Race Team Alliance Appreciation Thread

It would be interesting to know NASCAR's endgame with its interest in owning charters. I don't think they just woke up one morning and decided it would be cool to suddenly own some race team(s).

To me, it seems more like a move to liquidate the strength of the already existing Charter teams. It seems logical, at least to me, that all of those future NASCAR-owned Charters would be absolute "yes" men during any future RTA negotiations with NASCAR..

It is especially interesting with the idea of limiting teams to only three Charters and pairing that with allowing NASCAR to own some Charters themselves. How could it be seen as anything less than an in your face power play.

I would be more concerned about NASCAR's ability to own some Charters than I would be about the idea of teams being limited to three Charters.
Regardless of one's thoughts on a team owning three of four Charters rule, I think objective arguments could be made about the pros and cons of either policy. In contrast, NASCAR's desire to become a Charters owner itself is really over the top.

Obviously, all of the above is just my opinion; your mileage may vary.
 
Some additional comments, not as directly related but still applicable (I think).
I also want to qualify my comments by admitting that I do not know or understand all of the variables and the unintended consequences of what is happening with the current NASCAR/RTA power struggle. But maybe in heat of the current battle, the real players do not know either. I do think some thought needs to go into the overall big picture.

I appreciate the Charters for giving the owners more security, and that was long overdue. I just hope it doesn't eventually turn NASCAR into something like F1 with its ability to shut out outsiders like Andretti. It's a pipe dream, but I want NASCAR to remain open enough for anyone crazy enough to enter a car into a race as long as they are doing it with a qualified driver and crew.
If the conditions ever improve enough to consistently see 40-plus entries per race or whatever is needed to force bumping, I would want to see those extra four spots remain open and not be guaranteed to a Charter team.

I don’t like seeing a TV deal with only nine of the races on over-the-air TV channels, and I have to wonder if that is really good for the future. If I were a sponsor, I wouldn’t like the more limited visibility, and that limitation impacts the owners more than NASCAR itself. I don’t mind paying for cable or satellite to see the races, and I have since the ’80s, but I don’t plan on buying an additional buffet of streaming services to see every race.
 
Ain't nobody going nowhere. Business as usual is the story of the day. Don't buy into the poor mouthing these multi multi millionaires bitch about. They all make Bank all the time or they would not do this. The charters are the carrot and the string to the carrot is held by NASCAR. You say yeah, but what about Stewart Haas
getting out. They have lost interest in the sport,, Gene is a money person with multinational businesses, Tony lost interest and got married wants a family and has 3 championships under his belt, going into Top FUEL NHRA competition is his current passion along with the growing family and the charters are worth a sh*t ton of money. Smart move if you ask me.
 
sdj said:
Ain't nobody going nowhere. Business as usual is the story of the day. Don't buy into the poor mouthing these multi multi millionaires bitch about. They all make Bank all the time or they would not do this. The charters are the carrot and the string to the carrot is held by NASCAR. You say yeah, but what about Stewart Haas
getting out. They have lost interest in the sport,, Gene is a money person with multinational businesses, Tony lost interest and got married wants a family and has 3 championships under his belt, going into Top FUEL NHRA competition is his current passion along with the growing family and the charters are worth a sh*t ton of money. Smart move if you ask me.
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Can you imagine the crying, whining and gnashing of teeth by the deathbedders (Nascar's fault) If there weren't charters to sell? lol.
 
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Jimbo Slice said:
^How would they enforce that? Players' salaries are one thing, but trying to keep track of money spent on every nut and bolt seems unrealistic.
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Have to find some way because just giving them more money will in no way make teams profitable. Whenever nascar has saved them money in the past they just find a way to spend it somewhere else.

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Cost controls represents a negotiation ploy by NASCAR to help “offset” the loss of charter security and subsequent VALUE of those charters. Some folks on here talk about it’s no big deal, just rich people ragging on, blah blah. Well, it is a real problem. Teams are not profitable, or if they are, it’s really more a penny over break even. Yes they live pretty well, Hendrick jets, drivers with good money, no doubt. But as businesses, they aren’t stuffing sofas with cash. Sponsor money is harder to get than ever. The value of charters represents a significant asset teams can borrow against if they need to…unless there IS no charter. Hambone said it pretty well on his podcast. As an owner you can’t sell or buy a charger if they don’t exist, and currently, after 12/31/2024, there are no charters. He wants to add a team, but cannot see making a major purchase of a charter without knowing it will be of value long term.

I’m shocked SHR can supposedly get $25M for theirs (reportedly, although it may be much lower). Trackhouse hasn’t announced anything, so I’m sure they’re constantly evaluating this. Price will go down fast if there is no certainty on ability for teams to OWN their charters.
 
It's pretty hard to make the case that the business model for Cup is all that broken when people are paying 20-40 million for charters, and people seem to be lined up to buy them. I don't trust much of anything I hear from EITHER side of these negotiations. If NASCAR wants the right to own them, clearly THEY see value in them, and likely a chance to make money. As most know, I was never in favor of the charter system in the first place, and my philosophy has always been that Cup racing either works for you or it doesn't. When teams stop showing up to compete, the model will change.
 
