23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

StandOnIt said:
Simple games, simple rules. They also use a lot of public bond money for their operations. Once again stick and ball is not a family owned business as the sole proprietor.
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Same question. I'm not asking about access to the books, I'm asking about access to the rules of the game. That's the transparency I'm interested in as a fan.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm missing your point. What does the size of the rule book have to do with not making it publicly available? This is 2024. If entire encyclopedias are available online, there's no technological reason NASCAR's rule books can't be too.
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I can see why they don't print it with the typical fan base mis interpreting the rules they are aware of.
 
aunty dive said:
Some apparently cannot, or refuse to grasp the concept of the term “cultural icon”.
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I have trouble with the term. Perhaps that's because it's been so over- and mis-used in the last couple of decades. It's been diluted to the point of meaninglessness.

Maybe my culture doesn't overlap much with the mainstream.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Same question. I'm not asking about access to the books, I'm asking about access to the rules of the game. That's the transparency I'm interested in as a fan.
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They change the rules as they go along. They’ve been doing it for decades. We found that out for sure last Sunday
 
It's obviously tempting for most to make this about the personalities involved and their positive or negative feelings toward them. Yeah, it's noteworthy that Michael Jordan of all sports figures is at the center of this. Beyond that, can we take a little wider view?

Somehow the members of the France family escape this scrutiny. We're not here debating how good of a guy Jim France is, how smartly he spends his money, and whether he and his kin deserve to keep the additional portions of revenue that the teams are seeking. Perhaps if that dope Brian were still in charge, we would be. Nevertheless, Jim and the other active members of the family wisely keep themselves out of the headlines and in the background. So it's "Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin vs. NASCAR", as if they're suing the entire sport, not "vs. the France family and their appointed executives".

Ultimately, this isn't about individuals. These are structural tensions that have been brewing since broadcast revenues skyrocketed. This showdown was inevitable in some form. The question was only what form it would take and who would pull the trigger.

Rick Hendrick said he was tired and thus signed. Richard Childress said he has too many people dependent on him to do anything else but sign under threat of deadline. He also stated that if the plaintiffs prevail, all team owners will benefit as he understands it. Doubtless some owners are more agreeable to the current terms than others. However, if this results in charter agreements or input more in line with what teams sought over the past few years, all will gladly accept.

I'll lay out my bias: I'm vaguely sympathetic to the team owners' plight. Not because I hate NASCAR. Because historically they have been on the short end of the stick in NASCAR'S unique structure. I don't favor a team-owned series by any means. Nobody else is going to own NASCAR anytime soon. However, I think a slightly wider distribution of power would be a net positive. I think the Frances having to be more accountable to some of the most crucial "stakeholders" could lead to better processes and decision making.

If that's wrong, I'd ask those who disagree to explain why?
 
gnomesayin said:
It's obviously tempting for most to make this about the personalities involved and their positive or negative feelings toward them. Yeah, it's noteworthy that Michael Jordan of all sports figures is at the center of this. Beyond that, can we take a little wider view?

Somehow the members of the France family escape this scrutiny. We're not here debating how good of a guy Jim France is, how smartly he spends his money, and whether he and his kin deserve to keep the additional portions of revenue that the teams are seeking. Perhaps if that dope Brian were still in charge, we would be. Nevertheless, Jim and the other active members of the family wisely keep themselves out of the headlines and in the background. So it's "Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin vs. NASCAR", as if they're suing the entire sport, not "vs. the France family and their appointed executives".

Ultimately, this isn't about individuals. These are structural tensions that have been brewing since broadcast revenues skyrocketed. This showdown was inevitable in some form. The question was only what form it would take and who would pull the trigger.

Rick Hendrick said he was tired and thus signed. Richard Childress said he has too many people dependent on him to do anything else but sign under threat of deadline. He also stated that if the plaintiffs prevail, all team owners will benefit as he understands it. Doubtless some owners are more agreeable to the current terms than others. However, if this results in charter agreements or input more in line with what teams sought over the past few years, all will gladly accept.

