Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by StandOnIt, Feb 19, 2019.
Hopefully I'll be dead before the 50th anniversary of the Aztec.
Well, like it or not, IF NASCAR does move back to production based engines, the engines combinations are going to be VASTLY different from each other and the ONLY way it would work is with some serious BoP adjustments. I think it's easier to get the engines on par between manufacturers than the aerodynamics might be if they go back to more production based bodies. .
I see no good reason to do either... production engines, production bodies, or production chassis. I've always said "No thanks!" to people suggesting that top-level racing should be showroom stock racing. Like virtually every other top-level racing series, Nascar Cup racing should be single-purpose vehicles designed and engineered to race. I've seen no evidence, facts, or persuasive logic to change my mind on that.
Well, the decline in interest in the sport may indicate that a lot of people no longer see the relevance of the current car. The bodies of the cars are cartoonish facsimiles of production cars and the engines are more expensive and more powerful than what is needed. Like so many other things in the sport's history that have gone away, I think the current car has outlived its usefulness and it's just time to move on.
a point to make is that I think the manufacturers do. The Ford bunch has said they want a chance to make the Mustang more realistic than it already is. There are plenty of examples they are racing in other series of the Mustang in racing trim. But these guys are the same ones who thought a real plastic grill was a good idea to start out with on the gen 6 car until they continued to get their tails beat at the track. I agree in part with what Lew is saying, these cars live at 180 so screwing up the aero a lot is going to screw things up pretty badly for some if they think that is the way to go. A realistic looking car in last place won't be around long. Ford seemed to have learned their lesson with the Mustang though, fast right out of the box so far.
From what I've read, there's no indication the engine formula will be wildly different. Probably something smaller, with some production elements. But something along the lines of a 5.0L V8. A lot of what they (at least Ford) are looking for is some more changes to the styling cues (more of a fastback shape) and suspension stuff (IRS).
They didn't with Toyota. WE were in the Truck series before WE committed to Xfinity and Cup. I am sure that there was a handshake agreement upon truck entry, but you have to remember that Toyota had to gauge interest (uh resentment) before committing. I could listen to Lee White tell the story of meeting with Bill France Jr. to seal the deal on Xfinity and Cup a million times, and never get bored.
Chevy won Daytona last year.
I don't care how many come, but if they come, they need to stay and commit. Period. NASCAR needs to be careful here. If you make it easy to enter, you make it easy to leave IMO.
I want to "Like" this a million times. Bingo.
Well, I don't know how you would get production elements on engines that have ZERO connection to production engines, not a single part. Of the makes, only GM produces an engine even REMOTELY like a NASCAR engine, and it would STILL be a stretch to call them similar. None of the other manufacturers that could potentially join NASCAR have a engine even remotely close to a NASCAR engine either. As late as 2006, I could have taken numerous parts off a Chevy SB2 NASCAR engine and physically bolted them to the engine in my Chevelle. The current Chevy NASCAR engine might as well be from outer space.
At Daytona it really doesn't matter what your racing. It looks like the biggest line of any manufacturer has the advantage. last lap it is all about who is fighting with who.
I don't know about that. We have heard so much about Ford horsepower, but I will say that those races cannot be an evaluation of a car....and this was my point. Mr. @StandOnIt was making the point that the Mustang was off to a good start, and my point was that the Camaro won Daytona in '18, and then look what happened.
there were the duals before that and and they had speed at the Vegas test. Like I said, they are off to a good start with the new car.
Ford knew what they were doing. There's a reason the thing looks so similar to the Fusion.
Duels are the same thing in terms of car evaluation, and I think that Chevy was fast with the new Camaro in the Vegas test last year. Plate and a test. Not saying the Ford won't be fine, but there is no way to tell if the start is good. Plus, with the new package, who knows what to expect.....
Yeah, the Fusion was hated until OSS. Oh my, how quickly perceptions change.
yeah I heard the OSS was made by Ford
Well, Kez himself cites it as Ford's savior after the "Rude Awakening."
Oh I thought it was the "about time"
I'm good with that. Nineteen wins later, and a Manufacturers Championship, I'd say Ford's time is up.
