23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

StandOnIt said:
It's been said that many of the lower tier teams in Nascar are doing just fine with the 12 million.
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"The bottom feeders who can't win haven't gone out of business, so what's the big deal? Just ignore the one of those teams suing NASCAR."
 
wi_racefan said:
Yeah having to pay almost 6 mil a year for an alliance isn't on nascar
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Yep. If you want to talk about money, lets get the OEM's involved also and what they are charging for their "participation" that in turn forces the car owners to charge their affiliates. 23XI blundered into the whole thing thinking they were going to be a big dog but they aren't the Yotas chosen one.
 
So far the farce of looking into the books has been entertaining. Front Rows claim of losing money forever when asked few questions shows he made millions selling charters and when recently questioned why if he was losing money why did he just recently buy another. Jenkins sighs and says someday I hoped it would get better lol. He charged a Truck driver 1.5 million dollars for the privilege of driving one of his trucks, but shows a big loss in the Truck series.

The sham is nobody is going into anybodies books and they are taking everybody's word for their creative bookkeeping.
 
Revman said:
You are clear that this is just Denny kind of trolling college football fans, right? He really doesn't care. You know this, right?
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I didn’t stop to think what Denny was doing actually. I was just super happy that Hoosiers were able to win a huge game!
 
Some interesting things from the tear down.

- sounds like Jeff Gordon was upset with Polk at the end of negotiations and called him "delusional"
- theres nothing in the agreement that requires nascar to give everyone the same deal. I guess smaller teams were holding out, but then saw what bigger teams signed and signed as well.
 
AlTerego said:
I didn’t stop to think what Denny was doing actually. I was just super happy that Hoosiers were able to win a huge game!
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Fair. It will be interesting to see if they can back it up in the playoff. They are a very good football team, and I think it would be amazing if they stuck it up Ohio State's big NIL ass another time.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Seriously? I hadn't heard that. Manufacturers are flocking to IMSA and WEC.
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My gut. WE love the connectedness to the consumer side, and the competition model. Lots of money flowing into that program. The GR GT will take it to the next level. WE also love the number of OEMs competing.
 
StandOnIt said:
Sure it does, but like Kenny Schrader says. Drivers think they have a say in how things go in the sport. But they could get rid of all the drivers and in a short time they would have 32 drivers more. Car owners are a different story.
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That makes no sense. NASCAR prides itself on being a driver-centric series, and you can just throw them all away....interesting.....and why do you think it would be so hard to get car owners? Isn't that what this case is about?
 
wi_racefan said:
To me it seems that the whole plan was to eventually push JGR out as the Toyota top dog
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Where are you getting this? I don't know that I completely agree, but I do think that Legacy changes the Toyota game, and David Wilson had referenced building their portfolio before he retired. The Next Gen changed OUR approach for all eggs in one basket to diversifying OUR chances.
 
Revman said:
Where are you getting this? I don't know that I completely agree, but I do think that Legacy changes the Toyota game, and David Wilson had referenced building their portfolio before he retired. The Next Gen changed OUR approach for all eggs in one basket to diversifying OUR chances.
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Yeah Legacy diversified alright, they leased their charter to RFK.
BTW did you catch the testimony where on the subject of broke teams, Nascar brought up preacher Joe doubling the affiliate fee for Furniture Row?
 
Is the creative bookkeeping a statement about NASCAR paying the France Family Trust $400 million over the last 3 years? I'm confused.
 
wi_racefan said:
No they seem pretty open about that. Teams just say they're losing money, but won't show where its being spent
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Well, the teams that aren't the suing ones probably don't want to have a full audit of their books. I don't see where it is that NASCAR actually opened the books on how much of that $400 million gets paid in taxes related to NASCAR and what that even entails.
 
rd45usa said:
Phelps stated the Trust was used for paying taxes. Stated over 75% was used to pay taxes on an S-Corporation.
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So that would mean that the France family still pocketed ~$100 million in the last 3 years from nothing other than payments made by NASCAR to their trust. That also doesn't even cover if the taxes paid had any obvious gain for them like that it covered taxes related to their use of NASCAR private jets or whatever. Also: a statement, even under oath, isn't the same as an audit. So we aren't doing a thing where we take NASCAR's word for it under oath but claim the team owners are lying under oath, right? Right?
 
