23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

virtualbalboa said:
Are you claiming this is representative of ownership in the series? Yesterday Jim France testified that the series is owned by two entities: the France Family Trust and the Betty Jane France Descendants Trust. That's who owns NASCAR.

I have more say in what happens for my role than I did when I was three levels below this. That doesn't mean I own Michigan State University.



"Bend to the team owners" in what way that is negative to you or I?
Click to expand...
Team owners are the main obstacle to making changes to the car to make competition better.
 
Formerjackman said:
If the news story I read (with quotes) is accurate, the testimony yesterday from the NASCAR side was EXTREMELY unimpressive. If they think that performance is going to win over jurors, they may get a rude awakening.
Click to expand...
We ultimately don't know what the jurors are thinking when the trial ends, and we also really haven't gotten to the meat and potatoes of the defense's case. That said, the defense is also likely limited in their options. Jim France basically testified yesterday that it was his way or the highway and that's why we're here. His argument then rests on his way being legally allowable from the perspective of a chief executive gets to make any decision he wants for his firm (this is not true but he may want to try and make it that way in higher courts) or that he can prove his way is the best way by trying to use Penske to invoke the CART/IRL split's effects on that sport.

If NASCAR wins this trial, it probably won't "save stock car racing" because this trial has already exposed it's soft underbelly and litany of failings. It might, however, have some wild effects permitting of companies to control their employees and any independent contractors in a way that is extremely illegal now.
 
wi_racefan said:
Team owners are the main obstacle to making changes to the car to make competition better.
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with forcing the France family out of NASCAR, which is what you're contending evergreen charters would lead to.
 
virtualbalboa said:
We ultimately don't know what the jurors are thinking when the trial ends, and we also really haven't gotten to the meat and potatoes of the defense's case. That said, the defense is also likely limited in their options. Jim France basically testified yesterday that it was his way or the highway and that's why we're here. His argument then rests on his way being legally allowable from the perspective of a chief executive gets to make any decision he wants for his firm (this is not true but he may want to try and make it that way in higher courts) or that he can prove his way is the best way by trying to use Penske to invoke the CART/IRL split's effects on that sport.

If NASCAR wins this trial, it probably won't "save stock car racing" because this trial has already exposed it's soft underbelly and litany of failings. It might, however, have some wild effects permitting of companies to control their employees and any independent contractors in a way that is extremely illegal now.
Click to expand...
No, we don't know, but as a general rule, civil trial juries tend to lean hard against the party perceived to hold the power and side with the " underdog". That's how we end up with some of these absolutely absurd punitive damages results. If NASCAR isn't careful, they are going to burn up any potential benefit of the doubt they have going for them.
 
rd45usa said:
Wouldn't it be funny if BF has been running the show behind the curtain this whole time. He was put on indefinite suspension with pay. JF was put in place to be a post turtle. 😂😂
Click to expand...
Brian pretty much asserted on The Dale Jr. download that he was still heavily involved, so you may not actually be all that far off.
 
wi_racefan said:
The problem with permanent charters is you continue to hand power away. Eventually you hand enough power away you get pushed out of your own business
Click to expand...
That's the old 'slippery slope' argument. No, giving an inch doesn't mean you have to give a mile. Just because Keikhaefer couldn't hold a redrawn lines doesn't mean no one else can adapt to a new situation.
 
Conover said:
NASCAR SHOULD HAVE COMPLETED THE SETTLEMENT DURING TALKS PRIOR TO TRIAL. It appeared those would have resulted in “evergreen” charters and payment of the plantiff’s legal fees. Maybe they wanted something else, but that would be a reasonable outcome at this point.
Click to expand...
This, as I've said almost all along. And NASCAR might have been able to negotiate the legal fees.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
That's the old 'slippery slope' argument. No, giving an inch doesn't mean you have to give a mile. Just because Keikhaefer couldn't hold a redrawn lines doesn't mean no one else can adapt to a new situation.
Click to expand...
It clearly shows they already don't have the power they once had.
 
rd45usa said:
That is the most outspoken I think I have ever heard Jr. and Kelley being about Nascar.
Click to expand...
While I have great respect for Jr, he be salty about charters BECAUSE he screwed up and didn't buy one when they were 2 million. They got priced out long time ago. Jr Motorsports will never be a full time Cup team unless they merge with a team that already has a charter. I get why they don't want to "spend" 45 million on something that could overnight be worth absolutely nothing. That was the point Kelly was making. So that is the crux of his objection. IMO he doesn't understand the point Childress was making about teams being worth 10 cents on the dollar. THAT was the whole point in the original reason for charters. Long term teams that got auctioned off for yard sale prices made the rest quite uncomfortable.

I know lots made of guaranteed starting positions. Did they NOT already have that before charters? You know, race full time, you earn enough points to get a guaranteed starting position. He wants "the charter money" to get rolled into the purse. Problem is, the charters are much like bitcoin & that stuff: fictional/imaginary. They are just a piece of paper. That money doesn't really exist. He's theorizing the teams "win" more money and that makes it all better when you retire and sell your lifetime investment for 98K dollhairs. The thing you spent 900K on.

