Parity?

Keselowski needs to ask Roush if he's missing any sway bars - that's where Toyota's are getting their advantage. ;)
 
So far no one has been able to tell me what specific damage Toyota's recent dominance or for that matter GM's decades long dominance has done to Nascar. No one has been able to tell me why it is OK for a company to spend millions trying to get better and when they do simply give its competitors a means of catching up without lifting a finger or spending a dime.

The silence is absolutely deafening!
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
So far no one has been able to tell me what specific damage Toyota's recent dominance or for that matter GM's decades long dominance has done to Nascar. No one has been able to tell me why it is OK for a company to spend millions trying to get better and when they do simply give its competitors a means of catching up without lifting a finger or spending a dime.

The silence is absolutely deafening!
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I remember incessant noise about how the #48 team was ruining Nascar.
 
This talk of parity got me thinking about something I am in the middle of. I am going to become a financial participant in a local coffee company as the owner is a remarkable person that has a passion for coffee and has fantastic blends. The business needs some capital and help in order to increase its wholesale sales and needs some new equipment to keep up with current and future demand. I can help get the product into some higher end restaurants and churches as well drive some retail business.

If I was doing this for purely business reasons and understood that after things were up and running properly the company had to share its secrets of success with its competitors so they could prosper do you think I would be interested? Do you think anyone in my position would be interested?
 
StandOnIt said:
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Nascar has been balancing teams performances long before you and "your" Toyota's showed up. As pointed out by Kez, the statistics, which many don't believe? and pointed out in thread # 142 Nascar hasn't lifted a finger this year to test ANY of the cars AND this is a common practice for years. Long before Toyota is in the sport.
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You don't like Toyota. Your opinion is as biased as mine. Difference is that I am not preaching global NASCAR "truths." Nobody gave Toyota anything. Why should they give Chevy and Ford...errr, balancing "tweaks?" Because TRD did their job too well?......errr, in your words, "outspent" everybody, right? I respect your opinion--the context is the issue.
 
StandOnIt said:
they were caught cheating a few times during that era. Different deal wrong room but the same building (parity)
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Definitely, but what I also remember about it was fans saying that Nascar was letting them get away with it. I never understood why Nascar would want - much less help - Johnson dominate.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
This talk of parity got me thinking about something I am in the middle of. I am going to become a financial participant in a local coffee company as the owner is a remarkable person that has a passion for coffee and has fantastic blends. The business needs some capital and help in order to increase its wholesale sales and needs some new equipment to keep up with current and future demand. I can help get the product into some higher end restaurants and churches as well drive some retail business.

If I was doing this for purely business reasons and understood that after things were up and running properly the company had to share its secrets of success with its competitors so they could prosper do you think I would be interested? Do you think anyone in my position would be interested?
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I think it would be important that the next time a time gets hot in the NFL that they allow the opposition 15 players on offense and defense to "even" things up. #Tweaks
 
KyBuownsyourbrain said:
I remember incessant noise about how the #48 team was ruining Nascar.
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Obviously the 48 team did not hurt Nascar and it was just a case of malcontents bitching just as it is with Toyota right now. People complained when DW and Rusty and Dale won too much but it didn't hurt Nascar at all.
 
KyBuownsyourbrain said:
Definitely, but what I also remember about it was fans saying that Nascar was letting them get away with it. I never understood why Nascar would want - much less help - Johnson dominate.
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For the record, I liked that era too.
 
Revman said:
You don't like Toyota. Your opinion is as biased as mine. Difference is that I am not preaching global NASCAR "truths." Nobody gave Toyota anything. Why should they give Chevy and Ford...errr, balancing "tweaks?" Because TRD did their job too well?......errr, in your words, "outspent" everybody, right? I respect your opinion--the context is the issue.
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I would have a lot more respect if some folks just came out and said "I can't stand Toyota and want them to fail" because at least it would be honest as opposed to hiding behind someone's skirt and trying to frame the dislike in a disingenuous way.
 
Stupid posts about how many revisions Toyota has had. All have been consistent with current product introductions--Gen 6 thinking. You know, stock car racing.....although there are many who scoff at that too. Maybe Chevy and Ford need tighter product cycles.....or are they hurting again in the cash department?
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Obviously the 48 team did not hurt Nascar and it was just a case of malcontents bitching just as it is with Toyota right now. People complained when DW and Rusty and Dale won too much but it didn't hurt Nascar at all.
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That's what I was thinking :)
 
KyBuownsyourbrain said:
Definitely, but what I also remember about it was fans saying that Nascar was letting them get away with it. I never understood why Nascar would want - much less help - Johnson dominate.
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It was more of "cheatin Chad" bud. not Nascar letting them get away with it..And Jimmie has a horsehoe stuck up his ass.
 