Conover said:
Cost controls represents a negotiation ploy by NASCAR to help “offset” the loss of charter security and subsequent VALUE of those charters. Some folks on here talk about it’s no big deal, just rich people ragging on, blah blah. Well, it is a real problem. Teams are not profitable, or if they are, it’s really more a penny over break even. Yes they live pretty well, Hendrick jets, drivers with good money, no doubt. But as businesses, they aren’t stuffing sofas with cash. Sponsor money is harder to get than ever. The value of charters represents a significant asset teams can borrow against if they need to…unless there IS no charter. Hambone said it pretty well on his podcast. As an owner you can’t sell or buy a charger if they don’t exist, and currently, after 12/31/2024, there are no charters. He wants to add a team, but cannot see making a major purchase of a charter without knowing it will be of value long term.

I’m shocked SHR can supposedly get $25M for theirs (reportedly, although it may be much lower). Trackhouse hasn’t announced anything, so I’m sure they’re constantly evaluating this. Price will go down fast if there is no certainty on ability for teams to OWN their charters.
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Simple two fold question, why does a team need to make money and what constitutes making money?
 
Personally I think Nascar would love to see 4-4 car teams leave.
I also think a new series to compete against Nascar is a must.
 
On DJD they said Jim France said they can't make the charters permanent because they revenue they have is based on media money, which changes under every contract. Denny replied - It doesn't cost anything to make them permanent. To me this just shows Denny's lack of business intelligence. Nascar can't guarantee a future percentage as media money will vary, yet cost to maintain a track is relatively fixed, they need a certain dollar value yearly. IMO Nascar has tried their best to limit spending for teams, but despite their best efforts teams have found more ways to spend it. Just think they had to put in a rule that said teams have to use commercially available CFD software. You only do that if teams are trying to write software on their own.
 
Team Penske said:
Personally I think Nascar would love to see 4-4 car teams leave.
I also think a new series to compete against Nascar is a must.
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I think a rival series would have a difficult time with ever getting it's feet off the ground. But you never know, I would have never thought that there would be any other football leagues aside from the NFL.

Personally I do not want NASCAR to go away. I am sympathetic with the owners and not completely trusting of NASCAR especially with their current dispute. But I can't imagine anyone else doing a better job of being in charge than NASCAR.

NASCAR has it flaws but I can't imagine running anything as wild as auto racing. So many things can go wrong and I think anyone involved or responsible has to be almost insane for taking on the task. If I was going to point out the biggest risk takers at the race tracks it wouldn't be the drivers, I would say it is the promoters or track owners and the sanctioning body.
 
wi_racefan said:
On DJD they said Jim France said they can't make the charters permanent because they revenue they have is based on media money, which changes under every contract. Denny replied - It doesn't cost anything to make them permanent. To me this just shows Denny's lack of business intelligence. Nascar can't guarantee a future percentage as media money will vary, yet cost to maintain a track is relatively fixed, they need a certain dollar value yearly.
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This is exactly right.

NASCAR did not get the type of increase I thought they would from their new TV deal, and in the process, signed a deal that guarantees a double digit ratings decline.
 
wi_racefan said:
On DJD they said Jim France said they can't make the charters permanent because they revenue they have is based on media money, which changes under every contract. Denny replied - It doesn't cost anything to make them permanent. To me this just shows Denny's lack of business intelligence. Nascar can't guarantee a future percentage as media money will vary, yet cost to maintain a track is relatively fixed, they need a certain dollar value yearly. IMO Nascar has tried their best to limit spending for teams, but despite their best efforts teams have found more ways to spend it. Just think they had to put in a rule that said teams have to use commercially available CFD software. You only do that if teams are trying to write software on their own.
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Hamlin is advised by Curtis Polk and Steve Lauletta. You can look those boys up on the Intergoogle. I wouldn’t be too concerned about Denny’s “lack of business intelligence”.

The RTA wants to protect the value of the Charter ASSETS. They haven’t asked for revenue guarantees beyond the 7 year life of the new TV deals.
 
aunty dive said:
Hamlin is advised by Curtis Polk and Steve Lauletta. You can look those boys up on the Intergoogle. I wouldn’t be too concerned about Denny’s “lack of business intelligence”.

The RTA wants to protect the value of the Charter ASSETS. They haven’t asked for revenue guarantees beyond the 7 year life of the new TV deals.
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How much Nascar experience do they have?
 
Greg said:
I think a rival series would have a difficult time with ever getting it's feet off the ground. But you never know, I would have never thought that there would be any other football leagues aside from the NFL.

Personally I do not want NASCAR to go away. I am sympathetic with the owners and not completely trusting of NASCAR especially with their current dispute. But I can't imagine anyone else doing a better job of being in charge than NASCAR.