Basically racing has gotten so expensive it HAS to be run like a business. If losing money, or maybe stupidly investing it is desirable...I don't know how that works out at tax time? Believe IRS has rules against that kind of stuff. I lost my thought process...watching Eric O diaging a Spark no-start. Brain is losing ability to do more than one thing...a month?
 
StandOnIt said:
The charter system was put in place mainly to give teams a guaranteed starting spot so they could sell that to sponsors who wanted to invest in the team. An ancillary purpose was to get rid of field fillers and the numerous start and parks because of a performance clause was in the original charters also. .
Here comes a wealthy stick n baller who Hamlin brought in who dumps a ton of money into his teams, building etc. He looks at how much he is not making one day and somebody, who knows who comes up with the idea of franchises, just like stick n ball. So here we are.
Click to expand...

People were talking about the idea of “franchises” in NASCAR twenty years ago. I remember Ray Evernham being a proponent of it. Jordan didn’t invent the idea.
 
wi_racefan said:
It clearly shows they already don't have the power they once had.
Click to expand...
It doesn't show that the power they have isn't sufficient to successfully manage several series of competition. It doesn't show they'll have to cede more.

Who selects tracks and makes schedules? Who determines payouts? Who makes the rules, enforces them, levies penalties? Who approves sponsors? Who owns half the tracks? Who negotiates media contracts? Who would continue to control charter sales and transfers? NASCAR, not the teams.

Tell me how turning over the charters would require handing over any of those (and whatever else I missed).
 
StandOnIt said:
Yep. If you want to talk about money, lets get the OEM's involved also and what they are charging for their "participation" that in turn forces the car owners to charge their affiliates. 23XI blundered into the whole thing thinking they were going to be a big dog but they aren't the Yotas chosen one.
Click to expand...
Without the OEMs, you have nothing. Interesting that you are shedding a tear for the owners when you have scorched JGR over the Barney deal forever. You flip/flop more than the pancakes I made this morning.
 
wi_racefan said:
It clearly shows they already don't have the power they once had.
Click to expand...
When things were good and the gravy train was rolling, there were 50 cars showing up every week and while people knew failure and bankruptcy were real options, they weren't concerned about it because the potential was so great. The 2/3s of fans from 2005 leaving in 20 years has damaged this potential. Furniture Row didn't just leave because it was expensive to be in Cup, but because it was expensive RELATIVE TO THE RETURN IN EXPOSURE DUE TO THE DECREASE OF POPULARITY.

That decrease in popularity has led teams to cut costs and request additional cost cutting measures from NASCAR. NASCAR has obliged because NASCAR is the sanctioning body who controls all of this. Literally, it is their job. They exist only to function in this way. If you want the teams to come to the table and present sponsors for events and you want the teams to come to a conclusion about how to limit spending then what is NASCAR's function? What do they do other than extract rents from the teams in relation to things the family did generations ago?
 
wi_racefan said:
So you disagree that owners have been given more and more say in how things are now run than 20 years ago? I can see where Nascar is coming from. Once you make them permanent you have to bend to the team owners because now you've made a contract that you have to allow them to race. Agree or disagree, but thats where the erosion of power begins.
Click to expand...
It's like corporate welfare to coin a phrase. Nascar is paying them. Paying them to race. They get paid win or lose as it is and it gets worse if they have permanent franchises.
What ever happened to performance based winning? You win races, get top 5's etc. win money $$$.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's like corporate welfare to coin a phrase. Nascar is paying them. Paying them to race.
Click to expand...
There's no race without race cars. If they kick all the teams to the curb and race the cars themselves, NASCAR is still paying to have cars race. That's literally the point of their business.
 
virtualbalboa said:
There's no race without race cars. If they kick all the teams to the curb and race the cars themselves, NASCAR is still paying to have cars race. That's literally the point of their business.
Click to expand...
The system needs reworking. Teams need a base to exist, but the money needs to come with top 20 and higher finishes. Make winning great again. :p
 
StandOnIt said:
The system needs reworking. Teams need a base to exist, but the money needs to come with top 20 and higher finishes. Make winning great again. :p
Click to expand...
Well, let Jim France know that.

I'll note that I've put on the Gluck/Bianchi breakdown of the trial yesterday and it's pretty amusing to hear. Kessler did bring up that the taxes paid from the Trust were about their benefit; it paid the capital gains tax on the Fontana sale and in turn the money from the Fontana sale was used to pay off the loan NASCAR had made to "acquire" ISC. All of this of course was owned by the Frances. None of it represents reinvestment in the sport.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's like corporate welfare to coin a phrase. Nascar is paying them. Paying them to race. They get paid win or lose as it is and it gets worse if they have permanent franchises.
What ever happened to performance based winning? You win races, get top 5's etc. win money $$$.
Click to expand...

The teams are paying into it, don't kid yourself. They pay for fuel and tires, which NASCAR gets a kickback from. They pay inspection fees. They have to buy licenses. They now have to buy parts from certain places.

