23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Charlie Spencer said:
I'm only concerned with Jordan within the context of his NASCAR involvement. I don't care why the man is famous or how he made his money. As I noted, the GOAT argument is a sideshow; whether he is or isn't has nothing to do with the lawsuit in question.

If he wasn't famous, only mega-rich from an incredibly successful career doing something boring in obscurity, do you think the uproar over his lawsuit would be as great? If not, then it appears to me the only reason for the hoopla is because he's famous.
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You don’t think an antitrust lawsuit against NASCAR is sufficient cause for hoopla?
 
Formerjackman said:
Well that aside, MJ is VERY BIG in the demographics that NASCAR, and more importantly many of the NASCAR sponsors want to be in with. It's like the Pitbull thing. I wouldn't recognize him if he walked into my office right now, and I couldn't name a single song of his, but he is big with people that sponsors want to connect with.
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Everyone keeps telling me how important he is to NASCAR but no one can give me any measurable improvements his involvement has made. I’m perfectly willing to give him credit where credit is due though.
 
AlTerego said:
Everyone keeps telling me how important he is to NASCAR but no one can give me any measurable improvements his involvement has made. I’m perfectly willing to give him credit where credit is due though.
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Sure you are.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well that aside, MJ is VERY BIG in the demographics that NASCAR, and more importantly many of the NASCAR sponsors want to be in with. It's like the Pitbull thing. I wouldn't recognize him if he walked into my office right now, and I couldn't name a single song of his, but he is big with people that sponsors want to connect with.
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But are they actually attracting that demographic?

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aunty dive said:
He helped start a new Cup team.

He’s responsible for that and for none of the other things you mentioned.
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We have failure to communicate. I never suggested MJ was responsible for anything.

I asked how he improved Nascar and you said by helping start a Nascar team. I believe that to be true.
 
AlTerego said:
Everyone keeps telling me how important he is to NASCAR but no one can give me any measurable improvements his involvement has made. I’m perfectly willing to give him credit where credit is due though.
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Yep, he is just another team owner to me. Some think he is their savior for all of the angst they have against the Nascar racing series and he will save them and make things right..... I'm waiting for the playing cards, maybe a commemorative shoe.
 
aunty dive said:
You don’t think an antitrust lawsuit against NASCAR is sufficient cause for hoopla?
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I edited the post you replied to after your response. My apologies.

Yes, I think it's cause for attention but ...
Charlie Spencer said:
People keep forgetting there's a team other than Jordan's involved in this suit.
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I think it would get far less attention if it was only FRM, or FRM and a B-tier team with a less famous owner like Kaulig or Keselowski.

EDIT That's why I question if he's important to this suit beyond his fame. =IF= this reaches a courtroom, that's not going to mean much to a judge.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I edited the post you replied to after your response. My apologies.

Yes, I think it's cause for attention but ...

I think it would get far less attention if it was only FRM, or FRM and B-tier team with a less famous owner like Kaulig or Keselowski.
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The big fish in a little pond syndrome I hear a lot. Oh he has so much money. Something I never hear is what good this is going to do to the sport. The competition will get better if the big money guys get more money?
 
AlTerego said:
We have failure to communicate. I never suggested MJ was responsible for anything.

I asked how he improved Nascar and you said by helping start a Nascar team. I believe that to be true.
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No, we don’t.

Rather, you appear to have a short term memory problem. Re-read your post # 877. You questioned his effect on several issues of interest to NASCAR and its fans.

None of them are his responsibility, not should they be.
 
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Charlie Spencer said:
I think it would get far less attention if it was only FRM, or FRM and a B-tier team with a less famous owner like Kaulig or Keselowski.

EDIT That's why I question if he's important to this suit beyond his fame. =IF= this reaches a courtroom, that's not going to mean much to a judge.
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Agree in both instances.
 
StandOnIt said:
The big fish in a little pond syndrome I hear a lot. Oh he has so much money. Something I never hear is what good this is going to do to the sport. The competition will get better if the big money guys get more money?
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I'm in the camp that the more money the owners receive, the more they'll spend. If this whole thing results in them all getting a bigger piece of the pie, that extra money isn't going be invested in a high-yield mutual fund. Whether that results in a visible improvement in on-track competition would remain to be seen. Nothing wrong with that; it's their money to spend as they wish.

Unlike some, I certainly don't expect the competition rulebook to change as a result of this.
 
StandOnIt said:
Yep, he is just another team owner to me. Some think he is their savior for all of the angst they have against the Nascar racing series and he will save them and make things right..... I'm waiting for the playing cards, maybe a commemorative shoe.
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That’s the way I see MJ. He’s the owner of a NASCAR team and nothing more or less.
 
aunty dive said:
No, we don’t.

Rather, you appear to have a short term memory problem. Re-read your post # 877. You questioned his effect on several issues of interest to NASCAR and its fans.

None of them are his responsibility, not should they be.
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I’ve got you to do it for me😁
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I edited the post you replied to after your response. My apologies.

Yes, I think it's cause for attention but ...

