23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

KTMLew01 said:
Explain the difference.

23xi BOUGHT their Charters. Now, as of Jan 1st, no Charter.

Where did it go? Without Charter, how much is "it" worth with "it" being The Team/Business? Not guaranteed to be able to start races. Nascar owns the cars. Exactly what is anyone buying?
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See posts 1732, 1741, and 1746
 
aunty dive said:
I didn’t ask for proof. I asked for your opinion.
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Once again I have no idea if they would increase exponentially or not. There isn't any situation to compare it to only opinions. Again until it happens in Nascar, not stick and ball examples but Nascar's, nobody will know.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Nascar owns the cars.
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No, they don’t.

NASCAR owns the design and subsequent re-designs of the Nextgen car and of each of its component parts. Ownership of that valuable Intellectual Property enables the sanctioning body to dictate where components are manufactured and by whom, when and where the cars can be used, for what purpose and who can use them.

All of this will be in the public realm in due course.
 
aunty dive said:
No, they don’t.

NASCAR owns the design and subsequent re-designs of the Nextgen car and of each of its component parts. Ownership of that valuable Intellectual Property enables the sanctioning body to dictate where components are manufactured and by whom, when and where the cars can be used, for what purpose and who can use them.

All of this will be in the public realm in due course.
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Your definition of own and mine is different. Read what you wrote. Can a team sell a car?
 
NASCAR has never been this transparent (exposed.)
I suspect this has something to do with their decision to remove the “release clause.”
 
Chat GT says they can sell. IDK what that info is based on.

can a NASCAR team sell a next gen car to another team

Yes, a NASCAR team can sell a Next Gen car to another team. This is often done to help newer or smaller teams acquire competitive equipment without the need to build a car from scratch. The Next Gen cars are designed with standardized parts, making it easier for teams to trade or sell cars and components among themselves.
 
KTMLew01 said:
Your definition of own and mine is different. Read what you wrote. Can a team sell a car?
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My opinions and definitions of just about everything are different than yours.

I have no need to re-read what I wrote. In answer to your question … yes, a team can sell a Nextgen car. That car cannot be used for any purpose not specifically authorized by NASCAR. You could buy one, put it on display in the shed and sell tickets to interested parties, so long as you obtain permission from the Intellectual Property holder.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'm not sure what you find weird about it. It's a standard monopoly lawsuit. They're common in the business world. This one just happens to involve the business of motorsports entertainment.
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Oh right. Yeah forgot I know all about standard monopoly lawsuits.. my bad lol

The weird part to me is why are there only 2 teams who refused to sign? If it's that bad why aren't there more teams involved in this?

Like I said before, they knew what they signed up for. Or I guess they didn't. Idk, seems weird lol
 
KTMLew01 said:
Your definition of own and mine is different. Read what you wrote. Can a team sell a car?
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Yes. The buyer can only use it under the conditions specified in NASCAR's licensing of the intellectual property behind the car, i.e., it cano only be raced a sanctioned Cup event.

Intellectual property restrictions are quite common in business. Technically, none of us own the software we're using to carry on this conversation. We can sell our devices but the software was never ours.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
The weird part to me is why are there only 2 teams who refused to sign? If it's that bad why aren't there more teams involved in this?
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Why do people pay 'protection' money? Fear of retribution. Unwillingness to stand together.

In court, the number is irrelevant. If 36 houses are robbed and only 4 call the cops, saying 'The other people didn't complain' isn't a defense. Illegal actions are illegal, regardless of how few people are affected.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Why do people pay 'protection' money? Fear of retribution. Unwillingness to stand together.

In court, the number is irrelevant. If 36 houses are robbed and only 4 call the cops, saying 'The other people didn't complain' isn't a defense. Illegal actions are illegal, regardless of how few people are affected.
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Well I guess we'll find out whether or not it is 🤷‍♂️
 
Well we could talk about just how bad the degree of what 23XL and Front Row are losing their cases.
We can talk about the act of altruistic mercy that possesed Nascar to move heaven and earth to allow both of those dirty outliers to compete next year without large scarlet O's on their cars.
We can guess how fast that red rabbit Reddick will jump ship if they don't get charters, and ponder who would take his soiled, bloodied, team hopping ass for a start. Then we can dig up plenty about the shifty, greedy rapacious predator that calls itself Nascar.
 
StandOnIt said:
Well we could talk about just how bad the degree of what 23XL and Front Row are losing their cases.
We can talk about the act of altruistic mercy that possesed Nascar to move heaven and earth to allow both of those dirty outliers to compete next year without large scarlet O's on their cars.
We can guess how fast that red rabbit Reddick will jump ship if they don't get charters, and ponder who would take his soiled, bloodied, team hopping ass for a start. Then we can dig up plenty about the shifty, greedy rapacious predator that calls itself Nascar.
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Turnstones vs. Killdeer is looking better by the minute.
 
