23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

wi_racefan said:
People will watch whatever the top level of competition is. If that's the current Xfinity drivers running street stocks they'd watch because it's the top level.

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If displaced Cup teams started their own series, they'd be the top level of competition, not NASCAR's sheep in wolves' clothing. People won't watch NASCAR in the same numbers. There are plenty of sports that have the best competitors in the world but that not enough people are interested enough in watching to make a TV contract viable.

Nobody shows up for tribute musical acts like they do for the original artists, and they don't play the top venues, especially when people had seen and remember the real thing.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm only concerned with Jordan within the context of his NASCAR involvement. I don't care why the man is famous or how he made his money. As I noted, the GOAT argument is a sideshow; whether he is or isn't has nothing to do with the lawsuit in question.

If he wasn't famous, only mega-rich from an incredibly successful career doing something boring in obscurity, do you think the uproar over his lawsuit would be as great? If not, then it appears to me the only reason for the hoopla is because he's famous.
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Well that's exactly it. He's arguably the most famous athlete of all time.

It doesn't matter what he does for NASCAR. Losing him is a bigger issue.

When has NASCAR ever had a team owner who is lightyears bigger than the sport itself?
 
jaqua19 said:
It doesn't matter what he does for NASCAR. Losing him is a bigger issue.
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Okay, why? If possible, please give me something besides 'He's a world famous athlete'. That tells me who he is, it doesn't explain why him no longer being involved is a loss. He may be better known but in NASCAR circles, what makes him more than just another owner?

Thanks.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Okay, why? If possible, please give me something besides 'He's a world famous athlete'. That tells me who he is, it doesn't explain why him no longer being involved is a loss. He may be better known but in NASCAR circles, what makes him more than just another owner?

Thanks.
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He's the most famous athlete of all time. I'm not saying him not being involved is a loss. I'm saying "losing him" is a loss in that it's a PR nightmare.

You're thinking like a NASCAR fan and not a casual sports fan / commoner.

If you don't care what the outside world thinks of NASCAR then I totally get it..but "Michael Jordan leaves NASCAR after lawsuit" is a BAD look for the sport in the eyes of people who aren't already supporting it.

We want the sport to grow. Losing MJ is an eye sore.
 
jaqua19 said:
Well that's exactly it. He's arguably the most famous athlete of all time.

It doesn't matter what he does for NASCAR. Losing him is a bigger issue.

When has NASCAR ever had a team owner who is lightyears bigger than the sport itself?
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He is to YOU. 20 years or more later the world changes. Younger fans haven't seen him play and with each passing year it grows. The tennis shoes mean less.
How many would tune in or come to see him play with current players? 7 time Jimmie Johnson one of the goats has a team. Anybody tuning in to see him specifically race? What is going on there is a smaller scale of the Jordan thing. He is not filling the stands or blowing the bottom out of the TV ratings.
 
jaqua19 said:
You're thinking like a NASCAR fan and not a casual sports fan / commoner.
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You're right. I've never been a casual sports fan. I'm a fan of motorsports since I was 35 or so, and I started watching golf (not closely following it) around when I hit 55. I used to watch some NFL but gave that up years ago. That's it.

jaqua19 said:
If you don't care what the outside world thinks of NASCAR then I totally get it..but "Michael Jordan leaves NASCAR after lawsuit" is a BAD look for the sport in the eyes of people who aren't already supporting it.
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As I said earlier, this would be Jordan walking away of his own accord. I see how that could be spun negatively in this Internet influencer era. If I was casually reading an article, it would sound to me like he had a bad case of sour grapes.

Heck, before this suit, how many people even knew he was involved in NASCAR?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You're right. I've never been a casual sports fan. I'm a fan of motorsports since I was 35 or so, and I started watching golf (not closely following it) around when I hit 55. I used to watch some NFL but gave that up years ago. That's it.


As I said earlier, this would be Jordan walking away of his own accord. I see how that could be spun negatively in this Internet influencer era. If I was casually reading an article, it would sound to me like he had a bad case of sour grapes.

Heck, before this suit, how many people even knew he was involved in NASCAR?
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But now they do, and that's exactly the point. Yes. You're entirely right, it could absolutely be spun negatively in this Internet influencer era.

