23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Well, if there's one thing I learned in Vegas, the other teams are 100% with 23XI & FRM. And I don't mean just rooting for them. I mean, 100% active support. Depositions are going to be really fun! "Well gosh darn, I love NASCAR, I really love NASCAR, I have no interest in fighting them! But since I'm under oath and could go to jail if I lie, I guess I gotta talk about some secrets, gosh darn!"

And Jordan is all in. He has already committed to fund the team at the same level even if running without charters. Jenkins too I believe, but I don't know that as well as I do the Jordan piece. They will operate in 2025 with the same budget.

The sense is NASCAR will eventually settle before all their shadiness comes out (because it most certainly will), and figure out a way for teams to permanently own (buy) the charters. That's what this is all about.
 
wi_racefan said:
Nailed it!

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Not really. That's just gobbling up propaganda.

It will either be proved, or defended with facts, that NASCAR IS or ISNT violating antitrust laws, and the judge will make a ruling, if they don't settle.

The hearsay isn't relevant.
 
Conover said:
My point was to the statement being built on emotional drivel verses facts. I know lawyers will use both at times, but it seems awfully early to resort to that in statements.

My perspective is more from the business model itself. We have little knowledge of how this will play out, but this first phase will decide if the plaintiff’s get to go fishing for evidence via discovery, and if Hamcrap gets to keep receiving charter funds next season while they have no charter. If the judge rules for NASCAR in either or both, it makes things tough for super lawyer.
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NASCAR may be right? About what?

I just don't understand what people are even talking about.

There's no NASCAR being right.

There's only are they or aren't they breaking a law? That's it. There's nothing else to discuss lol
 
Allenbaba said:
Well, if there's one thing I learned in Vegas, the other teams are 100% with 23XI & FRM. And I don't mean just rooting for them. I mean, 100% active support. Depositions are going to be really fun! "Well gosh darn, I love NASCAR, I really love NASCAR, I have no interest in fighting them! But since I'm under oath and could go to jail if I lie, I guess I gotta talk about some secrets, gosh darn!"

And Jordan is all in. He has already committed to fund the team at the same level even if running without charters. Jenkins too I believe, but I don't know that as well as I do the Jordan piece. They will operate in 2025 with the same budget.

The sense is NASCAR will eventually settle before all their shadiness comes out (because it most certainly will), and figure out a way for teams to permanently own (buy) the charters. That's what this is all about.
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Well there you have it.

We can drop the narrative that all the other teams were fine, and that 23XI and FRM were on an island.

Our insider tells us the teams are all onboard.
 
jaqua19 said:
Well there you have it.

We can drop the narrative that all the other teams were fine, and that 23XI and FRM were on an island.

Our insider tells us the teams are all onboard.
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I mean, even if I didn't actually know these people, why would anyone assume otherwise? You'd have to be dense just to ignore the sheer logic of it. If your neighbor is willing to spend whatever it takes to fight your county over elevated property taxes and unfair land ownership issues, you can still be "fine" paying the taxes and living on the land you may or may not actually own, but trust me...you won't just be rooting for your neighbor to win, you'd be helping them how you can.
 
jaqua19 said:
Well there you have it.

We can drop the narrative that all the other teams were fine, and that 23XI and FRM were on an island.

Our insider tells us the teams are all onboard.
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I'm not sure how the other owners feel has any relevance to the lawsuit though.

They already voluntarily entered into contract with nascar. Now it's up to the legal system to determine if nascar is in any way acting outside the law.

IMO they're not and I'll stand by that. It's a private company and no one is forced to compete and they're definitely not forced to compete without compensation. Teams are allowed to leave at any time.

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wi_racefan said:
I'm not sure how the other owners feel has any relevance to the lawsuit though.

They already voluntarily entered into contract with nascar. Now it's up to the legal system to determine if nascar is in any way acting outside the law.

IMO they're not and I'll stand by that. It's a private company and no one is forced to compete and they're definitely not forced to compete without compensation. Teams are allowed to leave at any time.

