23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

StandOnIt said:
I bet we see Cole Custer in the Haas Automation car at Daytona. I have no idea what you are talking about. What I do know is that 23XI and Front Row are charterless at the present time. Charter sale don't go thru without NAscar's approval, I know that also.
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StandOnIt said:
You can be perfectly honest. Free means it didn't cost the teams a thing. But what it accomplished was create value where there was little.
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Correct, but you make it sound like NASCAR made some kind of sacrifice in the charter deal, and they didn't, in fact it gave them power they didn't even HAVE before the deal.
 
StandOnIt said:
Well there ya go. Beings that you don't know squat about the deal or lack of one you can think anything you choose.
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So you think that Michael Jordan and company just wrote Gene a check and let him cash it with no guarantee that they would ever get anything of value in return? Seems unlikely to me.
 
Formerjackman said:
So you think that Michael Jordan and company just wrote Gene a check and let him cash it with no guarantee that they would ever get anything of value in return? Seems unlikely to me.
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As long as you are blowing smoke, Jordan could have put a refundable or not refundable deposit down to hold the Charter until the case is solved. The options are endless.
 
aunty dive said:
A properly written sales agreement would void the sale if the transfer was not approved by the sanctioning body.

Money to change hands post-approval. This is not rocket science.
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Nonsense. With my sister being a real estate broker I have been on the end of hours of realtor talk about refundable and non refundable deposits all the way to contingent contracts on selling their house or some other real property or other value stock etc. contracts. You are grasping at straws. Nobody but the principals know what the deal is and they ain't saying. That isn't what they are arguing about in the first place.
 
No real estate is changing hands here. Your anecdotal “participation” is irrelevant.

Agreements for sale are commonplace in the business world when high value assets change hands.
 
My opinion.. NASCARs charters are basically NASCAR holding spots for a car to race. A team "owns" a charter IMO is the same as me making a reservation at a restaurant and then saying I own the table. They don't own anything, they reserve a spot to race in NASCARs races. If they don't want to follow the rules of the restaurant then maybe they should eat somewhere else.
 
aunty dive said:
No real estate is changing hands here. Your anecdotal “participation” is irrelevant.

Agreements for sale are commonplace in the business world when high value assets change hands.
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Thanks for making my point. Lawyers can write just about anything in a contract.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
My opinion.. NASCARs charters are basically NASCAR holding spots for a car to race. A team "owns" a charter IMO is the same as me making a reservation at a restaurant and then saying I own the table. They don't own anything, they reserve a spot to race in NASCARs races. If they don't want to follow the rules of the restaurant then maybe they should eat somewhere else.
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Pretty much so. They then can sell their equipment and their charter(s) if they don't like the agreements. but instead they built a look at me racing shop and then decided they wanted more money from Nascar and with no leverage whatsoever so far rolled the dice. It's not going well for them.
 
aunty dive said:
How are they then able to sell their dinner reservations for millions of dollars?
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Because some restaurants are very expensive.. they're the ones who decided where to eat.. plus they get paid to be there.. and even more if they do really well at eating their dinner. They still can't take the table with them when they go home unfortunately.
 
StandOnIt said:
As long as you are blowing smoke, Jordan could have put a refundable or not refundable deposit down to hold the Charter until the case is solved. The options are endless.
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Possible, but I would sooner believe payment due upon sale approval. Either way, I seriously doubt Gene is funding his race team with money for a sale that so far hasn't, and may NEVER happen.
 
I found Kelley's interview on Herm and Schrader very interesting in regards to the charters and their prices.

Basically said they values are overinflated because in a business sense they really have little value due to the fact that race teams generally don't make a profit.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
My opinion.. NASCARs charters are basically NASCAR holding spots for a car to race. A team "owns" a charter IMO is the same as me making a reservation at a restaurant and then saying I own the table. They don't own anything, they reserve a spot to race in NASCARs races. If they don't want to follow the rules of the restaurant then maybe they should eat somewhere else.
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Charters also impact payouts. Do you know of restaurant reservations that impact the price of the meal?
 
wi_racefan said:
I found Kelley's interview on Herm and Schrader very interesting in regards to the charters and their prices.

Basically said they values are overinflated because in a business sense they really have little value due to the fact that race teams generally don't make a profit.
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This is why this business is so different from “franchised” stick and ball leagues. NFL teams make a good profit due to a salary cap on player expenses. That controls the most tempting overspending factor owners would face without the limits enforced.