We need young people to like the sport. That's how it grows. I don't think it's gonna destroy the sport by any means.

I just think it would be bad bad PR. This all said, I doubt MJ goes anywhere lol
 
Charlie Spencer said:
If displaced Cup teams started their own series, they'd be the top level of competition, not NASCAR's sheep in wolves' clothing. People won't watch NASCAR in the same numbers. There are plenty of sports that have the best competitors in the world but that not enough people are interested enough in watching to make a TV contract viable.

Nobody shows up for tribute musical acts like they do for the original artists, and they don't play the top venues, especially when people had seen and remember the real thing.
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They can start their own series. Nothing is stopping them. Now finding venues that will be able to support their financial needs will be tough.



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StandOnIt said:
Duh. I'm a racing fan. I will watch and have watched lawnmower races, demo derbys, rock crawling competitions, ice racing, rally racing, bus racing, planes and boats, drags and dirt. I'll run out of room on the page. I gladly pay over 150+ bucks a year to watch my dirt midgets and sprinters. What Michael Jordan does or doesn't do isn't going to rock my world. I'm way more concerned that he doesn't screw up the racing.
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I'll be honest due to changes in my life I don't have the time I used to on weekends to watch races. But flip on flo a few nights a week and watch some random local race. The names of the drivers don't mean a lot to me.

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StandOnIt said:
He is to YOU. 20 years or more later the world changes. Younger fans haven't seen him play and with each passing year it grows. The tennis shoes mean less.
How many would tune in or come to see him play with current players? 7 time Jimmie Johnson one of the goats has a team. Anybody tuning in to see him specifically race? What is going on there is a smaller scale of the Jordan thing. He is not filling the stands or blowing the bottom out of the TV ratings.
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Him coming over and linking up with Denny was a coup for NASCAR. Being a six-time NBA Finals champ and the face of a franchise will get your face plastered everywhere. Even without him playing anymore, he's still a household name. The shoes are one of the brands my generation likes to "flex." What's nice about him and his brand coming over to NASCAR is that in doing so, he gives people who are/were fans of his, or fans of basketball in general, more incentive to come over and see why we love our sport so much. I love when these crossovers happen. My best friend, for instance, is a basketball guy. All day. He's the basketball fanatic, and I'm the racing fanatic in our social group. Little trivial fact: where our sporting interests bleed over happens to be the UFC. :D Anyway, when I told him that MJ got into NASCAR team ownership, he was intrigued - and no, he's not from Jordan's generation. We're young guys. :p
 
jaqua19 said:
Well that's exactly it. He's arguably the most famous athlete of all time.

It doesn't matter what he does for NASCAR. Losing him is a bigger issue.

When has NASCAR ever had a team owner who is lightyears bigger than the sport itself?
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Getting MJ into NASCAR meant very little but losing him would be catastrophic. Gotcha!
 
I wonder if having a small squadron of NASCAR fluffers producing demeaning comments about Jordan online will impact the court case?
 
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Truex_rox said:
What's nice about him and his brand coming over to NASCAR is that in doing so, he gives people who are/were fans of his, or fans of basketball in general, more incentive to come over and see why we love our sport so much.
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But does he actually bring anyone with him? Can it be documented? (Same questions regarding Pitbull, by the way.)

I confess I've never understood this effect. If Matt Kenseth, Jimmy Buffett, and David Attenborough had bought a basketball team, I wouldn't have given it a first glance. Are there that many of Jordan's fans that haven't already been exposed to motorsports enough to have formed an opinion?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You're right. I've never been a casual sports fan. I'm a fan of motorsports since I was 35 or so, and I started watching golf (not closely following it) around when I hit 55. I used to watch some NFL but gave that up years ago. That's it.


As I said earlier, this would be Jordan walking away of his own accord. I see how that could be spun negatively in this Internet influencer era. If I was casually reading an article, it would sound to me like he had a bad case of sour grapes.

Heck, before this suit, how many people even knew he was involved in NASCAR?
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Anything is possible. I found out earlier that I don’t like MJ. I’ve asked myself why I don’t like him but I haven’t answered myself yet. Stay tuned.