I wouldn't draw any conclusions about ANY car one way or another until at least 6-7 races go by, and then you throw in the wildcard of the new aero package. I don't think anyone is REALLY sure of what they have right now.
Define 'commit'. Five years? Ten? How do you enforce it?
"OSS"!!! EVERYBODY DRINK!
Seems like a huge investment as there are no turnkey set ups for a new manufacturer to enter NASCAR. The satellite style business model like Barney's FRR with JGR support (after years of doing business before that) is not going to be there for a new manufacturer where they can go get a manu
I can't see any business (team/s) working with manufacturers going into this without 5 year and 10 year milestone plans, not just for the iterative process of building on their own successes/failures out of the gate, but also for spreading capital improvements and other initial expenditures across multiple years for that business. Savvy Accountants and Lawyers are more the experts for success before any manufacturer engineers and race entrepreneurs can push their race teams into the money pit.
BUT, those same savvy accountants and lawyers will have an exit strategy for these manufacturers and teams as well.
So Charlie is correct to question the enforcement side -- as teams throwing the match to their haulers or facility and telling NASCAR they're not playing anymore is something to consider to avoid such divorce dramas...
The fact that NASCAR exists because of stock cars used to bootleg booze isn't evidence enough?
"Single-purpose vehicles designed and engineered to race" is what F1 is. They have the best engineering teams in the world. The problem is that they might as well be fighter planes because the racing is a boring parade. NASCAR never used to have engineers until Kulwicki got involved.
The only reason we have gotten away from production based bodies, engines, chassis, is for safety reasons or BoP reasons. I certainly don't want to sacrifice the amazing safety that cup cars have today, but I believe that we have strayed so far away from the production body that people have lost interest.
I've said this many times before, no one wants to watch precision stock car racing. The purpose of using a stock car is because they could win on sunday and sell on monday. Since all the cars are basically the same now, there isn't even a hint of this phrase being applicable to NASCAR and that is truly what is killing NASCAR. That, and the fact that the cars can no longer lean on each other.
Dodge's last run was 12 years, '01 to '12. That looks like commitment to me.
As you noted, nobody would get in for two or three years anyway. The start-up costs are too high to justify participating for that short a period. It's a lot easier to come and go in other series with a lower development price tag. I don't see lack of commitment being an issue.
That was my thought. With 'single-purpose racing machines', where do we draw the line? When do we say the 'stock cars' we're racing no longer have enough in common with the stock cars being sold? Some features of the race cars are way ahead of what's on the street, and others are way behind.
I'd say there's too much difference already. Is this a stock car series or not? Maybe 'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' doesn't matter when people can't buy what won anyway. Does even the most casual fan think these are Camaros and Camrys and Mustangs? If the goal is to boost manufacturer visibility, why hang model names on them at all?
Just got word that NASCAR will introduce an 18” wheel for the Gen 7 model. Compared to the 15” wheels run now.
Source or 'Tongue out' emoji, please.
I just hope if they change the wheel size, we can get away from those God awful looking black painted wheels. I don't understand why ANYBODY runs those ugly things. If NASCAR wants to make the cars look more relevant, it would be a great time to go with some nice alloy wheels.
Getting closer to an IMSA look
So is management.
I assume cost has something to do with it. They're only going to look good for a few laps after they're new, before the brake dust accumulates. The painted wheels Penske uses are usually flashy enough for me. But I mostly don't look at wheels anyway, so I probably don't know what I'm missing.
The wheels Penske runs for the most part are a VAST improvement over the black ones, but isn't it time to move on from steel wheels, at least in the Cup series? Only the crappiest base model street cars are still available with them. As for me, wheels are one of the FIRST things I notice about a car.
More evidence I'm not a car guy. I just assumed all wheels on street cars came as steel with hubcaps from the factory, and all alloy were after-market. I obviously don't even know what I'm seeing, even on those rare occasions when I happen to look.
What are allow wheels made of? What metals are combined?
Penske dumped Dodge because they would not sign a new 1 year contract. Ford gave it to him and look now they have Penske and SHR as their main teams. Best decision Ford made in the last 20 years.
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