NASCAR teams spend $$$ for speed. Engineering, driver salaries, team personnel, testing, etc. Those expenses are hard for owners to control, as they tend to throw as much money into this as their sponsor money will allow. Then factor in all the facilities, support personnel (marketing, administrative, maintenance, etc), transportation. Some teams put a LOT of $$ into these (state of the art newer facilities, corporate jets and helicopters), others much more modest.

Bottom line; most NASCAR teams are spending plenty of money, enjoying very nice homes and toys, and not seeing much left over for net profit.
 
Conover said:
Bottom line; most NASCAR teams are spending plenty of money, enjoying very nice homes and toys, and not seeing much left over for net profit.
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I think there is *a lot* left over for profit. The problem is that it is all getting sucked into a black hole that is the France family coffers in Daytona Beach, Florida.

Meanwhile, the team owners (i.e. the actual racers that put on the show every week) have suffered more than 50% attrition just in the period since the charters were issued in 2016. Of the 36 cars assigned charters in 2016, 20 of them have gone out of business due to the non-viable business model that exists in Nascar cup series racing... while Jim France and Lesa Kennedy France continue to rake it in by the truckload. Sorry, but that ain't right.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I think there is *a lot* left over for profit. The problem is that it is all getting sucked into a black hole that is the France family coffers in Daytona Beach, Florida.

Meanwhile, the team owners (i.e. the actual racers that put on the show every week) have suffered more than 50% attrition just in the period since the charters were issued in 2016. Of the 36 cars assigned charters in 2016, 20 of them have gone out of business due to the non-viable business model that exists in Nascar cup series racing... while Jim France and Lesa Kennedy France continue to rake it in by the truckload. Sorry, but that ain't right.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.
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The argument can still be made the only one controlling how much teams spend is the teams themselves. They'd all make profit if they didn't spend 20 million a year running a race car.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I think there is *a lot* left over for profit. The problem is that it is all getting sucked into a black hole that is the France family coffers in Daytona Beach, Florida.

Meanwhile, the team owners (i.e. the actual racers that put on the show every week) have suffered more than 50% attrition just in the period since the charters were issued in 2016. Of the 36 cars assigned charters in 2016, 20 of them have gone out of business due to the non-viable business model that exists in Nascar cup series racing... while Jim France and Lesa Kennedy France continue to rake it in by the truckload. Sorry, but that ain't right.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.
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Nascar's and SMI's proffit and loss statements were public record until recently when both Nascar and SMI went to solely owned businesses. They weren't making a killing then and I doubt they are making one now. Deathbedders in that same period of time, were yapping daily about losing seating, spiraling ratings, crappy racing and the end of the sport. Now it seems many deathbedders can't stand the idea of Nascar making a profit and improving the competition in the racing series.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar's and SMI's proffit and loss statements were public record until recently when both Nascar and SMI went to solely owned businesses. They weren't making a killing then and I doubt they are making one now. Deathbedders in that same period of time, were yapping daily about losing seating, spiraling ratings, crappy racing and the end of the sport. Now it seems many deathbedders can't stand the idea of Nascar making a profit and improving the competition in the racing series.
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Exactly. Also, Lew speculates much without evidence while grouping all those teams into one giant assumptive reason for no longer being in racing (evil bad NASCAR). The reality is much broader and nuanced for each team. Sponsor money (or lack thereof), opportunity to sell their charter and “cash in” on a rented asset, poor performance leading to no further owner interest, smaller pockets to pour into the “money equals speed” machine, you name it. If collectively we were hearing every team blaming their demise on the same things Jordan and company allege, over all these years, I’m sure the other current owners would have joined the lawsuit verses signing onto the new agreement.
 
Conover said:
Exactly. Also, Lew speculates much without evidence while grouping all those teams into one giant assumptive reason for no longer being in racing (evil bad NASCAR). The reality is much broader and nuanced for each team. Sponsor money (or lack thereof), opportunity to sell their charter and “cash in” on a rented asset, poor performance leading to no further owner interest, smaller pockets to pour into the “money equals speed” machine, you name it. If collectively we were hearing every team blaming their demise on the same things Jordan and company allege, over all these years, I’m sure the other current owners would have joined the lawsuit verses signing onto the new agreement.
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Throw in a few start and parks while you are at it Conover.
 
