Cup RACE thread --- Phoenix

StandOnIt said:
In retrospect, I wasn't and still not sold on the idea of the two different tire story that they ran at Phoenix. It might have brought more eyes to the race, maybe silenced some of the Phoenix haters.
Pretty sure Goodyear had already tested that tire to death or ones similar to that and they knew how the tire was going to work. Goodyear got a lot of air time with the change and TV had something to sell to the fans with the story.
I think an even softer tire would have worked better for tire management. Teams were able to drive it like they stole it for at least 60 laps with little if any fall off. It was a baby step in the right direction and better than nothing but too little IMO. They had maybe one actual tire failure besides the brake shoes exploding?
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I hate the stupid "option" tire crap and it did nothing to silence me as a Phoenix hater and it's not just because Chase had a mid-day. To me if you need to start pulling gimmicky stuff like option tires you know the racing sucks. I think a softer tire in general that wars more overall would make it better.
 
Revman said:
I hear you, and I agree about retirement. Having said that, he was in the moment, and in my opinion, it's the reaction in the moment that speaks to me rather than the post race PC stuff. I am glad that we are past the la la land clean racing narrative of last week....that was not real nor realistic. Mark Martin and Martin Truex Jr. with their one championship between them is evidence of what a "clean racing" initiative will get you. I was happy to see Bell do him dirty. I believe that Christopher is ready to be Champion now.
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I guess I need to see a replay. I did not think Bell was dirty at all. Maybe I missed something. I was honestly just glad the race was over. Hopefully next week will be better for Vegas has been the Larson show for a while.
 
I was a long way from "hating it". Having been around for awhile and knowing how ultra conservative they are, I was ready for the smoke show. The tire was a baby step in the right direction IMO. The pomp and circumstance was understandable in retrospect.
Much better than so many times they announce a "brand new softer compound" and they run the damn things for the whole stage with no fall off, fuel only or get two at the stage break and then they run half of the next stage before they pit for tires.
 
StandOnIt said:
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Maybe, just maybe, if Bell continues to dominate by winning a dozen or more races and then ships his pants in the season finale, NASCAR will finally realize that it's time to shelve their fabricated elimination format that determines what it calls the season champion.

How many times must Earnhardt turn over in his grave ?
 
pjmolo said:
Maybe, just maybe, if Bell continues to dominate by winning a dozen or more races and then ships his pants in the season finale, NASCAR will finally realize that it's time to shelve their fabricated elimination format that determines what it calls the season champion.

How many times must Earnhardt turn over in his grave ?
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My brain will never get over people telling me it is raining while peeing on my leg. It's way more believable with stick and ball, but laying it all on the line for one race in a sport as complicated as auto racing, it will never be genuine no matter how well they B.S. us.
 
StandOnIt said:
In retrospect, I wasn't and still not sold on the idea of the two different tire story that they ran at Phoenix. It might have brought more eyes to the race, maybe silenced some of the Phoenix haters.
Pretty sure Goodyear had already tested that tire to death or ones similar to that and they knew how the tire was going to work. Goodyear got a lot of air time with the change and TV had something to sell to the fans with the story.
I think an even softer tire would have worked better for tire management. Teams were able to drive it like they stole it for at least 60 laps with little if any fall off. It was a baby step in the right direction and better than nothing but too little IMO. They had maybe one actual tire failure besides the brake shoes exploding?
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I think it is asinine and hope its a one a done thing. When you have a driver/team that generally runs outside the top 25 drive through the entire field it makes the whole approach a joke. This kind of thing could lead to complete chaos. Yesterday with only a couple cars starting the race on option tires what if one of those cars had been starting up front? Easily they would have lapped more than half the field maybe up to the top ten. A teammates timely caution and now everyone is pretty much a lap down.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I hate the stupid "option" tire crap and it did nothing to silence me as a Phoenix hater and it's not just because Chase had a mid-day. To me if you need to start pulling gimmicky stuff like option tires you know the racing sucks. I think a softer tire in general that wars more overall would make it better.
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Be careful, I was told people who call NASCAR out with this "gimmicky" stuff is ridiculously childish and immature. :rolleyes:
 
DIDIT said:
I think it is asinine and hope its a one a done thing. When you have a driver/team that generally runs outside the top 25 drive through the entire field it makes the whole approach a joke. This kind of thing could lead to complete chaos. Yesterday with only a couple cars starting the race on option tires what if one of those cars had been starting up front? Easily they would have lapped more than half the field maybe up to the top ten. A teammates timely caution and now everyone is pretty much a lap down.
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I don't know if it was Nascar's absolute brilliance or a lucky accident that teams weren't given more of the option tires to play with because as you said, that is exactly what would have happened. The early users of the option tires were used in desperation and the lack of more option tires sealed their fates when they had none when they needed them later.
 