I think it would get far less attention if it was only FRM, or FRM and a B-tier team with a less famous owner like Kaulig or Keselowski.

EDIT That's why I question if he's important to this suit beyond his fame. =IF= this reaches a courtroom, that's not going to mean much to a judge.
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MJ may well prevail in his suit against NASCAR but if so it will be on the merits of case. I agree that a judge is not going swayed by his fame or celebrity. I think things will be worked out before it goes to court.
 
AlTerego said:
IMO if you’re 35 you only know MJ as a McD’s shill (wow that stuff is garbage) and a shoe huckster. I have no idea if he has his own line of shoes or an endorsement deal. If it was important to me I’d know.
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If you’re 35, you would have been a kid during the peak of the Bulls run.
 
If it was Penske or Hendrick doing the suing it would be a different story for me. Those guys know the racing business and they have credibility. They were a couple of the principals who had all of the money and could have shut out all of the other smaller teams in a spending war. But they all got together to try to limit the spending and that came with some strict rules and policies. Jordan and company don't like that. That's how I see it.
 
The Nature Boy said:
If you’re 35, you would have been a kid during the peak of the Bulls run.
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That doesn't mean you were paying attention. 35 years ago, I was 30. I knew who he was and who he played for but didn't follow basketball at all. I couldn't have told you who the Bulls played against in any of their finals, or how many titles they won; heck, I still can't. He was athlete in yet another sport I didn't care about.

Although I didn't care about NASCAR at that age either. That was five years down the road.
 
What are they trying to accomplish? Like what is stopping them from starting another racing series? Are they trying to break Nascar with this lawsuit and put more money in their greedy little paws? Do they think this is going to help Nascar racing? I don't see anything good coming out of this and it looks like an attempted money grab and nothing else to me.
 
StandOnIt said:
Are they trying to break Nascar with this lawsuit and put more money in their greedy little paws? Do they think this is going to help Nascar racing? I don't see anything good coming out of this and it looks like an attempted money grab and nothing else to me.
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It's not like NASCAR is run with altruistic motives. Are its paws any less money-grubbing, or those of the tracks and networks?

I see change coming from this. Whether it's 'anything good' will be determined down the road. Seven years ago no one knew what would result from the charter system. Remember when Monster's sponsorship was supposed to change the sport?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
It's not like NASCAR is run with altruistic motives. Are its paws any less money-grubbing, or those of the tracks and networks?

I see change coming from this. Whether it's 'anything good' will be determined down the road. Seven years ago no one knew what would result from the charter system. Remember when Monster's sponsorship was supposed to change the sport?
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Never for a second did I believe that about Monster. They didn't make a ripple. Greg is still in mourning though, but is wasn't from drinking the crap.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm in the camp that the more money the owners receive, the more they'll spend. If this whole thing results in them all getting a bigger piece of the pie, that extra money isn't going be invested in a high-yield mutual fund. Whether that results in a visible improvement in on-track competition would remain to be seen. Nothing wrong with that; it's their money to spend as they wish.

Unlike some, I certainly don't expect the competition rulebook to change as a result of this.
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Exactly what I think. Giving them more money won't do the things that they claim, such as choosing a driver based on talent and not money.

If you give them more money they will find ways to spend more money. Until they agree to cost containment the whole argument doesn't hold water. At that point, I might be able to get behind this thing.

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Charlie Spencer said:
It's not like NASCAR is run with altruistic motives. Are its paws any less money-grubbing, or those of the tracks and networks?

I see change coming from this. Whether it's 'anything good' will be determined down the road. Seven years ago no one knew what would result from the charter system. Remember when Monster's sponsorship was supposed to change the sport?
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I don't think many understand that team owners are independent contractors. After reading the lawsuit, they should google and do some reading about what an independent contractor is and what their rights are. I do see some points that could be construed to see that Nascar is trying to treat them like employees instead of independent contractors. I had independent contractors work for me and with me for 7 years. The lines on that have become blurry over the years. It should be better defined, but big business doesn't want it that way. They want to have independent contractors for the tax and benefit breaks, and boss/employee benefits for control aspects.
 
wi_racefan said:
If you give them more money they will find ways to spend more money.
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But how they choose to spend it isn't the legal point. The point is, are they being illegally kept from getting more? What they do with it if they get it is beyond the scope of the law. Spend it on racing, invest it, give it to charity; none of those can occur if you're being blocked from getting it in the first place.

You and I agree on what they'll do with it. That doesn't mean they aren't (or are) legally entitled to it.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't think many understand that team owners are independent contractors. After reading the lawsuit, they should google and do some reading about what an independent contractor is and what their rights are. I do see some points that could be construed to see that Nascar is trying to treat them like employees instead of independent contractors. I had independent contractors work for me and with me for 7 years. The lines on that have become blurry over the years. It should be better defined, but big business doesn't want it that way. They want to have independent contractors for the tax and benefit breaks, and boss/employee benefits for control aspects.
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The NASCAR Cup Series sponsored by Uber, except in California.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
But how they choose to spend it isn't the legal point. The point is, are they being illegally kept from getting more? What they do with it if they get it is beyond the scope of the law. Spend it on racing, invest it, give it to charity; none of those can occur if you're being blocked from getting it in the first place.