Conover said:
Exactly. Also, Lew speculates much without evidence while grouping all those teams into one giant assumptive reason for no longer being in racing (evil bad NASCAR). The reality is much broader and nuanced for each team. Sponsor money (or lack thereof), opportunity to sell their charter and “cash in” on a rented asset, poor performance leading to no further owner interest, smaller pockets to pour into the “money equals speed” machine, you name it. If collectively we were hearing every team blaming their demise on the same things Jordan and company allege, over all these years, I’m sure the other current owners would have joined the lawsuit verses signing onto the new agreement.
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Throw in a few start and parks while you are at it Conover. Lew also didn't mention that many of those teams were enriched by the charter system when they folded in an era when Nascar was declining in popularity.
 
aunty dive said:
NASCAR was a publicly traded company?
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No, the sanctioning body / owner of the Cup Series has never disclosed revenues, expenses, or profits. ISC used to be publicly traded, and also SMI, so track ownership data is available. But never the real financial mother lode, i.e. ownership of the Cup series.

We do know Nascar historically skimmed 10% of the media rights, and the 2016 charters maintained that 10% share. Under the new TV deal, a 10% cut is a cool $110 million per year. We also know Nascar maintains dozens... perhaps hundreds... of sponsorship deals. That revenue has never been disclosed, either.

Sanction fees for each race, Air Titan fees, hard card fees, etc etc etc.
 
Apparently some want to go down this rabbit hole. I posted this a while back that goes pretty deeply in-depth with Nascar's and some of the teams revenues. Here is a brief synopsis of sponsorship income below. The linked article below is much longer and covers incomes from other areas.

www.forbes.com

New Report Gives A Peek Under Nascar’s Financial Hood

Nascar no longer publicly reports revenue, having gone private in 2019. But a recent report provides a look into the series' financial health, along with some other surprising data.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com


NASCAR Sponsorship Highlights

• According to data taken from the GlobalData Sport Intelligence Centre on June 12, 2023, there are 407 active sponsorship deals of NASCAR teams.

• The total active sponsorships for 2023 are estimated to be worth $767.25 million.

• There are 229 brands engaged in sponsorship deals with NASCAR teams.

• Brands from 27 different sectors are engaged in sponsorship deals with NASCAR teams.

• The Industrial goods & services sector ranks as the most active sponsoring sector with 67 deals.

• The Automotive sector ranks as the highest value sector by sponsorship spend, generating $162.91 million annually.

• Chevrolet is the biggest spend brand on sponsorships with NASCAR teams with $48.05 million annually. Chevrolet also has the greatest number of deals with NASCAR teams for the 2023 season, with eight.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I think there is *a lot* left over for profit. The problem is that it is all getting sucked into a black hole that is the France family coffers in Daytona Beach, Florida.

Meanwhile, the team owners (i.e. the actual racers that put on the show every week) have suffered more than 50% attrition just in the period since the charters were issued in 2016. Of the 36 cars assigned charters in 2016, 20 of them have gone out of business due to the non-viable business model that exists in Nascar cup series racing... while Jim France and Lesa Kennedy France continue to rake it in by the truckload. Sorry, but that ain't right.

#1, 42 Ganassi. Out of Nascar 2022.
#4, 10, 14 Stewart-Haas. Downsized in 2025.
#7 Baldwin. Out of Nascar 2017. Sold again 2021 & 2022.
#9 Petty. Downsized... leased 2017, sold 2019.
#13 Germain. Out of Nascar 2021.
#15, 55 Waltrip. Out of Nascar 2016.
#16 Roush Fenway. Downsized 2017.
#23 BK Racing Out of Nascar 2019. Sold again 2020 & 2022.
#27 RCR. Downsized 2018. Sold again 2022.
#32 GoFas Racing. Out of Nascar 2017.
#33 Circle Sport. Multiple sales 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2024.
#47 JTG-D, Sold in late 2024, Geshecter out of Nascar.
#51 HScott. Out of Nascar 2017, sold again 2021.
#62 Premium. Leased 2016, sold 2018 & 2021.
#78 Furniture Row. Out of Nascar 2019, sold again 2021.
#83 BK Racing. Downsized 2017, sold again 2018.
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Teams were entering and leaving the sport long before charters came along. For this to be significant, we need the same statistics for the eight years prior to the charters. How many teams packed it during those years?