I'll lay out my bias: I'm vaguely sympathetic to the team owners' plight. Not because I hate NASCAR. Because historically they have been on the short end of the stick in NASCAR'S unique structure. I don't favor a team-owned series by any means. Nobody else is going to own NASCAR anytime soon. However, I think a slightly wider distribution of power would be a net positive. I think the Frances having to be more accountable to some of the most crucial "stakeholders" could lead to better processes and decision making.

If that's wrong, I'd ask those who disagree to explain why?
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I am sympathetic towards the owners but I also worry about what a lawsuit could mean for stock car racing. What if NASCAR has to divest certain parts of this portfolio? What if the tracks are bought by a venture capital firm who puts in the bare minimum? Who even knows what a remedy to NASCAR’s anti trust violations would look like and what it means for the sport. The France family is FAAAAAR from perfect but you could also do a lot worse.

I honestly wish NASCAR was run by a Commissioner who was hired by the mutual consent of the RTA and a driver’s union. The France family has too much power. But a court would never order that remedy.
 
The Nature Boy said:
He also cheated on his wife and had a gambling problem. He’s not a choir boy.
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I can overlook those failings. I'm not an angel either. But he’s not leveraging his fame to make money off those. I'm told he's famous and influential but has he used that influence to do anything besides make money?
I ask this seriously because I don't know. He may gave a charity that feeds millions every day. If so, great. I look forward to learning about it.
 
gnomesayin said:
It's obviously tempting for most to make this about the personalities involved and their positive or negative feelings toward them. Yeah, it's noteworthy that Michael Jordan of all sports figures is at the center of this. Beyond that, can we take a little wider view?

Somehow the members of the France family escape this scrutiny. We're not here debating how good of a guy Jim France is, how smartly he spends his money, and whether he and his kin deserve to keep the additional portions of revenue that the teams are seeking. Perhaps if that dope Brian were still in charge, we would be. Nevertheless, Jim and the other active members of the family wisely keep themselves out of the headlines and in the background. So it's "Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin vs. NASCAR", as if they're suing the entire sport, not "vs. the France family and their appointed executives".

Ultimately, this isn't about individuals. These are structural tensions that have been brewing since broadcast revenues skyrocketed. This showdown was inevitable in some form. The question was only what form it would take and who would pull the trigger.

Rick Hendrick said he was tired and thus signed. Richard Childress said he has too many people dependent on him to do anything else but sign under threat of deadline. He also stated that if the plaintiffs prevail, all team owners will benefit as he understands it. Doubtless some owners are more agreeable to the current terms than others. However, if this results in charter agreements or input more in line with what teams sought over the past few years, all will gladly accept.

I'll lay out my bias: I'm vaguely sympathetic to the team owners' plight. Not because I hate NASCAR. Because historically they have been on the short end of the stick in NASCAR'S unique structure. I don't favor a team-owned series by any means. Nobody else is going to own NASCAR anytime soon. However, I think a slightly wider distribution of power would be a net positive. I think the Frances having to be more accountable to some of the most crucial "stakeholders" could lead to better processes and decision making.

If that's wrong, I'd ask those who disagree to explain why?
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I have no problems with the way they run their business. It isn't perfect but nothing is.
BTW Richard Childress has said he thought with the new car he would have to lay off people. But what happened was that he had to hire more people because of defense contracts he obtained. These guys aren't hurting but what do you expect? If somebody wants to stick out their neck to possibly to help their situation what are they going to say? Now if they joined the lawsuit with some skin it would be different...but it isn't. Jordan and Front Row are it.
 
StandOnIt said:
I can see why they don't print it with the typical fan base mis interpreting the rules they are aware of.
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Not to mention that the rules are constantly evolving and changing throughout the year. You do realize that literally 100's of people sit around trying to come up with ways to get around the rules in nascar?

For the most part stick and ball rules are very black and white.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
wi_racefan said:
Not to mention that the rules are constantly evolving and changing throughout the year. You do realize that literally 100's of people sit around trying to come up with ways to get around the rules in nascar?
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Do you know what word processing software does? It lets you make changes to documents like rules books in just a couple of seconds. Then the 'file' can be 'published' electronically so everyone can all see the changes at the same time. The 'file' can also be 'locked' so anyone can read it without changing it. What will they think of next?
wi_racefan said:
They provide actual text and give the rule in every violation given
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That's not the same thing as providing the complete rule book. If you're teaching your kid to drive, do you want to be able to give him the drivers handbook from DMV, or just have him learn when the deputy writes a ticket?
 