KyBuownsyourbrain said:
Definitely, but what I also remember about it was fans saying that Nascar was letting them get away with it. I never understood why Nascar would want - much less help - Johnson dominate.
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The fans bitched about JJ and Chad for the same reason they bitch about the 78 team today.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
I would have a lot more respect if some folks just came out and said "I can't stand Toyota and want them to fail" because at least it would be honest as opposed to hiding behind someone's skirt and trying to frame the dislike in a disingenuous way.
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You just said it much better than me. Exactly. I have no problem with that. Actually, good for the sport. That's why I like Jack Roush. He just hates Toyota. I can handle that.
 
Revman said:
Stupid posts about how many revisions Toyota has had. All have been consistent with current product introductions--Gen 6 thinking. You know, stock car racing.....although there are many who scoff at that too. Maybe Chevy and Ford need tighter product cycles.....or are they hurting again in the cash department?
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maybe Nascar should have checked the cars twice this year like they have done in years past. And we wouldn't be having this conversation.;)
 
StandOnIt said:
It was more of "cheatin Chad" bud. not Nascar letting them get away with it..And Jimmie has a horsehoe stuck up his ass.
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All drivers have good and bad luck - ALL of them.

Johnson came to be, IMO, one of the calmest, coolest, smartest drivers we've seen in a long, long time. And let's face it - the guy can flat out wheel a race car.
 
you fellers have selective memory
Jimmie Johnson's Cheating is Ruining NASCAR
http://fourturns.blogspot.com/2013/07/jimmie-johnsons-cheating-is-ruining.html

Petitioning Mike Helton, President of the National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) NASCAR
REMOVE JIMMIE JOHNSON AND CHAD KNAUS FROM NASCAR
https://www.change.org/p/nascar-remove-jimmie-johnson-and-chad-knaus-from-nascar

Chad Knaus…The long sad history of cheating.
https://yotameister18.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/chad-knausthe-long-sad-history-of-cheating/


 
StandOnIt said:
maybe Nascar should have checked the cars twice this year like they have done in years past. And we wouldn't be having this conversation.;)
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Nascar is free to check the cars as many times as they wish or not at all. It doesn't change the fact that Ford and GM have been caught with their pants around their ankles and the fair remedy for them is to build something better.

StandOnIt said:
you fellers have selective memory
Jimmie Johnson's Cheating is Ruining NASCAR
http://fourturns.blogspot.com/2013/07/jimmie-johnsons-cheating-is-ruining.html

Petitioning Mike Helton, President of the National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) NASCAR
REMOVE JIMMIE JOHNSON AND CHAD KNAUS FROM NASCAR
https://www.change.org/p/nascar-remove-jimmie-johnson-and-chad-knaus-from-nascar

Chad Knaus…The long sad history of cheating.
https://yotameister18.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/chad-knausthe-long-sad-history-of-cheating/
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Fans bitching doesn't mean Nascar is being hurt anymore than then cheer leading means they are being helped.
 
something ain't right, Nascar didn't check the cars this year is the story and they always have. No changing or twisting that FACT. Ya can't fix an aero advantage if there is one if you don't check the cars. It ain't rocket science.
 
StandOnIt said:
you fellers have selective memory
Jimmie Johnson's Cheating is Ruining NASCAR
http://fourturns.blogspot.com/2013/07/jimmie-johnsons-cheating-is-ruining.html

Petitioning Mike Helton, President of the National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing (NASCAR) NASCAR
REMOVE JIMMIE JOHNSON AND CHAD KNAUS FROM NASCAR
https://www.change.org/p/nascar-remove-jimmie-johnson-and-chad-knaus-from-nascar

Chad Knaus…The long sad history of cheating.
https://yotameister18.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/chad-knausthe-long-sad-history-of-cheating/
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Careful. If Knaus happens to see stuff like this, the partitions may go back up. Keselowski would really melt down :)
 
StandOnIt said:
something ain't right, Nascar didn't check the cars this year is the story and they always have. No changing or twisting that FACT. Ya can't fix an aero advantage if there is one if you don't check the cars. It ain't rocket science.
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If they had checked the cars, it wouldn't have made any difference. Remember, NASCAR is in Toyota's pocket. BTW....Ford and Chevy have access to the numbers on the new Camry. Haven't heard anybody from those camps bitch. If you believe--and I know you don't--that the manufacturers have come together for the good of the sport, and Toyota has pulled something over on the other manufacturers, can you imagine the respect lost? I will tell you this--and you won't believe it--but how Toyota is perceived in this sport is EVERYTHING to them. There are numerous examples of this, but I won't bother--NASCAR is in Toyota's pocket.
 