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Yeah, it should be good when all of the other teams who signed break down in tears on the stand.
 
wi_racefan said:
I'm not sure how the other owners feel has any relevance to the lawsuit though.
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If any or all of them are called to testify, what they have to say and provide evidence of will be more than relevant.
wi_racefan said:
They already voluntarily entered into contract with nascar. Now it's up to the legal system to determine if nascar is in any way acting outside the law.

IMO they're not and I'll stand by that. It's a private company and no one is forced to compete and they're definitely not forced to compete without compensation. Teams are allowed to leave at any time.
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Discovery is yet to occur. No evidence of any kind has been presented to the court or to the public.

It isn’t possible to conclude their guilt or innocence without it … as you correctly state above “it’s up to the legal system to determine if NASCARi is in any way acting outside the law.”

If you were in the jury pool, you wouldn’t make it past the first examination question. The position you’re standing by is automatically disqualifying.
 
wi_racefan said:
They already voluntarily entered into contract with nascar.
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Is that what the teams will say if called in for questioning? I guess if they really didn't care, and were fine with the way things were, they would just say everything was great. Advantage NASCAR.

But, they do care. And so they won't be saying anything close to that. Because that's not exactly what happened. Which makes how they feel pretty relevant.
 
In other words. You are not getting a stinking injunction, see you in court.

NASCAR argues that the teams don't meet the requirements for an injunction because they can still compete as open teams and that any damages that they suffer if they prevail in the case can be covered monetarily.

NASCAR also argues that 23XI and FRM won’t win the case because NASCAR Cup racing is not the market when it comes to antitrust law, that there are other racing and entertainment options. They argue the exclusivity provisions the teams cite as violating antitrust laws are common across sports and pro-competitive because they make the product more appealing to broadcasters, fans and sponsors when compared to other entertainment options.

 
Charlie Spencer said:
I understand one point of the suit is teams have nowhere to go. Apparently they can't use several million dollars of cars for non-Cup racing.

I owe my soul to the company store.
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Pfft, they can build a late model, Trans Am, Imsa, Indy, winged sprint, midget, mod, for pennies on the dollar compared to a cup car. They CHOOSE to be in Cup.
Nascar has survived thru thick and thin for 75 years without Jordan and Hamlin crying every week.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I understand one point of the suit is teams have nowhere to go. Apparently they can't legally use several million dollars of cars for non-Cup racing.

I owe my soul to the company store.
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Why would nascar allow them to take the car and race it elsewhere? From my understanding nascar paid for the development of this car. Why develop a car so that another series can benefit from your hard work?

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wi_racefan said:
Why would nascar allow them to take the car and race it elsewhere? From my understanding nascar paid for the development of this car. Why develop a car so that another series can benefit from your hard work?
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I'm repeating what I understand the teams' position to be. I'm neither endorsing nor attacking it, just repeating it. Address the question to them.
 
wi_racefan said:
Why would nascar allow them to take the car and race it elsewhere? From my understanding nascar paid for the development of this car. Why develop a car so that another series can benefit from your hard work?

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They have beat that dead horse to death. Jordan wants to go back to 40 thousand dollar shock towers, a new engine every week and a different car for every track. Maybe he would be better suited for F-1.
 
aunty dive said:
If any or all of them are called to testify, what they have to say and provide evidence of will be more than relevant.

Discovery is yet to occur. No evidence of any kind has been presented to the court or to the public.

It isn’t possible to conclude their guilt or innocence without it … as you correctly state above “it’s up to the legal system to determine if NASCARi is in any way acting outside the law.”

If you were in the jury pool, you wouldn’t make it past the first examination question. The position you’re standing by is automatically disqualifying.
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Man, I hope we get to see the fine print. I know we won’t but I’d like to.
 
Allenbaba said:
The sense is NASCAR will eventually settle ... and figure out a way for teams to permanently own (buy) the charters. That's what this is all about.
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That's been my stated opinion since negotiations started.

The charters cost nothing for NASCAR to create. For those teams that still hold original-issue charters, sell them permanently for, oh, 20% average of the most recent sales. The rest already gave NASCAR a cut when they purchased. Mandate a 10% cut of future transfers. It will all be done out of court, everyone will quietly sign with an NDA longer than the rest of the contract combined, and we won't learn the details until some owner's posthumous memoirs are released.
 