The Nature Boy said:
The team owners are not independent contractors by any definition.
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In my case as I said I dealt with independent contractors for 7 years. There are certain specific rules to follow. In my case they had to have their own transportation, tools and everybody had to be insured. On My end I had prices I paid for specific jobs with a little wiggle depending on the complexity of the task. Nascar with it's pay structure is similar but on an much wider scale. No insurance or workman's comp was I responsible for.
 
You know what, I looked through the lawsuit text and it refers to the teams as independent contractors. I am admittedly surprised by that as I had a very hard time imagining what the deliverable was for the team aside from "show up to races and make the bare minimum attempt at completing the distance".
 
virtualbalboa said:
You know what, I looked through the lawsuit text and it refers to the teams as independent contractors. I am admittedly surprised by that as I had a very hard time imagining what the deliverable was for the team aside from "show up to races and make the bare minimum attempt at completing the distance".
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Damn, independent contractors you say.
 
StandOnIt said:
Now if they joined the lawsuit with some skin it would be different...but it isn't. Jordan and Front Row are it.
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It's not surprising that the same owners who were tired of the fight or sufficiently cowed by "sign by midnight or else" aren't about to take such a grave risk. There would be very little tangible gain, and the potential blowback facing 23XI and FRM is obvious to all.

The lawsuit isn't made stronger or weaker by number of plaintiffs. Virtually all sports related cases of this kind are filed by singular parties or small groups. The case still definitionally represents interests held by all team owners. They aren't suing to be awarded their own special charters with greater compensation and sway than the others.

If the plaintiffs lose, the consequences fall only upon the two teams who chose to stick their necks out. While I'm not particularly fond of Jordan or Hamlin as people, I have to respect the hutzpah. If the plaintiffs win in court or via settlement, it becomes a de facto class action win for the entire garage.
 
gnomesayin said:
It's not surprising that the same owners who were tired of the fight or sufficiently cowed by "sign by midnight or else" aren't about to take such a grave risk. There would be very little tangible gain, and the potential blowback facing 23XI and FRM is obvious to all.

The lawsuit isn't made stronger or weaker by number of plaintiffs. Virtually all sports related cases of this kind are filed by singular parties or small groups. The case still definitionally represents interests held by all team owners. They aren't suing to be awarded their own special charters with greater compensation and sway than the others.

If the plaintiffs lose, the consequences fall only upon the two teams who chose to stick their necks out. While I'm not particularly fond of Jordan or Hamlin as people, I have to respect the hutzpah. If the plaintiffs win in court or via settlement, it becomes a de facto class action win for the entire garage.
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That is what you believe. But having the majority of independent contractors in unison objecting to the terms of the contract and possibly threatening to leave the sport would have significant weight in a court of law and the court of public opinion.
 
Hikaru Kitsune said:
Young people don't care as much about a 61 year old man as you think they do.

The young people who care about the shoes don't care about the man, just like the young people who are currently playing Madden don't actually give a damn about John Madden.
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Maybe. But they care about that Jumpman Logo, which represents the man. So in a way imo, they do care about him by wearing the shoes, hats, and clothes. Look I’m not saying nascar will go belly up if he leaves, I think anyone with a brain knows that wouldn’t happen, not remotely close. But it would be a news story that gets picked up by many if he were to exit. Whether that’s good or bad, that’s depends on your prerogative but it’d be a deal if MJ up and left.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is what you believe. But having the majority of independent contractors in unison objecting to the terms of the contract and possibly threatening to leave the sport would have significant weight in a court of law and the court of public opinion.
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Law isn’t defined by the number of litigants.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is what you believe. But having the majority of independent contractors in unison objecting to the terms of the contract and possibly threatening to leave the sport would have significant weight in a court of law and the court of public opinion.
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That's at least partially true with regard to public opinion. As a matter of law? Not technically, but you could make an argument that a judge would be more swayed. But it's just not the form that these things take in practice. No, the rest of them weren't going to risk everything they have built for this, that is obvious.
 
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