Revman said:
You don't like Toyota. Your opinion is as biased as mine. Difference is that I am not preaching global NASCAR "truths." Nobody gave Toyota anything. Why should they give Chevy and Ford...errr, balancing "tweaks?" Because TRD did their job too well?
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Revman, you are assuming Hamlin is right and Keselowski is wrong, as discussed above in post #130. You might be right, might be wrong in that. None of us here knows, but I believe industry insiders have a pretty good idea on the topic. Parity has always been a contentious issue... and that is a global Nascar truth.
Skoalbandit33 said:
I would have a lot more respect if some folks just came out and said "I can't stand Toyota and want them to fail" because at least it would be honest as opposed to hiding behind someone's skirt and trying to frame the dislike in a disingenuous way.
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More gratuitous insults, seriously? How's the weather up there on that high horse?
 
If Toyota has an aero advantage it would be a result of building a better mousetrap no? If Nascar checked the cars and said that Toyota worked within parameters and had an aero advantage over its rivals it doesn't change the fact that the rivals need to get busy and build something better than Toyota currently uses. IMO it is awful to penalize the successful so the ill prepared can keep pace.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Revman, you are assuming Hamlin is right and Keselowski is wrong
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I don't think anybody knows what the hell Kez is saying.....doesn't matter....he just runs the mouth, and let's the people go. I truly don't know if he thinks Toyota is cheating or not... he probably doesn't either.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Revman, you are assuming Hamlin is right and Keselowski is wrong, as discussed above in post #130. You might be right, might be wrong in that. None of us here knows, but I believe industry insiders have a pretty good idea on the topic. Parity has always been a contentious issue... and that is a global Nascar truth.

More gratuitous insults, seriously? How's the weather up there on that high horse?
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Not so good as I separated a rib laughing about the comparison between Parks and Kaep so you got the last laugh. Other than that I can't understand why you prefer guaranteed results over equal opportunity.

Revman said:
I don't think anybody knows what the hell Kez is saying.....doesn't matter....he just runs the mouth, and let's the people go. I truly don't know if he thinks Toyota is cheating or not... he probably doesn't either.
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Roger Penske must cringe every time BKez opens his yap as he has had to distance himself from the Kez's self serving comments at least once this year.

Off to find the elusive double crested cormorant.....wish me luck and enjoy the peace and quiet in my absence.....:D
 
Revman said:
I don't think anybody knows what the hell Kez is saying.....doesn't matter....he just runs the mouth, and let's the people go. I truly don't know if he thinks Toyota is cheating or not... he probably doesn't either.
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He hasn't said a single word about Toyota cheating. He believes Toyota's approved "blank canvas" has more performance potential than Ford's does, following the mid-year change in Ford template enforcement. Other insiders on the record believe the same. That does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, just that collectively they didn't get it right.

I and most everybody else assumed the mid-year downturn in Ford performance came from Logano's rear skew violation at Richmond. It has lately emerged from Kez, Childers, and others that Ford's problem is from the template change... and this actually fits better with the few known facts about the Richmond deal. Remember, Kez was a lot faster than Logano at Richmond, and his car also went to the R&D Center teardown, and passed that inspection.
 
Revman said:
If they had checked the cars, it wouldn't have made any difference. Remember, NASCAR is in Toyota's pocket. BTW....Ford and Chevy have access to the numbers on the new Camry. Haven't heard anybody from those camps bitch. If you believe--and I know you don't--that the manufacturers have come together for the good of the sport, and Toyota has pulled something over on the other manufacturers, can you imagine the respect lost? I will tell you this--and you won't believe it--but how Toyota is perceived in this sport is EVERYTHING to them. There are numerous examples of this, but I won't bother--NASCAR is in Toyota's pocket.
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maybe you can get a job as a Toyota PR man or spin doctor. Putting words in others mouth's that weren't said. lends to a person's credibility

LewTheShoe said:
He hasn't said a single word about Toyota cheating. He believes Toyota's approved "blank canvas" has more performance potential than Ford's does, following the mid-year change in Ford template enforcement. Other insiders on the record believe the same. That does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, just that collectively they didn't get it right.

