23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

AlTerego said:
IMO MJ is playing a game of chicken he can’t win. I’m sure someone will let him know how things are and he’ll come to his senses soon.
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The thing is if anyone has FU money and ride this thing out for all it's worth it's MJ.

Front Row on the other hand has me baffled. Only thing I can figure is they're too far in the hole with what they've agreed to pay SHR that the dollars don't work with the deal on the table.

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wi_racefan said:
The thing is if anyone has FU money and ride this thing out for all it's worth it's MJ.

Front Row on the other hand has me baffled. Only thing I can figure is they're too far in the hole with what they've agreed to pay SHR that the dollars don't work with the deal on the table.

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Bob Jenkins is a very wealthy man. Yum brands.
 
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't actually think these unsigned teams are going anywhere. They do appear to be endangering their shots at those SHR charters they wanted.

Indeed, that may be part of 'Charters for France Family' deal is about. It's easier and more acceptable for NASCAR to shift existing charters to the Frances than to create additional new ones for them. If those teams want another one charter each, better sign in a hurry because NASCAR already has 'owners' on standby.
 
Fun fact, Michael Jordan missed the game winning shot 26 times in his career, he made 28 of them. So it’s about 50/50 you win with him on the final shot.
 
Curtis Polk works the numbers and the strategy. Michael Jordan listens, smiles and nods.

It’s been that way for many successful, profitable years. He has Nike paying far more for Jordan’s endorsements and shoe royalties than they spent when MJ was still balling.
 
Just a couple of thoughts. Everybody is poo-pooing the idea that the teams were forced to sign the agreement, but just a few days ago, NOBODY wanted to sign it and all the sudden all but two sign it. I don't think that just happens organically. Secondly, I have been on record since day one of not liking the RTA or the charters, the fact that the teams waste WAY too much money to play the victim card, and that NASCAR is often greedy and stupid. With that in mind, I find totally AWESOME that somebody has the balls to stand up and and call out NASCAR, whether they are right or wrong, isn't even as important as somebody willing to fight for what they think is right. IF the teams were strong armed into signing an agreement, and IF there really is an anti-disparaging clause, that alone would be enough for me to tell NASCAR to stick it someplace. Whenever people try to silence their critics, you can be 100% sure they are in the wrong. If you are open and honest and transparent about what you are doing and why, then there is little reason for someone to call you out. As far as MJ, keep in mind that his total NASCAR investment equals the spare change he keeps in his car. It would be fun to see him walk just to see all the scrutiny and unwanted attention the France family would get from the non-NASCAR neutered media.
 
Formerjackman said:
With that in mind, I find totally AWESOME that somebody has the balls to stand up and and call out NASCAR, whether they are right or wrong, isn't even as important as somebody willing to fight for what they think is right.
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I don't see any 'right' or 'wrong' here, only how big are the slices of the pie.
Formerjackman said:
As far as MJ, keep in mind that his total NASCAR investment equals the spare change he keeps in his car. It would be fun to see him walk just to see all the scrutiny and unwanted attention the France family would get from the non-NASCAR neutered media.
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After all the screaming about the jobs Tony and Gene sacrificed for personal preference? At least their employees knew it was coming.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Same as when I was with the company that made Craftsman mowers for Sears. Chicago said 'Jump.' and we made like frogs on pogo sticks.
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That wouldn't be Roper would it. My dad's company he worked for Roper made stoves. Sears bought them and they made Mowers also.
 
StandOnIt said:
That wouldn't be Roper would it. My dad's company he worked for Roper made stoves. Sears bought them and they made Mowers also.
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Nah, at that time it was Modern Tool and Die. Mowers, snow throwers, edgers, other outdoor power equipment. Sears, Monkey Wards, Ace, True Value, and a couple other house brands I can no longer recall.
 
Formerjackman said:
With that in mind, I find totally AWESOME that somebody has the balls to stand up and and call out NASCAR, whether they are right or wrong, isn't even as important as somebody willing to fight for what they think is right
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I would rather the Norma Rae of NASCAR be someone other than an emotionally volatile crybaby. The messenger matters as much as the message and Hamlin has no credibility.
 
This whole thing has been fascinating to me. So many people have heard so much noise. It's been fun to talk about! I have absolutely no facts or smoking guns whatsoever, but here's what I've gathered to be the most "smoke" from the six billion different stories I've heard:

1) many teams were too scared not to sign it (mostly referring to the smaller/mid size types.

2) at least one team, maybe even more have some kind of side deal with NASCAR (wonder who that could be if true, lol). There have been several meetings between NASCAR and individual teams, so it's not inconceivable a team or two or three would have more reason to sign a deal than others. At face value, the terms of the agreement really don't make sense for a big team. Unless.....

And finally, 3) there is absolutely legal ground for 23XI & FRM to stand on if NASCAR just flips them off and takes their charters. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise...MJ (et al) and Jenkins are two of the most savvy, successful business people/groups in the history of NASCAR...you don't think they know what they're doing? And NASCAR seems to trip over their own dicks every chance they get...all of a sudden this is now different, and they are now suddenly great decision makers? This could/would be a bloody war, and despite what's been said here, NASCAR has much more to lose than MJ/Denny/Jenkins. They are setting up for a fight where, if 23XI/FRM wins, NASCAR might legitimately lose control of the sport (this would be Supreme Court type litigation). And if NASCAR wins, MJ/Jenkins might lose one of the zeros in their many zeros worth of rediculous wealth, assuming there's not some other avenue of racing for teams to start exploring... (hmmmm.)

