Parity?

Unlike the stick-and-ball leagues, Nascar has manufacturer-specific specifications. If they have it wrong - such as one marque having more aero potential than another - then an adjustment is needed, IMO.
I'll agree with that, but I'm of the opinion that the adjustment should be to specifications that apply only to one manufacturer. Have the same specs for all makes and models. If that results in minimum-production model runs just to enter a faster car (*cough* SS *cough*), then raise the minimums across the board.
 
gen 6 is beautiful compared to t
I'll agree with that, but I'm of the opinion that the adjustment should be to eliminate specifications that apply only to one manufacturer. If that results in minimum-production model runs just to enter a faster car (*cough* SS *cough), then raise the minimums.
yotas have had three different front ends in 4 years. Perfectly legal according to Nascar BTW, but each one has brought more downforce co incidentally? I myself think it isn't a coincidence especially since they debuted the Cup version alongside with their new model. I believe that is partly what Chad was talking about with factory involvement. Sure helps to design a street car with Nascar in mind. It worked back in the day and it works today.
 
What does safety have to do with parity? It's a reason for NASCAR to set minimum standards, but not a reason to keep one manufacturer from outrunning the others. As long as those standards are met, how is safety hampered by manufacturer dominance?

GM no longer sells the most cars in the US, and (as I noted earlier), fans can no longer buy what's on the track anyway. I still don't get how this piece of history is relevant today. Will reigning in any of the current manufacturers inspire Dodge to return, or any other brand to jump in? Do you think failing to do so will cause Ford or Chevy to leave?

IMO a bunch of red herrings are being tossed around in order to attempt to baffle with BS instead of addressing the question honestly. These guys want to go back to before the modern era to try and make a point and there has been a little water that has gone over the dam since then.
 
gen 6 is beautiful compared to t

yotas have had three different front ends in 4 years.

Who cares? What specific and quantifiable damage has this caused Nascar? Were Ford and GM precluded from making changes or was it their choice not to?
 
gen 6 is beautiful compared to t

yotas have had three different front ends in 4 years. Perfectly legal according to Nascar BTW, but each one has brought more downforce co incidentally? I myself think it isn't a coincidence especially since they debuted the Cup version alongside with their new model. I believe that is partly what Chad was talking about with factory involvement. Sure helps to design a street car with Nascar in mind. It worked back in the day and it works today.
Of course it wasn't a coincidence, but I'm missing your point. I don't keep up with these things much, but how many new front ends did Ford or Chevy ask to have approved in those same 4 years? If less than three (or as I suspect, none), then how is that Toyota's fault? Why is one (or two) manufacturers' failure to improve a reason to hamstring an innovative third one? Would you buy a car from a company that doesn't attempt to improve performance, on or off the track?

I'm going to wind up selling myself one of these things if I'm not careful.
 
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What does safety have to do with parity? It's a reason for NASCAR to set minimum standards, but not a reason to keep one manufacturer from outrunning the others. As long as those standards are met, how is safety hampered by manufacturer dominance?

GM no longer sells the most cars in the US, and (as I noted earlier), fans can no longer buy what's on the track anyway. I still don't get how this piece of history is relevant today. Will reigning in any of the current manufacturers inspire Dodge to return, or any other brand to jump in? Do you think failing to do so will cause Ford or Chevy to leave?

when you see a paragraph that usually means a different topic. The article pointed out more than one reason for outlawing the aero cars, safety, parity, reduced expenses
 
It seems obvious to me.. then again I could be wrong but those big ol scoops on the sides of the front of the Toyotas probably add some down force no?
:idunno:


..and why is Toyota the only manufacturer that uses the same car in both top series'? I say bring the Mustangs and Camaros to cup and let them mess with the nose.
 
when you see a paragraph that usually means a different topic. The article pointed out more than one reason for outlawing the aero cars, safety, parity, reduced expenses
I never asked why about the aero cars were outlawed. I asked why parity was desirable and you pointed me to the article. Then you quoted portions of it that I assumed were related to my original question but now turn out to not apply.

As far as I can tell, all the reasons it offered supporting parity no longer apply. But I'd be happy to listen if you'd give me YOUR reasons why parity is a good thing.
 
Of course it wasn't a coincidence, but I'm missing your point. I don't keep up with these things much, but how many new front ends did Ford or Chevy ask to have approved in those same 4 years? If less than three (or as I suspect, none), then how is that Toyota's fault? Why is their failure to improve a reason to hamstring an innovator? Would you buy a car from a company that doesn't attempt to improve performance, on or off the track?