As to 'attrition', someone has come along to replace each of those teams.
 
Conover said:
Sponsor money (or lack thereof), opportunity to sell their charter and “cash in” on a rented asset, poor performance leading to no further owner interest, smaller pockets to pour into the “money equals speed” machine, you name it.
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StandOnIt said:
Throw in a few start and parks while you are at it Conover. Lew also didn't mention that many of those teams were enriched by the charter system when they folded in an era when Nascar was declining in popularity.
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And NASCAR profits had nothing to do with why the #78 left.
 
LewTheShoe said:
No, the sanctioning body / owner of the Cup Series has never disclosed revenues, expenses, or profits. ISC used to be publicly traded, and also SMI, so track ownership data is available. But never the real financial mother lode, i.e. ownership of the Cup series.
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True.

I assume most are able to recognize this, but in point of fact, an article by a Forbes.com contributor (not Forbes staff, but a guy who writes blog posts that get published on Forbes.com and is subject to few editorial standards) does not meet the definition of publicly disclosed earnings statements. These are not and never have been available for NASCAR itself.
 
gnomesayin said:
True.

I assume most are able to recognize this, but in point of fact, an article by a Forbes.com contributor (not Forbes staff, but a guy who writes blog posts that get published on Forbes.com and is subject to few editorial standards) does not meet the definition of publicly disclosed earnings statements. These are not and never have been available for NASCAR itself.
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Lol, continuing to rub the ears of the rabbit, here is one quarterly financial report, there are many others BTW, that was published when Nascar (ISC) had stockholders and wasn't a privately held company.

www.globenewswire.com

International Speedway Corporation Reports Financial Results for the Fourth Quarter and Full-Year of Fiscal 2018

Provides 2019 Full-Year Financial Guidance...
www.globenewswire.com www.globenewswire.com
 
Here is another poor downtrodden X team owner, a victim of the evil Nascar charter empire, with his statement for all to witness.

 
StandOnIt said:
Lol, continuing to rub the ears of the rabbit, here is one quarterly financial report, there are many others BTW, that was published when Nascar (ISC) had stockholders and wasn't a privately held company.

www.globenewswire.com

International Speedway Corporation Reports Financial Results for the Fourth Quarter and Full-Year of Fiscal 2018

Provides 2019 Full-Year Financial Guidance...
www.globenewswire.com www.globenewswire.com
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As you know, that is from when ISC operated as an independent entity from NASCAR. NASCAR's revenues and profits have never been a matter of public record. You represented otherwise, and the inability to just admit that and move on isn't anyone else's fault.
 
gnomesayin said:
As you know, that is from when ISC operated as an independent entity from NASCAR. NASCAR's revenues and profits have never been a matter of public record. You represented otherwise, and the inability to just admit that and move on isn't anyone else's fault.
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No sir, that didn't happen. I just posted a public earnings statement, required by law. They were a public company at that time. I think you mean the France family earnings.
 
StandOnIt said:
No sir, that didn't happen. I just posted a public earnings statement, required by law. They were a public company at that time. I think you mean the France family earnings.
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You're incorrect. ISC was an independent publicly traded corporation prior to NASCAR purchasing ISC in 2019. NASCAR has always been privately owned and has never released earnings statements.

This is becoming tedious and embarrassing.
 
gnomesayin said:
You're incorrect. ISC was an independent publicly traded corporation prior to NASCAR purchasing ISC in 2019. NASCAR has always been privately owned and has never released earnings statements.

This is becoming tedious and embarrassing.
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What part of France family earnings (Nascar) did you not understand?
 
StandOnIt said:
What part of France family earnings (Nascar) did you not understand?
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NASCAR is privately owned by the France Family. As such, they are not required by law to provide financial information to anyone.

ISC was a corporation selling stock on NASDAQ, which by law, requires provision of an annual financial statement to the shareholders.

The France Family purchased ISC and placed it under the France Family umbrella, a sole ownership, thus removing it as a corporation trading stock on NASDAQ.

The France Family is not a corporation therefore is under no obligation to expose their financials which, since the purchase of ISC, .no longer requires them to provide an annual financial report.

If you have evidence of a financial statement from the France Family that is a public document, please provide the source.
 
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