I could be completely wrong but as fans I don’t think we’ll see any on track differences regardless of how this issue is resolved. I think the best outcome would be some kind of settlement with gag orders that even Denny can’t break.
 
BobbyFord said:
The focus and discussion here should be on the lawsuit itself, not who MJ is or what is his legacy.
What really matters is did NASCAR (the company) break antitrust laws and if they did, how will this lawsuit impact NASCAR (the sport.)
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I am the lawyer here. The Court of Public Opinion is also important to the France family’s wallet. MJ can also influence that court.
 
AlTerego said:
I could be completely wrong but as fans I don’t think we’ll see any on track differences regardless of how this issue is resolved. I think the best outcome would be some kind of settlement with gag orders that even Denny can’t break.
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Agreed. Like others, I think this won't reach a courtroom.
 
wi_racefan said:
When compared to other sports I think nascar is ahead of others when it comes to transparency and fairness.

It's a private company they don't need to open their finances to the public.



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Transparency?

You can literally read the NFL, MLB, NBA, PGA, NHL and WNBA rule books.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I am the lawyer here. The Court of Public Opinion is also important to the France family’s wallet. MJ can also influence that court.
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See, this the point that I'm too out of touch to know whether or not to agree with. I don't see a Jordan departure as affecting TV viewership or ticket and merchandise sales. I don’t think anyone who was a race fan before 23XI will drop the sport if he leaves. I question whether he brought enough poeple to the sport that their absence would be noticeable. If they came and left solely because of his presence, they weren't fans of the sport anyway. As to sponsor concerns, I submit the same audience they've reached for a couple of decades will still be there.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
See, this the point that I'm too out of touch to know whether or not to agree with. I don't see a Jordan departure as affecting TV viewership or ticket and merchandise sales. I don’t think anyone who was a race fan before 23XI will drop the sport if he leaves. I question whether he brought enough poeple to the sport that their absence would be noticeable. If they came and left solely because of his presence, they weren't fans of the sport anyway. As to sponsor concerns, I submit the same audience they've reached for a couple of decades will still be there.
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23XI has sponsors who came to NASCAR for their team and Bubba. Jordan is also a major media figure with relationships with a lot of major corporations. He can definitely impact NASCAR’s attractiveness to sponsors.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Transparency?

You can literally read the NFL, MLB, NBA, PGA, NHL and WNBA rule books.
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Which are a fraction of the size of a nascar one. Nascar has to regulate the cars, the competition on the track, the competition on pit road, drivers and crew members. Not 22 players on a little 100 yard field.

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jaqua19 said:
But now they do, and that's exactly the point. Yes. You're entirely right, it could absolutely be spun negatively in this Internet influencer era.

We need young people to like the sport. That's how it grows. I don't think it's gonna destroy the sport by any means.

I just think it would be bad bad PR. This all said, I doubt MJ goes anywhere lol
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Young people don't care as much about a 61 year old man as you think they do.

The young people who care about the shoes don't care about the man, just like the young people who are currently playing Madden don't actually give a damn about John Madden.
 
wi_racefan said:
Which are a fraction of the size of a nascar one. Nascar has to regulate the cars, the competition on the track, the competition on pit road, drivers and crew members. Not 22 players on a little 100 yard field.

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I'm missing your point. What does the size of the rule book have to do with not making it publicly available? This is 2024. If entire encyclopedias are available online, there's no technological reason NASCAR's rule books can't be too.
 
wi_racefan said:
Which are a fraction of the size of a nascar one. Nascar has to regulate the cars, the competition on the track, the competition on pit road, drivers and crew members. Not 22 players on a little 100 yard field.

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What does size have to do with transparency? It takes the same amount of time to upload a large pdf as it does a small one.


StandOnIt said:
Simple games, simple rules. They also use a lot of public bond money for their operations. Once again stick and ball is not a family owned business as the sole proprietor.
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The leagues themselves don’t use public bond money, the teams do. Do we want to talk about the NC state government funding renovations to tracks that are used by NASCAR?

I don’t agree with filing the lawsuit but I also don’t agree with some of these arguments defending NASCAR.
 
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