I'm going to wind up selling myself one of these things if I'm not careful.

I said it was perfectly legal for Toyota to do so. and you and I are going around in circles. It is called parity. BOP or balance of performance in IMSA . You don't race a quarter horse against a thoroughbred is an exaggerated example..Tomorrow GM or Ford could design a car that would blow away a Toyota, or vice versa..it ain't rocket science anymore or a big deal like some are trying to say, a tweak here or there is all it takes these days.
 
I never asked why about the aero cars were outlawed. I asked why parity was desirable and you pointed me to the article. Then you quoted portions of it that weren't related to my original question.

As far as I can tell, all the reasons it offered supporting parity no longer apply. But I'd be happy to listen if you'd give me YOUR reasons why parity is a good thing.
no it ain't, you said you weren't around then and what was crazy about it. All that was in part of why it was crazy. GM was out of it, Bigger motors and wings and things, drivers were dying right and left. If that ain't crazy WTF.
 
I said it was perfectly legal for Toyota to do so. and you and I are going around in circles. It is called parity. BOP or balance of performance in IMSA . You don't race a quarter horse against a thoroughbred is an exaggerated example..Tomorrow GM or Ford could design a car that would blow away a Toyota, or vice versa..it ain't rocket science anymore or a big deal like some are trying to say, a tweak here or there is all it takes these days.
Then let 'em tweak! What's the problem? If Ford or GM come out with a better race car, that's Toyota's engineering issue, not NASCAR's. I understand what parity is; I don't know why it's desirable.
 
no it ain't, you said you weren't around then and what was crazy about it. All that was in part of why it was crazy. GM was out of it, Bigger motors and wings and things, drivers were dying right and left. If that ain't crazy WTF.
Other than drivers dying, I don't see anything crazy about the rest of it.

I asked in the context of parity, the original subject of this discussion. If my question wasn't clearly phrased, I apologize for inadvertently steering off topic in the first place.
 
Of course it wasn't a coincidence, but I'm missing your point. I don't keep up with these things much, but how many new front ends did Ford or Chevy ask to have approved in those same 4 years? If less than three (or as I suspect, none), then how is that Toyota's fault? Why is their failure to improve a reason to hamstring an innovator? Would you buy a car from a company that doesn't attempt to improve performance, on or off the track?

I'm going to wind up selling myself one of these things if I'm not careful.

Ray Bolger would be proud of the straw man stuff going on........:D

What I believe some are saying is that if one manufacturer spends time and money to build a better mousetrap that mousetrap should be either outlawed or the other manufacturers should be able to make cheap changes to their existing model in order to keep up. I suppose they would advocate a really good waitress giving some of her tips to the not so good ones so they could keep up instead of them getting better. I feel like Lenin, Trotsky and Marx have just joined this place.
 
So I still don't know what the downside is to expecting trailing manufacturers to step up their game.

all it took for a second place car of Elliott's was a teeny bit more spoiler and a couple of well placed dents and flairs that the naked eye couldn't tell to be competitive. Like I said, it ain't rocket science
 
all it took for a second place car of Elliott's was a teeny bit more spoiler and a couple of well placed dents and flairs that the naked eye couldn't tell to be competitive. Like I said, it ain't rocket science
That's just cheating, which will happen regardless of the presence or absence of parity or manufacturer-specific standards. That would happen if every team was driving the same make and model.

If the only way for the #24 to come in second is to cheat, then Chevy needs to submit improvements for 2018. Also, the #24 needs to cheat better so they'll win instead.
 
If they would give back what they took away from the Fords, you would probably be singing a different tune and would know what parity is. :D
 
I love the part where Chad says the Chevy's were fast because they were good TEAMS. Where now, the Toyotas are fast because of the manufacture.

Which is why there WAS a bit of parity during the Chevy days. Teams could make up the differences in speed with a good chassis setup whereas now, the advantage is in the Toyota bodies. An advantage that will likely remain until next season. That is, teams just can't CREATE a perfect setup to make up speed when the Toyotas HAVE an advantage.

I get the sense that Chad is saying, yeah, Toyota does have an advantage that is impossible to be made up this season because of the nature of the advantage, but it is still fair
 
If they would give back what they took away from the Fords, you would probably be singing a different tune and would know what parity is. :D
That's not a reason why parity is bad or good. That's your opinion of my opinion.