DIDIT said:
Yesterday with only a couple cars starting the race on option tires what if one of those cars had been starting up front? Easily they would have lapped more than half the field maybe up to the top ten.
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Then the other cars will put on the optional tires and unlap themselves. All teams have access to the same mix of tire sets.

Yes, Preece made it to second or third by the end of the first stage. Without unlimited option tires, he couldn't stay there when other used theirs and he wound up around 20th. The early charge got him stage points but we can't tell how much difference they made to his final position.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a softer tire overall at all tracks. I posted yesterday to bring only the softer option to Phoenix in the fall and leave the harder primary in the warehouse. If softer tires can't be made available for an entire race, I'll take the mix of tires we saw yesterday over having only the cinder blocks Goodyear has been bringing for the NextGen.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Then the other cars will put on the optional tires and unlap themselves. All teams have access to the same mix of tire sets.

Yes, Preece made it to second or third by the end of the first stage. Without unlimited option tires, he couldn't stay there when other used theirs and he wound up around 20th. The early charge got him stage points but we can't tell how much difference they made to his final position.

Personally, I'd prefer to see a softer tire overall at all tracks. I posted yesterday to bring only the softer option to Phoenix in the fall and leave the harder primary in the warehouse. If softer tires can't be made available for an entire race, I'll take the mix of tires we saw yesterday over having only the cinder blocks Goodyear has been bringing for the NextGen.
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Yes, no cinder blocks...
Softer tires = good racing in my book too. In my opinion unlike F1, NASCAR has too many cautions which includes stage breaks to allow the tire differences to organically play out. The speed was too radically different and in just a matter of hours those teams got pretty good at managing those option tires to get the maximum number of laps. A few more races like this and who knows what the "engineers" might come up with. As I think about it, another aspect is its taking more away from the driver.
 
It was mentioned a couple of times when they said that Nascar drivers can run every lap like it is their last with the tires Goodyear gives them. It completely takes out tire management out of the equation. It was much worse 5 years ago and only slightly better now days as they creep slowly to softer tires. To me it is one of the keys to better racing. Softer tires would add another dimension to the racing I think.
 
StandOnIt said:
It was mentioned a couple of times when they said that Nascar drivers can run every lap like it is their last with the tires Goodyear gives them. It completely takes out tire management out of the equation. It was much worse 5 years ago and only slightly better now days as they creep slowly to softer tires. To me it is one of the keys to better racing. Softer tires would add another dimension to the racing I think.
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I understand Goodyear wants to demonstrate durability by providing (boring) rocks that never wear out. Providing a seperate soft tire imo allows them to demonstrate durability while also providing a very fast tire that wears. Tire wear is critical for comers and goers, one of the things that makes racing great imo.

I hope they continue with bringing two compounds for most every race.
 
StandOnIt said:
It was mentioned a couple of times when they said that Nascar drivers can run every lap like it is their last with the tires Goodyear gives them. It completely takes out tire management out of the equation. It was much worse 5 years ago and only slightly better now days as they creep slowly to softer tires. To me it is one of the keys to better racing. Softer tires would add another dimension to the racing I think.
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It also doesn't help that the cars don't have as much horsepower. Way too easy to drive and doesn't affect the tires as much.
 
Marcingak said:
It also doesn't help that the cars don't have as much horsepower. Way too easy to drive and doesn't affect the tires as much.
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Certainly would help in that area for sure. If you can't put the power down because you are burning the tires off or you can't just bomb into the corner and slam on your brakes it would make it more interesting IMO.
 
Marcingak said:
It also doesn't help that the cars don't have as much horsepower. Way too easy to drive and doesn't affect the tires as much.
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That may be true and I certainly do not know, I do not care for lower HP in a premium series like Cup.

But lower HP demands more momentum and the pressure to maintain the speeds through the corners. Aside from exiting the corners the demands on the tires may be just as much, if not more especially on the entries.
 