NASCAR has it flaws but I can't imagine running anything as wild as auto racing. So many things can go wrong and I think anyone involved or responsible has to be almost insane for taking on the task. If I was going to point out the biggest risk takers at the race tracks it wouldn't be the drivers, I would say it is the promoters or track owners and the sanctioning body.
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Nascar makes so much money they could lose half just to stay in complete control.
 
I don't know who John Russell is but I appreciate a video that included captioning. I'm not sure I agree with some of his positions.
 
Team Penske said:
I personally would like to see the Team Alliance fight back on many fronts based on using the law to their advantage.
Unfortunately the bottom half of the teams can not and will not stick to a plan.
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That's exactly why there is an RCR today.
He was a union buster the now belongs to the owners union. I'm sure there's a reason why his voice is not often heard in this conversation.
 


Draw your own conclusions from this about what NASCAR might look like in 2025.
 
I'm still 95% certain it's a bluff. "Sticking it to the corporate man" and playing the role of the "innocent teams just trying to negotiate with the corporate overlords of the tyrannical France family" is an angle that will STRONGLY resonate with the fans, especially the "traditional" older, less educated NASCAR fans.
 
whine-1.jpg


:XXROFL:
 
Let me tell this story of how I think teams think, pretty much like farmers.

I knew a Sweet corn grower in South Florida and we were visiting one day and I asked how he did in his sweet corn crop that year. He said he had a hell of a season and had make $15,000,000.00 on his sweet corn crop.

Fast Forward to next season end, same conversation with the same farmer. How did you do this season, he looked at me and said, I lost $7,500.000.00 this season, I said holy **** sorry to hear that. Yeah he said, I only made $7,500.000.00 this season, that is how these teams think.

You do not fund race teams at this level for nothing in return, don't buy there BS. You don't build Tosh Mahall race shops and not be making bank.

Do they need a fair shake from Nastycar, yes.

Remember boys and girls making money is a very objective view, to many, it is never enough.

Personally, if I was the teams, I would go for all I could get at every negotiation but, at some point you need to say, OK, it's a deal. It is always best to walk away from a deal where everyone wins. To not do this will cause friction down the road.
 
sdj said:
Let me tell this story of how I think teams think, pretty much like farmers.

I knew a Sweet corn grower in South Florida and we were visiting one day and I asked how he did in his sweet corn crop that year. He said he had a hell of a season and had make $15,000,000.00 on his sweet corn crop.

Fast Forward to next season end, same conversation with the same farmer. How did you do this season, he looked at me and said, I lost $7,500.000.00 this season, I said holy **** sorry to hear that. Yeah he said, I only made $7,500.000.00 this season, that is how these teams think.

You do not fund race teams at this level for nothing in return, don't buy there BS. You don't build Tosh Mahall race shops and not be making bank.

Do they need a fair shake from Nastycar, yes.

Remember boys and girls making money is a very objective view, to many, it is never enough.

Personally, if I was the teams, I would go for all I could get at every negotiation but, at some point you need to say, OK, it's a deal. It is always best to walk away from a deal where everyone wins. To not do this will cause friction down the road.
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I'll agree that some of these teams do a VERY poor job of claiming poverty. I remember a quote attributed to Harry Ranier that said he only needed the race team to show a "paper profit" once every seven years to keep the bean counters and the IRS happy. I know several part time farmers that operate the exact same way.
 
Formerjackman said:
I'll agree that some of these teams do a VERY poor job of claiming poverty. I remember a quote attributed to Harry Ranier that said he only needed the race team to show a "paper profit" once every seven years to keep the bean counters and the IRS happy. I know several part time farmers that operate the exact same way.
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I thought after so many losses it would be counted as a hobby, at least that was the 1990s advice I was given.
 
wi_racefan said:
I think Denny lost all rights to claim poor me when he showed us the shop they built.

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EXACTLY. Denny claims what a raw deal the teams are getting, but it didn't stop him from diving head first into to team ownership anyway. The same goes for Jeff Gordon who instead of bowing out of team ownership, got MORE involved. Look at the money Spire and Front Row have thrown around lately. As much as I don't want to imply that I'm backing the France family in all of this, if I'm Jim, I'm probably not conceding much of anything at this point.
 
Another thing I have noticed about the pit boxes is the way the team members are always playing on their PCs during the races.

They should have their minds on the race and not be playing on the internet during the race.

Perhaps they should get rid of the pit boxes and force them to stand and pay attention. At least then they would not be tethered to the internet during the races.

Aside from posting on RF during a race they just ain't excuse for the distraction.
 
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Charlie Spencer said:
I guess we know who 23XI's new charter isn't for...
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I think Landon is still digging back from that terrible pay him in crypto deal he took with Kaulig...but he is right on this.
 
wi_racefan said:
Look at "airspeed" and tell me again they ran the team lean.....

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If you don’t understand the difference between capital cost items and operating expense you probably shouldn’t comment.
 
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