This whole thing is not a David vs Goliath type deal...it's set up to be a clash of the titans. Or, it'll fizzle out into nothing. Either or!
 
MJ comes from the NBA and its business practices. The NBA as a league is owned by the teams. Imagine how NASCAR would be if charters were the basis of series ownership. It could get complicated with all the different series, but imagine…
 
I still stand by teams really have no leg to stand on until they agree to a spending cap.

By giving them more money all you do is allow them to keep spending like a drunken sailor

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Until I see what was proposed and what the holdouts are wanting, I'm not going to blame one side or the other.

Racing is in an interesting spot. Younger people don't care about cars and therefore don't care much for racing. Unless that turns around, all sides better be careful how they approach the financial side of things.
 
MRM said:
Until I see what was proposed and what the holdouts are wanting, I'm not going to blame one side or the other.

Racing is in an interesting spot. Younger people don't care about cars and therefore don't care much for racing. Unless that turns around, all sides better be careful how they approach the financial side of things.
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Eh, I watch a lot of dirt racing. The stands are full of kids at the grass roots level. I do think it is interesting watching a greedy billionaire take on the France family. It isn't helping the sport, so my side is always going to be the sport. It isn't #1 because a bunch of dummies are running it.
 
Aside from a guarantee to qualify for a race I don't know what else the charter does for teams. What is the difference between running a race with or without a charter?
 
Anybody feel like we're watching Point/Counterpoint. 😁
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

23XI, Front Row decline NASCAR charter deal

23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports declined to sign NASCAR’s new charter agreement Friday while the 13 other premier series teams signed, sources say, seemingly setting up a high-stakes showdown between the two teams and the sanctioning body.
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com www.sportsbusinessjournal.com
 
StandOnIt said:
Money, lots of it. A guaranteed starting spot. I think they get 2/3rds of the winnings a charter team gets.
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i think thats close,but i aways wonder how long it takes to get your 25 to 40 million back with that 1/3
 
wi_racefan said:
I still stand by teams really have no leg to stand on until they agree to a spending cap.

By giving them more money all you do is allow them to keep spending like a drunken sailor
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Pretty sure a spending cap isn’t part of the new 7 year Charter agreement.
 
aunty dive said:
Pretty sure a spending cap isn’t part of the new 7 year Charter agreement.
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It isn't but you can only keep demanding more money for so long before the amount you continue to spend becomes ridiculous

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Every time another 3 zeroes are added, the definition of ridiculous is re-written.

We can revisit this in 7 years. 😎
 
StandOnIt said:
Non-charters don't get this.
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How much have costs gone up since the current charter agreement was reached. I know they've changed the weekend schedules by cutting out a day teams are at the track, the sealed engines, and other reductions. But the cost of parts have gone through the roof, not to mention an increase for crews and employees due to the crazy inflation of the last 3 years.
 
MRM said:
How much have costs gone up since the current charter agreement was reached. I know they've changed the weekend schedules by cutting out a day teams are at the track, the sealed engines, and other reductions. But the cost of parts have gone through the roof, not to mention an increase for crews and employees due to the crazy inflation of the last 3 years.
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Everything Nascar has done to save teams money has just been spent in other areas. The car itself is more expensive, but they also run that chassis all year instead of have several generations throughout the year.



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MRM said:
How much have costs gone up since the current charter agreement was reached. I know they've changed the weekend schedules by cutting out a day teams are at the track, the sealed engines, and other reductions. But the cost of parts have gone through the roof, not to mention an increase for crews and employees due to the crazy inflation of the last 3 years.
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That is about the only thing in that statement that can be quantified. Inflation/greedflation was high a couple years after the pandemic, but inflation/greedflation continues to decline.
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MRM said:
Until I see what was proposed and what the holdouts are wanting, I'm not going to blame one side or the other.
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Finally, someone with some common sense.
Whoever woulda thought there would be so much unsubstantiated information posted as argument for 23XI and FRM holding out on signing the NASCAR agreement. These are smart business people and that is not to imply teams such as RCR, JGR, HMR, or any of the others are not.

Sometimes ownership must stand on what they believe and until, or unless, NASCAR or the holdouts state what agreement(s) are being sought, everything else is speculation.

There is one determining factor in those most anxious to discredit 23XI intentions seems to be more anti-Hamlin rhetoric that reflects their dislike of the driver of the #11.

This will all shake out and an uneducated guess is until one of the involved parties makes a statement addressing the issue(s) we don't know anything about it although there is little doubt conjecture will continue to reign supreme among the pontificators as that is what keeps this forum alive.
 
Whizzer said:
Finally, someone with some common sense.
Whoever woulda thought there would be so much unsubstantiated information posted as argument for 23XI and FRM holding out on signing the NASCAR agreement. These are smart business people and that is not to imply teams such as RCR, JGR, HMR, or any of the others are not.

Sometimes ownership must stand on what they believe and until, or unless, NASCAR or the holdouts state what agreement(s) are being sought, everything else is speculation.

There is one determining factor in those most anxious to discredit 23XI intentions seems to be more anti-Hamlin rhetoric that reflects their dislike of the driver of the #11.

This will all shake out and an uneducated guess is until one of the involved parties makes a statement addressing the issue(s) we don't know anything about it although there is little doubt conjecture will continue to reign supreme among the pontificators as that is what keeps this forum alive.
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There is plenty of information out there and more every day. Sticking one's head in the sand might work for some, but this thread isn't going anywhere. :idunno:
 
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