I have no brand loyalty. I pull for a driver, regardless of what hardware he's sitting in. I pulled for Kenseth in a Chevy in his Busch days, in a Ford with Roush, in a Toyota with Gibbs, and I'll pull for him next year (hopefully) if he's in Hyundai.

What was 'taken' from the Fords? I recall they caught Penske (not all Fords) for a rules violation. I don't recall if the violation was of a specification that applied only to Fords or if it applied to all models. Either way, that's cheating, which has nothing to do with parity. NASCAR can't 'take' what wasn't legal in the first place.

And you still haven't said why parity is good for 2017 NASCAR Cup racing. Give me one reason, please. Try starting with 'Parity is good because..."
 
If you haven't figured it out by now with numerous examples I give up, worn out kaput, done. nada. ;)
 
Parity in motorsports is an idealized, elusive target ... and it's always moving, thanks to the efforts of its competitors.

The game is to move to a place above the target, competitively. Isn't that what racing is all about?
 
Let's face it ---- no matter who you root for, if you think you're being cheated out of something, you're mad. LOL

Now we're talking. Everyone is in favor of having a new recycling area until they learn it will be placed a block from their house and then it is a bad idea.
 
Levels OEM involvement, as I see it:


And they didn't do a single body kit update with the SS, while the Fusion and Camry each have had multiple.
GM did very little updating to the production SS, the updates that they did make were done via decals on the Cup side, the overall body never changed during the production run.
 
IMO if the OP was a Toyota fan this thread never exists. Toyota has worked hard and worked smart in order to gain whatever legal advantage they enjoy and some people want allowances given to Ford and GM so they can keep up. Balderdash! Why should Toyota spend millions developing a better mousetrap only to have the sanctioning body make allowances to that cost the competition NOTHING! Let Ford and GM get their hands dirty and build a better mousetrap than Toyota has as that is how improvement occurs.

For the final time.....OK.....maybe not.......please tell me specifically how Toyota outperforming Ford and GM now is hurting the series. Are less people tuning in or going to the track because of it? Are sponsors not interested in Nascar because of it? Is it making the guys in the booth awful?
 
GM did very little updating to the production SS, the updates that they did make were done via decals on the Cup side, the overall body never changed during the production run.
I don't think Ford's 2014 and 2016 updates had much to do with road car. The first one I think was just because they screwed up the grille area on the 2013 car.
 
GM did very little updating to the production SS, the updates that they did make were done via decals on the Cup side, the overall body never changed during the production run.

nobody, Ford or Chevy has had three front ends in four years. Ford was allowed to get rid of the plastic grill the second year of their latest body. The new composite bodies in Xfinity are working so far, multiple leaders/winners from all of the brands.
 
nobody, Ford or Chevy has had three front ends in four years. Ford was allowed to get rid of the plastic grill the second year of their latest body. The new composite bodies in Xfinity are working so far, multiple leaders/winners from all of the brands.
Yeah, the new grill came with a new nose shape too on Ford , but you are right. Ford and GM did very little changes to the SS and Fusion since 2013, Toyota keeps updating and refreshing the Camry every other year .
 
I don't think Ford's 2014 and 2016 updates had much to do with road car. The first one I think was just because they screwed up the grille area on the 2013 car.
You may be correct
 
Gotta see what the mean Camaro has in store for everyone next year. :D
 
Trying to prove your point with toyota fan boyz is wasting your time.
This is pretty funny coming from you.

Has Clyde hit the button on the siren in Awesomeville yet?
 
Trying to prove your point with toyota fan boyz is wasting your time.

For the OP and some others it is actually a case of disliking Toyota, Joe Gibbs and who knows what else. I know that if Ford or GM were thumping the field because they worked harder and smarter I would have no problem with it. There is still a contingent of people that don't understand the war was over long before they were born and they are upset for reasons only known to them.
 
Sure was lonely being a Toyota fan in 2007. Could have used that parity thing back then....and in 2013 when the motors wouldn't stay whole, and everybody was joking on this board about it...could have used some help from NASCAR on that end of things....and 2014 when we only won two races....no help....no complaining of parity. So before anybody starts slinging ****....ask yourself this question, "Did you give a **** when Toyota was struggling?" No. You. Didn't. So, why do you care now? I think we all know the answer to that.

....seems like just yesterday when all that **** was being slung about how JGR was winless....and now whining and complaining that it is all so unfair.....when you step back and look at it, it is ****** comical. I hope Toyota runs the table....give the haters something to really bitch about. BTW--If I was Kez or Chad, I would be livid with my manufacturer/builder instead of whining about the competition. The optics aren't good as they say.
 
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