You and I agree on what they'll do with it. That doesn't mean they aren't (or are) legally entitled to it.
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Honestly the only way I see it as they're not "entitled" to anything. No one is forcing them to compete against their will. Its just like any other contract if you don't like the terms, don't sign it. They have no ownership in the sport.

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StandOnIt said:
Never for a second did I believe that about Monster. They didn't make a ripple. Greg is still in mourning though, but is wasn't from drinking the crap.
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Oh, I didn't either. Many predicted its involvement would make the sport 'edgy'. It would attract the younger demographics that watched the other entertainments it sponsored, drank its products, and lived the 'lifestyle'. They started out with MMA and motorcycle stunts in pre-race, and quickly scaled back to the usual activations. After the initial contract was up, they were back to single-car sponsorship. Lasting effect? None. Certainly not Winston-level, and even Nextel / Sprint changed the championship format.

Like Monster, people are predicting what this suit will do to / for the sport. Regardless of the outcome, lawsuits like this do indeed cause changes. Even if NASCAR scores a complete win, it will make changes. They may be to make teams happier so they don't feel the need to sue again, or they may be to try intimidating the teams so they won't dare try it.

But, like Monster, it will be years before we see how influential this suit is, and what the long-term effects are.
 
wi_racefan said:
Honestly the only way I see it as they're not "entitled" to anything. No one is forcing them to compete against their will. Its just like any other contract if you don't like the terms, don't sign it. They have no ownership in the sport.

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And the sport has nothing without them.

The notion of bringing in replacement drivers and teams doesn't hold up to close analysis. If people wanted to watch Xfinity drivers in Xfinity cars, they'd be packing the stands on Saturdays when the tickets are cheaper. Coke, Geico, and Xfinity aren't going to shuck out 'major league' money for a 'Triple-A' series. The networks aren't going to pay the same money to broadcast that.
 
wi_racefan said:
Honestly the only way I see it as they're not "entitled" to anything. No one is forcing them to compete against their will. Its just like any other contract if you don't like the terms, don't sign it. They have no ownership in the sport.
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The owners, their cars, their teams and their drivers are THE SHOW.

We don’t tune in to see members of the France and Kennedy clans sitting in their suites at the track.
 
wi_racefan said:
Honestly the only way I see it as they're not "entitled" to anything. No one is forcing them to compete against their will. Its just like any other contract if you don't like the terms, don't sign it. They have no ownership in the sport.

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To me it's a money grab and there are many reasons. You have already been involved with Nascar, know their business practices. So what do you do? Let's build a multi million dollar shop and go buy another charter. Nobody forced you to do that. You had an adequate shop before you spent all that money and time.

A smarter more conservative business person would have waited to see how the finished contract talks came out before dropping all of that money in a long term investment. But, if you already knew you were going to make it a money grab, it would look better to do what they did. They had like 4 years to figure it out.
Once again, I don't know what they are trying to accomplish, but money grab keeps popping up on my radar. They think they have found a point of law they can sue for damages for.
 
Would you watch Xfinity drivers and cars on Sunday at Homestead and Phoenix and Martinsville, or would you watch Cup drivers in Gen-6 cars at Charlotte and Sonoma? SMI would open up for such a series so fast it would make DW's vortex theory a reality.
 
StandOnIt said:
To me it's a money grab and there are many reasons.
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Sure, but it may prove to be a legally justified money grab. Just as NASCAR's rules don't care why the wheel came off, antitrust law doesn't care why NASCAR may have taken uncompetitive actions. Rules is rules.
 
Sidebar: What's this crapola about the visuals of NASCAR running Jordan off? Opting to not sign a contract isn't being run off; it's walking away. If the Bulls had offered him a contract he didn't like and didn't sign, would they have been running him off?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
And the sport has nothing without them.

The notion of bringing in replacement drivers and teams doesn't hold up to close analysis. If people wanted to watch Xfinity drivers in Xfinity cars, they'd be packing the stands on Saturdays when the tickets are cheaper. Coke, Geico, and Xfinity aren't going to shuck out 'major league' money for a 'Triple-A' series. The networks aren't going to pay the same money to broadcast that.
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People will watch whatever the top level of competition is. If that's the current Xfinity drivers running street stocks they'd watch because it's the top level.

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Charlie Spencer said:
Would you watch Xfinity drivers and cars on Sunday at Homestead and Phoenix and Martinsville, or would you watch Cup drivers in Gen-6 cars at Charlotte and Sonoma? SMI would open up for such a series so fast it would make DW's vortex theory a reality.
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Duh. I'm a racing fan. I will watch and have watched lawnmower races, demo derbys, rock crawling competitions, ice racing, rally racing, bus racing, planes and boats, drags and dirt. I'll run out of room on the page. I gladly pay over 150+ bucks a year to watch my dirt midgets and sprinters. What Michael Jordan does or doesn't do isn't going to rock my world. I'm way more concerned that he doesn't screw up the racing.
 
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