If you want to compete in the Daytona 500, you're going to spend over a half million dollars when you factor in everything before you ever open up the back door of your hauler.
 
Spotter22 said:
How many race teams built the very sport you are now shiiiting on? I'll wait right here.
Click to expand...
I’ll bet more people know the names, Petty, Pearson, Gordon, Johnson, Busch, Harvick, etc. than they do France.
Nobody ever tuned in to watch Jim France. He inherited NASCAR and everything that comes from it.
 
HoneyBadger said:
The teams are paying into it, don't kid yourself. They pay for fuel and tires, which NASCAR gets a kickback from. They pay inspection fees. They have to buy licenses. They now have to buy parts from certain places.

If you want to compete in the Daytona 500, you're going to spend over a half million dollars when you factor in everything before you ever open up the back door of your hauler.
Click to expand...
Yeah and so what. You pay that in some form or other in any series you race in. I think the teams need a better payout system but they don't need the calamity of stick and ball franchises. The racing community is not going to get the public to pony up the money that sustains stick n ball to help pay for the racing industry.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah and so what. You pay that in some form or other in any series you race in. I think the teams need a better payout system but they don't need the calamity of stick and ball franchises. The racing community is not going to get the public to pony up the money that sustains stick n ball to help pay for the racing industry.
Click to expand...
I mean, honestly, if what you want to watch are street stocks, then watch street stocks. But asking Cup teams to operate like they're running street stocks at the local 1/4 mile oval in terms of costs is ridiculous. These are massive multimillion dollar enterprises that intend to represent major corporations. They're not getting there with zero guaranteed money. And for f's sake, you and I both know that every single national touring series worth a damn provides tow money and pit passes to teams at MINIMUM. Why are you insulting my and your own intelligence that way?
 
virtualbalboa said:
I mean, honestly, if what you want to watch are street stocks, then watch street stocks. But asking Cup teams to operate like they're running street stocks at the local 1/4 mile oval in terms of costs is ridiculous. These are massive multimillion dollar enterprises that intend to represent major corporations. They're not getting there with zero guaranteed money. And for f's sake, you and I both know that every single national touring series worth a damn provides tow money and pit passes to teams at MINIMUM. Why are you insulting my and your own intelligence that way?
Click to expand...
Tell me who is talking about racing without guaranteed money? They are getting it now. Some teams are obviously doing fine and have for years despite their creative book keeping. But there should be larger bonuses paid for say top 20 and better.
 
StandOnIt said:
I think the teams need a better payout system but they don't need the calamity of stick and ball franchises. The racing community is not going to get the public to pony up the money that sustains stick n ball to help pay for the racing industry
Click to expand...
How does making the charters permanent lead to taxpayers subsidizing race teams? No one in the food chain has taxing authority. The team shops aren't scattered atound the country in individual cities trying to leverage their presence for varios reasons. Charlotte has so many teams that it doesn't need to support them directly or worry about the industry relocating.
 
As I sit here at the Charlotte airport with over an hour before my connection boards, half-decent kung pao chicken and fried rice already gone. No sign of Denny or the Frances, maybe they don't need my deposition after all?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
How does making the charters permanent lead to taxpayers subsidizing race teams? No one in the food chain has taxing authority. The team shops aren't scattered atound the country in individual cities trying to leverage their presence for varios reasons. Charlotte has so many teams that it doesn't need to support them directly or worry about the industry relocating.
Click to expand...
It pretty much locks out anybody else from coming into the sport. Say a good O'reilly team wants to move to cup? Do you have a clue what franchises would welcome that? What lower team would be able to pony up 150 million to try?
 
StandOnIt said:
It pretty much locks out anybody else from coming into the sport. Say a good O'reilly team wants to move to cup? Do you have a clue what franchises would welcome that? What lower team would be able to pony up 150 million to try?
Click to expand...
Nothing in here about taxpayers subsidizing race teams which it shouldn't; that isn't a real thing.

To your larger point: NASCAR could have put together way bigger purses to try and lure in race teams from all over to enter. They didn't. They have, however, paid over $100 million dollars each year to the France Family Trust which is then distributed amongst the family members each year.
 
StandOnIt said:
What lower team would be able to pony up 150 million to try?
Click to expand...
First, I think that ship sailed a couole of years ago. If Jr. and Kelley can't afford to get in, nobody else can either.

Second, why do you see permanence as leading to a 1000% increase in charter value?

Thanks.
 
StandOnIt said:
It pretty much locks out anybody else from coming into the sport. Say a good O'reilly team wants to move to cup? Do you have a clue what franchises would welcome that? What lower team would be able to pony up 150 million to try?
Click to expand...

We're pretty much there as it is, and have been for a couple decades.

A bunch of these teams are backed by investment firms, or are kept afloat by profitable business ventures.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
First, I think that ship sailed a couole of years ago. If Jr. and Kelley can't afford to get in, nobody else can either.

Second, why do you see permanence as leading to a 1000% increase in charter value?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
You need to keep up with the trial. Those are the figures permanent charters/franchises are floating around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom