23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Whizzer said:
Finally, someone with some common sense.
Whoever woulda thought there would be so much unsubstantiated information posted as argument for 23XI and FRM holding out on signing the NASCAR agreement. These are smart business people and that is not to imply teams such as RCR, JGR, HMR, or any of the others are not.

Sometimes ownership must stand on what they believe and until, or unless, NASCAR or the holdouts state what agreement(s) are being sought, everything else is speculation.

There is one determining factor in those most anxious to discredit 23XI intentions seems to be more anti-Hamlin rhetoric that reflects their dislike of the driver of the #11.

This will all shake out and an uneducated guess is until one of the involved parties makes a statement addressing the issue(s) we don't know anything about it although there is little doubt conjecture will continue to reign supreme among the pontificators as that is what keeps this forum alive.
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I wouldn’t mind some transparency.
 
StandOnIt said:
There is plenty of information out there and more every day. Sticking one's head in the sand might work for some, but this thread isn't going anywhere. :idunno:
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Prove me wrong.
Show me the, "plenty of information out there and more every day," source(s) that represent NASCAR or 23XI and FRM that specify the reason(s) for either of them to not sign their charters by either of those organizations and they made made public. I'm not talking about opinion or speculation but from a source authorized by either NASCAR, 23XI or FRM to speak on their behalf.
 
Hawaii808 said:
MJ comes from the NBA and its business practices. The NBA as a league is owned by the teams. Imagine how NASCAR would be if charters were the basis of series ownership. It could get complicated with all the different series, but imagine…
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Go check Jordan's record as an NBA owner and get back to me

Or I can save you the time...HE SUCKED

Just because he was the GOAT player, means absolutely nothing when it come to ownership
 
RayinTX said:
Go check Jordan's record as an NBA owner and get back to me

Or I can save you the time...HE SUCKED

Just because he was the GOAT player, means absolutely nothing when it come to ownership
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That's well known, I'm talking about the business model of the teams owning the series. It's worked pretty well for the NFL too.
 
Whizzer said:
Prove me wrong.
Show me the, "plenty of information out there and more every day," source(s) that represent NASCAR or 23XI and FRM that specify the reason(s) for either of them to not sign their charters by either of those organizations and they made made public. I'm not talking about opinion or speculation but from a source authorized by either NASCAR, 23XI or FRM to speak on their behalf.
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They are fighting over money/control is the simple answer. Everybody got a raise, but a couple of teams want more. So far those two teams haven't specifically named what their hang ups are, but the article just posted at post #125 names a few that could possibly be the issue(s).
 
RayinTX said:
Well at least this time he posted a Cup photo rather than Xfinity
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That could be a change to the system they had that said no major changes until the next year and changes had to be brought up during the off season to give the teams time to make the changes. That hamstringed Nascar's ability to make running changes to the cars I know. Of course teams wouldn't mostly be for anything like that because of the possible added expenses to make the change.
 
Whizzer said:
Prove me wrong.
Show me the, "plenty of information out there and more every day," source(s) that represent NASCAR or 23XI and FRM that specify the reason(s) for either of them to not sign their charters by either of those organizations and they made made public. I'm not talking about opinion or speculation but from a source authorized by either NASCAR, 23XI or FRM to speak on their behalf.
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Well, Denny said Nascar is mean, so..
 
“The term of the charter agreement is for seven years starting in 2025 and commensurate with NASCAR’s new media rights deals that begin next year, meaning teams who signed on did not get the permanency of the system they had been negotiating for in recent years. Teams are getting more revenue as part of the deal, which stems from NASCAR getting a 40% increase in its media rights agreements worth $7.7B. For example, the last-place charter got around $4-5M annually in the old charter agreement from 2016-24, while that will go up to around $8.5M in the new version from 2025-31, people familiar with the matter said.

Whether the increases will be enough to make teams financially healthy is something that has been debated in recent months, but issues arose in other areas. In recent weeks, the sides negotiated over topics including potential new revenue opportunities separate from traditional media; how much say teams will have over potentially costly rule changes; and the new non-disparagement clause that had been inserted in some recent drafts…”

www.sportsbusinessjournal.com

23XI, Front Row decline NASCAR charter deal

23XI Racing and Front Row Motorsports declined to sign NASCAR’s new charter agreement Friday while the 13 other premier series teams signed, sources say, seemingly setting up a high-stakes showdown between the two teams and the sanctioning body.
www.sportsbusinessjournal.com www.sportsbusinessjournal.com
 