Run better through the whole race, that's why they give them out. It's rewarding whole race consistency not just finish consistency. It's very clear and simple unless you chose to act like it isn't.
 
kkfan91 said:
Run better through the whole race, that's why they give them out. It's rewarding whole race consistency not just finish consistency. It's very clear and simple unless you chose to act like it isn't.
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I get the first part, but it isn't very simple and clear at all. Most people look at that and go Wha??
 
StandOnIt said:
There is no way in hell a person can look at that scoring sheet and think that Byron is ahead in points. That is the problem.
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Agreed. Bell has been the best driver all season, some up above say it’s the point system that’s clearly stated, and that’s why Byron is the points leader. Well just because it’s clear and it’s the point system used, doesn’t make it a good point system.
 
I think it’s more than it’s being made out to be imo, but just using the eye test Bell is the best so far this season. 4 races in, not a big sample size but enough to where anyone competent that has watched this series for a while can confidently say “oh CBell is going to be there all year long.” I do expect others to challenge him as the year goes on mainly the 5,9,45, 22 and 12. I’m sure I’m forgetting some obvious ones there, point is yea Bell has looked great but it’s still so early still.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
I think it’s more than it’s being made out to be imo, but just using the eye test Bell is the best so far this season. 4 races in, not a big sample size but enough to where anyone competent that has watched this series for a while can confidently say “oh CBell is going to be there all year long.” I do expect others to challenge him as the year goes on mainly the 5,9,45, 22 and 12. I’m sure I’m forgetting some obvious ones there, point is yea Bell has looked great but it’s still so early still.
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The hype is stupid. This run Bell is on is a combination of confidence and the 20 team operating at Penitentiary levels. I think that maybe Christopher has taken another small step, and a rivalry with Larson has taken another step to legitimacy rather than hacks looking for storylines. Will Bell be there all year? He has been there for the last three, so, yeah. Will he win 10 races? Who knows? Who cares? Will he have a rough patch? Yes. Long season. The thing about Bell that is really interesting is that he is clutch. I like that.....and he has the best crew chief in the business. If Adam can win a championship with Bell, he is a lock for the Hall or the Hall has no meaning....which it might not.
 
Revman said:
Is any point system perfect? Is this close enough? Yeah.
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No, it's not. A race winner should get more points for the race than everyone else who competed, period. Playoff points and round resets complicate the system needlessly, doing nothing that couldn't be accomplished by rebalancing the race points awards more heavily to the top of the finishing order.
 
Revman said:
The hype is stupid. This run Bell is on is a combination of confidence and the 20 team operating at Penitentiary levels. I think that maybe Christopher has taken another small step, and a rivalry with Larson has taken another step to legitimacy rather than hacks looking for storylines. Will Bell be there all year? He has been there for the last three, so, yeah. Will he win 10 races? Who knows? Who cares? Will he have a rough patch? Yes. Long season. The thing about Bell that is really interesting is that he is clutch. I like that.....and he has the best crew chief in the business. If Adam can win a championship with Bell, he is a lock for the Hall or the Hall has no meaning....which it might not.
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I can totally buy what you're selling here. I think Bell will be there all year, but they've hit on something early. There's so many Ebbs and Flows to a season this long, plus the playoffs are a huge curveball you just never know now. Hopefully he racks up the wins and playoff points, and Larson will get hot soon to make it a awesome rivalry. This is the rivalry the sport needs imo, Bell vs Larson... JGR vs Hendrick...Your Preacher vs Jeffy, Chadly, The Felon and the Rest of the Chain Gang.
 
pjmolo said:
Maybe, just maybe, if Bell continues to dominate by winning a dozen or more races and then ships his pants in the season finale, NASCAR will finally realize that it's time to shelve their fabricated elimination format that determines what it calls the season champion.

How many times must Earnhardt turn over in his grave ?
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No they'll just double down on it as "Game 7 moment anyone can win the championship!"
 
So they say Byron is ahead in the standings. It sure would make it easier to stomach if the score sheet showed how that was possible in simple terms any fan could read. We all know it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference anyhow, they are both going to be in the "playoffs" because of the win and you are in jackpot. The whole thing is a bunch of gimmicky nonsense.
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Chase Fan 79 said:
Anyone hear Denny's radio after the race? He was pissed he lost which I like but then it sounded like he said something about Bell being a "---- little s---." I could not make out the first word but man does that suck. I have defended Denny a lot and passion is one thing but I can't believe he would say something like that on the radio.
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He didn’t say anything about Bell.

 
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