Allenbaba said:
Well, if there's one thing I learned in Vegas, the other teams are 100% with 23XI & FRM. And I don't mean just rooting for them. I mean, 100% active support. Depositions are going to be really fun! "Well gosh darn, I love NASCAR, I really love NASCAR, I have no interest in fighting them! But since I'm under oath and could go to jail if I lie, I guess I gotta talk about some secrets, gosh darn!"

And Jordan is all in. He has already committed to fund the team at the same level even if running without charters. Jenkins too I believe, but I don't know that as well as I do the Jordan piece. They will operate in 2025 with the same budget.

The sense is NASCAR will eventually settle before all their shadiness comes out (because it most certainly will), and figure out a way for teams to permanently own (buy) the charters. That's what this is all about.
Click to expand...
My gut told me from the jump that this was a proxy war with 23XI and FRM taking the lead. If they prevail, all teams will benefit, not just them. And oh yeah, discovery will be a nightmare for NASCAR. Earlier I said I believe this will all be settled before the flag drops in Daytona, and I still think that.

Imma get my popcorn ready for this one...
 
KTMLew01 said:
Please reread your post. No bias here. Sure seems to me, you've made up your mind. Before any evidence has been presented. Anyone that has any criticism of NASCAR is always wrong. I don't understand that way of thinking.
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Oh not offended at all. You like portraying women, no problem…whatever floats your boat. And not making personal attacks. This is all about the business, and the status of a sport I love and follow.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
That's been my stated opinion since negotiations started.

The charters cost nothing for NASCAR to create. For those teams that still hold original-issue charters, sell them permanently for, oh, 20% average of the most recent sales. The rest already gave NASCAR a cut when they purchased. Mandate a 10% cut of future transfers. It will all be done out of court, everyone will quietly sign with an NDA longer than the rest of the contract combined, and we won't learn the details until some owner's posthumous memoirs are released.
Click to expand...
Exactly, I could see this developing precisely this way. Allenbaba knows more than we do, and he gets it from the drivers side. NASCAR does have a side and say in this relative to testimony, and legal decisions will be made that allow or don’t allow select evidence or info. At the end of the day, it IS all about the charters, as I’ve said. If they must exist forever,ore like franchises, NASCAR wants their money from the teams for the free charters originally issued.
 
StandOnIt said:
Pfft, they can build a late model, Trans Am, Imsa, Indy, winged sprint, midget, mod, for pennies on the dollar compared to a cup car. They CHOOSE to be in Cup.
Nascar has survived thru thick and thin for 75 years without Jordan and Hamlin crying every week.
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I still think you on Nascar payroll. Awfully certain about everything. I'm not sure if it's daylight here in NC right now @ 4:32PM. Some might say it's early dusk. Opinions are just that. Opinions.

We are allowed to have ours. Doesn't make us wrong or taking a crap on the beloved Nascar.
 
Conover said:
Oh not offended at all. You like portraying women, no problem…whatever floats your boat. And not making personal attacks. This is all about the business, and the status of a sport I love and follow.
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portraying women?

Explain. If I use a Tomato am I "portraying" fruit?

You keep using that word.jpg
 
Charter trading should be managed from within. That when a Charter is given up. It should go back to NASCAR, and NASCAR or an independent group manage the sale and transfer of each Charter.
 
Conover said:
Exactly, I could see this developing precisely this way. Allenbaba knows more than we do, and he gets it from the drivers side. NASCAR does have a side and say in this relative to testimony, and legal decisions will be made that allow or don’t allow select evidence or info. At the end of the day, it IS all about the charters, as I’ve said. If they must exist forever,ore like franchises, NASCAR wants their money from the teams for the free charters originally issued.
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Thank you for inadvertently answering my question I asked probably 30 pages ago.

We are well past this point of the discussion but when you get multiple charters for free it makes it a heck of a lot easier to just sign and accept the agreement compared to some of of the teams that have recently paid 20/30/40 million for theirs.
 
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