Whizzer said:
Prove me wrong.
Show me the, "plenty of information out there and more every day," source(s) that represent NASCAR or 23XI and FRM that specify the reason(s) for either of them to not sign their charters by either of those organizations and they made made public. I'm not talking about opinion or speculation but from a source authorized by either NASCAR, 23XI or FRM to speak on their behalf.
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I read intellectual property to mean permanent charters.
sportsnaut.com

NASCAR makes bold move to end charter negotiations but two teams didn't budge

Michael Jordan's team, with a history of NBA team ownership, isn't accepting the status quo
sportsnaut.com sportsnaut.com
 
Allenbaba said:
This whole thing has been fascinating to me. So many people have heard so much noise. It's been fun to talk about! I have absolutely no facts or smoking guns whatsoever, but here's what I've gathered to be the most "smoke" from the six billion different stories I've heard:

1) many teams were too scared not to sign it (mostly referring to the smaller/mid size types.

2) at least one team, maybe even more have some kind of side deal with NASCAR (wonder who that could be if true, lol). There have been several meetings between NASCAR and individual teams, so it's not inconceivable a team or two or three would have more reason to sign a deal than others. At face value, the terms of the agreement really don't make sense for a big team. Unless.....

And finally, 3) there is absolutely legal ground for 23XI & FRM to stand on if NASCAR just flips them off and takes their charters. Not sure why anyone would think otherwise...MJ (et al) and Jenkins are two of the most savvy, successful business people/groups in the history of NASCAR...you don't think they know what they're doing? And NASCAR seems to trip over their own dicks every chance they get...all of a sudden this is now different, and they are now suddenly great decision makers? This could/would be a bloody war, and despite what's been said here, NASCAR has much more to lose than MJ/Denny/Jenkins. They are setting up for a fight where, if 23XI/FRM wins, NASCAR might legitimately lose control of the sport (this would be Supreme Court type litigation). And if NASCAR wins, MJ/Jenkins might lose one of the zeros in their many zeros worth of rediculous wealth, assuming there's not some other avenue of racing for teams to start exploring... (hmmmm.)

This whole thing is not a David vs Goliath type deal...it's set up to be a clash of the titans. Or, it'll fizzle out into nothing. Either or!
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Michael Jordan is bigger than NASCAR. I've seen people reference NASCAR being willing to stand their ground and risk standing against him.

But since when is NASCAR ever had someone bigger than them as an owner? I think this is peculiar coming from you.

It sounds like you're saying NASCAR stands to lose control of the sport and someone like MJ stands to lose that big toe nail clipping from Tuesday night last week
 
wi_racefan said:
The thing is if anyone has FU money and ride this thing out for all it's worth it's MJ.

Front Row on the other hand has me baffled. Only thing I can figure is they're too far in the hole with what they've agreed to pay SHR that the dollars don't work with the deal on the table.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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His NASCAR ever had an owner that is just light years bigger than them? Because Michael Jordan is absolutely on an entirely separate stratosphere than NASCAR. FUvmoney aside, NASCAR would be stupid to play ball against MJ
 
Whizzer said:
Prove me wrong.
Show me the, "plenty of information out there and more every day," source(s) that represent NASCAR or 23XI and FRM that specify the reason(s) for either of them to not sign their charters by either of those organizations and they made made public. I'm not talking about opinion or speculation but from a source authorized by either NASCAR, 23XI or FRM to speak on their behalf.
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What do the teams want?

The teams have always wanted four things out of the charter negotiations: a larger share of the revenue, a seat at the table for governance issues, a cut on business deals NASCAR does that uses team or driver likenesses, and, most importantly, for charters to become permanent, locking in stability.

Jim France, a son of NASCAR founder Bill France Sr. and current chairman, was never going to make the charters permanent and it became a major sticking point. The final offer did not include permanent charters; it also has language that would allow the series-owning France family to hold charters and field their own teams, according to multiple team owners.
sports.yahoo.com

NASCAR has finalized a new charter agreement. Team co-owner Michael Jordan won't sign it

NASCAR is in a stalemate with Michael Jordan and how it ends could potentially get very messy for both sides. After more than two years of contentious negotiations over a new revenue agreement, NASCAR last weekend finally got 13 organizations — all but two — to sign a new deal. The agreement...
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
 
StandOnIt said:
They are fighting over money/control is the simple answer.
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^^^ Source, please. ^^^
StandOnIt said:
Everybody got a raise, but a couple of teams want more.
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^^^ Source, please. ^^^
StandOnIt said:
So far those two teams haven't specifically named what their hang ups are, but the article just posted at post #125 names a few that could possibly be the issue(s).
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Like I said, nothing from a spokesperson for NASCAR, 23XI or FRM. Everything else is speculation. Articles containing, "a few that could possibly be the issue," are not spokespeople from NASCAR, 23XI or FRM. Everything else is speculation.