I and most everybody else assumed the mid-year downturn in Ford performance came from Logano's rear skew violation at Richmond. It has lately emerged from Kez, Childers, and others that Ford's problem is from the template change... and this actually fits better with the few known facts about the Richmond deal. Remember, Kez was a lot faster than Logano at Richmond, and his car also went to the R&D Center teardown, and passed that inspection.
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Nascar makes changes that don't make the public's headlines..like you can't do that. :)

Revman said:
If they had checked the cars, it wouldn't have made any difference.
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statements like this? How do you know unless all the cars were checked. Crystal ball? Goes to credibility.
 
LewTheShoe said:
He hasn't said a single word about Toyota cheating. He believes Toyota's approved "blank canvas" has more performance potential than Ford's does, following the mid-year change in Ford template enforcement. Other insiders on the record believe the same. That does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, just that collectively they didn't get it right.
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He knows what he has floated out there.
If he has an issue with Toyota's "performance potential," he should be jumping Ford's **** for signing off on the car.
Going out on a limb here, but I am guessing that those "insiders" are from Chevy and/or Ford. Come on man. Seriously.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, but I recall MWR's relationship with Toyota was much closer than RBs.

I still wonder how a team with RB's resources couldn't make it in Cup.
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I'm guessing the leadership was incompetent, and at the moment that idea seems to be bearing itself out w/ Red Bull's F1 program which has been slowly slipping since Mark Webber was driven to premature retirement c/o rampant mistreatment by management.

Supporting that argument on the NASCAR side was that it took them until 2010 to have two entries stable in the top 35, even with the influx of start-and-parks in 2009, the fact that they had three drivers in five years in the second entry (although more successful teams have had similar burn-n-churn *cough*Hendrick 25*cough*) and the fact that they seem to have assumed that NASCAR fans have any interest in mixing their liquor with energy drinks...
 
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Revman said:
You don't like Toyota. Your opinion is as biased as mine. Difference is that I am not preaching global NASCAR "truths." Nobody gave Toyota anything. Why should they give Chevy and Ford...errr, balancing "tweaks?" Because TRD did their job too well?......errr, in your words, "outspent" everybody, right? I respect your opinion--the context is the issue.
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The bully can fix this by leading every race like he did for 2 years :rolleyes:
 
LewTheShoe said:
He hasn't said a single word about Toyota cheating. He believes Toyota's approved "blank canvas" has more performance potential than Ford's does, following the mid-year change in Ford template enforcement. Other insiders on the record believe the same. That does not mean there was anything nefarious going on, just that collectively they didn't get it right.

I and most everybody else assumed the mid-year downturn in Ford performance came from Logano's rear skew violation at Richmond. It has lately emerged from Kez, Childers, and others that Ford's problem is from the template change... and this actually fits better with the few known facts about the Richmond deal. Remember, Kez was a lot faster than Logano at Richmond, and his car also went to the R&D Center teardown, and passed that inspection.
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This goes along with what i have been saying all along. I've never suggested that Toyota is cheating or even that they got something by NASCAR, but that something they did perhaps ended up working out a little better than expected, and due to the way the rules are currently enforced, the Ford and Chevy teams have basically no legal way to try to even the score during the season, and must wait until they build a new car over the off season. As I stated in an earlier post, this is the way Indy Car racing used to be. If you made the wrong chassis or engine choice during the off season, you could basically throw your whole season away, because you weren't going to make up the difference during year. If that scenario is OK with you, fine, but it's not with me. I think the teams should have more freedom to work on the cars and try to close the gap if they get a little behind. If you recall, the whole CONCEPT of common template bodies was that nobody would have an advantage aero wise, thus there was theoretically no REASON to build new bodies every year. Body changes were supposed to only be a function of keeping the cars looking like their showroom counterparts, NOT developing a competitive edge.
 
It's the first time since I started following NASCAR that all my friends have thrown in the towel on a season.Nascar no longer has the luxury of losing a manufacturer fan base,guys giving up and everything still being good.I know there's a race today but I've got something planned with the wife,and it doesn't bother me missing it.
 
darlingtonfan said:
It's the first time since I started following NASCAR that all my friends have thrown in the towel on a season.Nascar no longer has the luxury of losing a manufacturer fan base,guys giving up and everything still being good.I know there's a race today but I've got something planned with the wife,and it doesn't bother me missing it.
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I used to be part of a large group of people that followed Nascar and went to races and we watched races together and had parties and get togethers. That ended a long time ago and as far as I know I am the only one left that has any involvement in Nascar. I hope to piecemeal the race in around football today as I have to make a quick trip to Charlotte tomorrow and fly out first thing so if I don't see it today I doubt I will see it at all. If I don't get to see the race it won't present a problem.
 
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