On Trust funds:
Contributions made to a trust are generally not subject to income taxes because the individual who contributes the funds has already paid taxes on that money, and the IRS considers taxing it again to be double taxation. The trust itself does not pay income taxes on the contributions themselves, but it may be responsible for taxes on income generated by the assets held within the trust. For example, interest income that the trust holds and does not distribute by year-end is taxable to the trust, while distributed interest income is taxable to the beneficiary who receives it. Similarly, capital gains earned on trust assets are taxable either to the trust or to the beneficiary, depending on whether they are distributed. The source of the contribution—whether from the trust's income or its principal (corpus)—also affects tax treatment, with distributions from principal typically not being taxable to the recipient.
 
virtualbalboa said:
So that would mean that the France family still pocketed ~$100 million in the last 3 years from nothing other than payments made by NASCAR to their trust. That also doesn't even cover if the taxes paid had any obvious gain for them like that it covered taxes related to their use of NASCAR private jets or whatever. Also: a statement, even under oath, isn't the same as an audit. So we aren't doing a thing where we take NASCAR's word for it under oath but claim the team owners are lying under oath, right? Right?
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I think both sides are holding back, but IMO NASCAR's finances have been more open than the teams. Even FRM admitted that's their loses dont include gains from selling/leasing charters and somehow the truck team was thrown in that as well.
 
virtualbalboa said:
So that would mean that the France family still pocketed ~$100 million in the last 3 years from nothing other than payments made by NASCAR to their trust. That also doesn't even cover if the taxes paid had any obvious gain for them like that it covered taxes related to their use of NASCAR private jets or whatever. Also: a statement, even under oath, isn't the same as an audit. So we aren't doing a thing where we take NASCAR's word for it under oath but claim the team owners are lying under oath, right? Right?
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You are getting close. I posted this previously.

The sham is nobody is going into anybodies books and they are taking everybody's word for their creative bookkeeping.
 
rd45usa said:
Contributions made to a trust are generally not subject to income taxes because the individual who contributes the funds has already paid taxes on that money, and the IRS considers taxing it again to be double taxation.
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Correct. Of course, there are no taxes paid on this money. They're being used to pay taxes...in part.

rd45usa said:
The trust itself does not pay income taxes on the contributions themselves, but it may be responsible for taxes on income generated by the assets held within the trust.
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NASCAR is held within the trust.

rd45usa said:
For example, interest income that the trust holds and does not distribute by year-end is taxable to the trust,
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Which is why my wife gets a check every year now that her paternal grandmother is dead. Also means the France family gets some nice annual distributions.
rd45usa said:
Similarly, capital gains earned on trust assets are taxable either to the trust or to the beneficiary, depending on whether they are distributed.
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What capital gains would NASCAR have again for the trustees? NASCAR as far as I know doesn't have a huge investment portfolio, though it would be funny to find out it does. It does have land and it did sell land recently. The trust would need to ensure there would be funds available to pay for the taxes from the income derived from selling Fontana. Taking the distributions the Trust receives from running races to pay for the taxes on the income the France family derived selling their California racetrack is probably legal but kinda hard to see how that benefits the series or teams or me. Seems like it does a great job serving the France family to get very wealthy.

rd45usa said:
The source of the contribution—whether from the trust's income or its principal (corpus)—also affects tax treatment, with distributions from principal typically not being taxable to the recipient.
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Well, at least we know the source here.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think both sides are holding back, but IMO NASCAR's finances have been more open than the teams. Even FRM admitted that's their loses dont include gains from selling/leasing charters and somehow the truck team was thrown in that as well.
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I think they're about equivalent in terms of the amount of detail both have put forth. In terms of whether or not they should include gains from selling/leasing charters: you can't participate sustainably in the series if you sell all your charters which has already been effectively admitted by NASCAR itself. So the fact that they can sell the charters is only valuable in a liquidation but not helpful at all in determining the operating costs of a race team in Cup.
 
Just as a reminder to those pointing at how much NASCAR paid in taxes: they made over $600 million dollars in revenue in the last two years alone. The cost of the payments to the trust is an expense as shown on the NASCAR books, with the trust then paying 75% of that sum in taxes. That's another $100 million we're discussing in ADDITION to the $600+ million NASCAR admits it made in 2023 and 2024. The entity which primarily benefits from this is the France Family and the members of the trust.
 
LewTheShoe said:
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His memory was pretty good here.

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