Here's the deal, again, no one knows specifically what the hang-up is with the two teams refusing to sign the charter with NASCAR. Everything discussed is based on rumor or innuendo. No formal statement from either side outlining why these groups are at loggerheads.
 
I suspect this isn’t a cash grab effort from Denny and MJ. Or Frontrow. Yep it’s my oure speculation but I’m convinced their goal is to balance this odd and incestuous business so it grows and is more viable in the long run. Might they bring them more money? Sure. But we all know the current business model is a mess. So I’m hoping their effort here wrings out some improvements. MJ seems in it for the long run.
 
RaceCritter said:
I suspect this isn’t a cash grab effort from Denny and MJ. Or Frontrow. Yep it’s my oure speculation but I’m convinced their goal is to balance this odd and incestuous business so it grows and is more viable in the long run. Might they bring them more money? Sure. But we all know the current business model is a mess. So I’m hoping their effort here wrings out some improvements. MJ seems in it for the long run.
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This pretty much covers what they are arguing over. They did get a raise in revenue. They are not getting permanent charters.

What do the teams want?

The teams have always wanted four things out of the charter negotiations: a larger share of the revenue, a seat at the table for governance issues, a cut on business deals NASCAR does that uses team or driver likenesses, and, most importantly, for charters to become permanent, locking in stability.

Jim France, a son of NASCAR founder Bill France Sr. and current chairman, was never going to make the charters permanent and it became a major sticking point. The final offer did not include permanent charters; it also has language that would allow the series-owning France family to hold charters and field their own teams, according to multiple team owners.
 
Knew this would be a mess. NASCAR decided it was time to be done, put the final offer on the table. To me the question now is, what comes next for Hambone/MJ and Front Row? If they had further conversations and decided to sign, will NASCAR change anything? I say no. You can’t undermine the other team’s agreements by handing over anything new, unless you give it to everyone else, but that requires an addendum and more signatures. So they MAY be allowed to sign the current formed agreement if done soon. If not they may close the window completely, force them to run as open cars.

With NASCAR laying the groundwork to have their own charters set aside for a potential NEW manufacturer, they may just claim those 4 that were forfeited and both teams will be SOL.
 
While the France family has been instrumental in building NASCAR imho their model is a dinosaur that now holds the entire sport back.
 
Did teams have to buy charters when they were first introduced in 2016 or were they “gifted” to teams that were in the series.

If those teams didn’t have to pay for them and 23XI has come in and been a major contributor over the past 3 years and has paid 40?50+? million for 2 charters while trying to pay another 20+ for a charter. I’d be upset about it too. Also makes it a lot easier for the teams that were given charters to just accept whatever nascar gives them.
 
antman12 said:
Did teams have to buy charters when they were first introduced in 2016 or were they “gifted” to teams that were in the series.

If those teams didn’t have to pay for them and 23XI has come in and been a major contributor over the past 3 years and has paid 40?50+? million for 2 charters while trying to pay another 20+ for a charter. I’d be upset about it too. Also makes it a lot easier for the teams that were given charters to just accept whatever nascar gives them.
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Nobody forced them to get into the Nascar racing business.
 
RaceCritter said:
While the France family has been instrumental in building NASCAR imho their model is a dinosaur that now holds the entire sport back.
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Because other racing leagues in this country do soo much better. The sport falls apart otherwise.
 
I get it. There are France fans. There are people who can’t see a change as good or needed. Keeping it like it is the only way to survive. The France family owns it end of story.

Opinions differ. But if we all agreed how boring would this place be?
 
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MJ's 8 million$, 82' Catch 23 toy...
 
RaceCritter said:
I get it. There are France fans. There are people who can’t see a change as good or needed. Keeping it like it is the only way to survive. The France family owns it end of story.

Opinions differ. But if we all agreed how boring would this place be?
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I'm not a France fan but I trust them and their vision far more than Denny Hamlin. Denny is one of those guys who thinks because he can talk it makes him smart. That is rarely the case.
 
Whizzer said:
There is one determining factor in those most anxious to discredit 23XI intentions seems to be more anti-Hamlin rhetoric that reflects their dislike of the driver of the #11.
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✋ Guilty!! That's me! Lol...
 
kkfan91 said:
I'm not a France fan but I trust them and their vision far more than Denny Hamlin. Denny is one of those guys who thinks because he can talk it makes him smart. That is rarely the case.
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I've started listening to his podcast more... he definitely sounds like a jerk.
 
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