stuff. :rolleyes:

Fox has been asking for "TV timeouts" for years so they can have some built in commercial periods.
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Just do the damn side by side commercials, people see the entire race and hear/see the commercials. Problem solved.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Nascar installed a FAQ for the changes.

If you need a FAQ for fans, youve royally screwed it up.

Member when NASCAR used to be go fast, turn left, get most points to win? I member.
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I think you're overblowing this a bit as are many of you. Are they radical changes? Yes. But the bottom line is individual sports are basically a dying breed that were accelerated by the Great Recession and the only thing to buoy them is a larger than life player. Look at today, indycar, tennis and boxing are basically dead. Really only golf and NASCAR are still kicking in the mainstream despite both having a ton of young talent, you just don't see the draw to these things like you used to.

Right now you have the NFL dominating with College Football, and the NBA and MLB becoming their most popular in years. I know many of you old timers and long time fans may not like it, but right now NASCAR has almost no appeal amongst the 16-25 age group and its core is very working class while golf has a high end audience that will always generate enough ad revenue to keep it big


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NASCAR also announced that Miami, Kentucky, Las Vegas, Kansas, Chicagoland, and Indy would be replaced with short tracks.
 
ReturnTrip said:
NASCAR also announced that Miami, Kentucky, Las Vegas, Kansas, Chicagoland, and Indy would be replaced with short tracks.
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This would be the day that the sport died. Speed sales and short tracks may be fun they don't produce enough speed to be the focus of the series.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Because Daytona sucks and we already have two points races there?

I guess they had to. Those races have been totally meaningless recently and will never be as interesting as they used to be.
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Ah. That's a different issue. Instead of asking why the Duels now award points, let's ask why Daytona and Talladega haven't been updated so they're fit for 21st century cars to run on without more modifications than a SoCal car show.
 
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