StandOnIt said:
Well we could talk about just how bad the degree of what 23XL and Front Row are losing their cases.
We can talk about the act of altruistic mercy that possesed Nascar to move heaven and earth to allow both of those dirty outliers to compete next year without large scarlet O's on their cars.
We can guess how fast that red rabbit Reddick will jump ship if they don't get charters, and ponder who would take his soiled, bloodied, team hopping ass for a start. Then we can dig up plenty about the shifty, greedy rapacious predator that calls itself Nascar.
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I knew I could count on you. 😎
 
I need a minute.

Seem to have misplaced my Internet forum anti-trust lawyer hat.
 
I've been watching non stop Perry Mason re-runs since this case broke, I am ready for anything. I've been thinking that Brian put them up to it as revenge after they took him out of the will. He will be the anonymous secret weapon witness for the plaintiff's and break the case wide open when he tells all.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Turnstones vs. Killdeer is looking better by the minute.
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Ruddy Turnstone

1731888599302.jpeg


Killdeer
1731888632660.jpeg
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I remember chasing killdeer around my grandfather's place when I was a kid.. they looked hurt so I thought I could catch them.. then they did that whole fly at you and turn at the last second thing and I was done having fun with the birds
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The famous 'broken wing' behavior. They're trying to lure potential threats away from their nests or chicks. 'Follow me, I'm an easy meal!' Once the threat has followed far enough away, that wing miraculously heals. 'Sucker.'
 
aunty dive said:
What should we argue about today?
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Well, Aunty, we don't know jacksh*t about the facts of the case, and we don't know jacksh*t about the law, so arguing about the merits of the lawsuit seems a tall order. We haven't read the documents, which have not been released publicly. And most of us haven't studied law.

So far, all we've been able to do is to follow our individual biases as to which party we like or dislike. We offer convoluted and ill-informed rationale for why our chosen party has the righteous position, while asserting that the other party is just trying to game the system in a greedy, un-holy money grab. Please, no more, we've done quite enough of that...

I pretty much agree with @Whizzer in post #1678...
Whizzer said:
That doesn't read as much like a real concern for what 23XI and RJR are trying to do as it sends the message of hoping they fail so Denny haters can blame and laugh at him.

These are not stupid people who created this litigation. They are not going into this legal action blindly but feel they have a legitimate opportunity to make things better for all teams because how this ends up will directly affect all teams and not just 23XI and RJR. It would seem that is something race fans would support.

In reading the various responses to this thread find so many of those who criticize, or gloat over possible failure of this effort, is done mostly because of the, "hate Denny factor."
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And Whizzer didn't say it, but there is a lot of resentment toward Michael Jordan among some Nascar fans, including some here at R-F. So it's not just the "Hate Denny" factor at work. Various people have expressed resentment that TV cameras show MJ on the pit wall more often than some other team owners, that he is an outsider and new to Nascar, that he has so much money that Nascar is pocket change to him, blah, blah, blah.

It seems clear to me that this lawsuit would get more fan support if it came from a popular Chevrolet team and driver, rather than Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin both wearing Toyota jackets and caps.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Well, Aunty, we don't know jacksh*t about the facts of the case, and we don't know jacksh*t about the law, so arguing about the merits of the lawsuit seems a tall order. We haven't read the documents, which have not been released publicly. And most of us haven't studied law.
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You ARE familiar with how to use the Internet, right?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The famous 'broken wing' behavior. They're trying to lure potential threats away from their nests or chicks. 'Follow me, I'm an easy meal!' Once the threat has followed far enough away, that wing miraculously heals. 'Sucker.'
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Are those the characteristics of natural birds or the bird-bots that were originally approved only for surveillance.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You ARE familiar with how to use the Internet, right?
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@LewTheShoe , let me clarify.

I realize in hindsight my comment could be interpreted as suggesting you should look this stuff up yourself. That is NOT what I meant.

I meant knowing jacksh*t has never been required to post on the Internet, and it's pointless to expect otherwise. The comment was indeed intended to be snotty, just a different flavor of snot. My apologies for any confusion.
 
Leave for a couple days and this one seemed to go off the rails....



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Charlie Spencer said:
I'm working on a way to merge this with the Deegan thread. The resulting mass of posts should be enough to collapse into a cyber black hole and implode the Internet.
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I'm lost why are we talking about birds?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
LewTheShoe brought up a good point. I suppose I could be looking at it from a different perspective if say a new team owner, like a Mario Andretti was suing Nascar. I would be more sympathetic probably. But again, looking at his gripes and reasoning I think although I really like Mario, they don't have a winning case.
If Mario was in the same situation, I don't think he would sue in the first place, he knows how the racing business is run and all of the players in the sport. Here's the kicker, he wouldn't confuse it with stick and ball.
 
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