23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

One thing that crossed my mind is several of the teams that signed have owners in longstanding. They understand how the series works and realized that the deal put before them was as good as it was going to get.

I don’t know what the 2 teams that didn’t sign found unpalatable. Maybe NASCAR needs to change or maybe NASCAR is not the right business for MJ & Jenkins.
 
AlTerego said:
One thing that crossed my mind is several of the teams that signed have owners in longstanding. They understand how the series works and realized that the deal put before them was as good as it was going to get.

I don’t know what the 2 teams that didn’t sign found unpalatable. Maybe NASCAR needs to change or maybe NASCAR is not the right business for MJ & Jenkins.
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Jenkins has been there for 20 years and was preparing to expand to a 3 car operation, as was 23X1. I’m pretty sure both know how things work . The reasons for not signing are buried in the 105 page document.

Will NASCAR change its mind and agree to negotiate? If they won’t, will this group of highly successful business people fold like a cheap tent in a stiff breeze or will they take their arguments to a judge?

Ask the NCAA lawyers how they liked butting heads with Jeffrey Kessler.
 
I'd like to know NASCAR's reasoning behind not assigning the charters to the teams permanently. I thought the purpose was to give the teams a commodity they could sell as a return on investment. To accomplish that, potential buyers have to know the charter isn't going to be yanked out from under them in a few years. Having that threat hanging overhead negates the purpose of creating them.

I'd bet that if NASCAR had agreed to that one from the beginning, all the teams would have gladly let the other issues go and signed months ago.
 
The seller is the payee.

The rumor mill says “the document” includes a provision that cuts NASCAR in for a slice of every sale going forward.
 
aunty dive said:
The seller is the payee.

The rumor mill says “the document” includes a provision that cuts NASCAR in for a slice of every sale going forward.
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So I guess I don't understand how I can buy something from a team but NASCAR can declare it worthless without compensation. I'm not a contract lawyer.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'd like to know NASCAR's reasoning behind not assigning the charters to the teams permanently. I thought the purpose was to give the teams a commodity they could sell as a return on investment. To accomplish that, potential buyers have to know the charter isn't going to be yanked out from under them in a few years. Having that threat hanging overhead negates the purpose of creating them.

I'd bet that if NASCAR had agreed to that one from the beginning, all the teams would have gladly let the other issues go and signed months ago.
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Guy on u-tube tried to argue with me about purpose of charters. His take was, just about guaranteed starting spot. Told him exactly what you said. He says nope. Has nothing to do with that. I said, we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Wonder if the car per team limit is a factor here? Yeah I know Denny has been bloviating about the money part, but Hendrick and JGR got a huge gift of being (allegedly) the only teams that will be allowed to field four teams. If 23XI are ambitious enough to want to get to 4 charters/teams, this provision could be another sticking point.

Also, it's sleazy AF to send a last best offer to teams at 5pm on a Saturday and give them to midnight to sign. I believe anyone who signed could successfully argue they signed under duress and null any "contract".
 
Hawaii808 said:
Wonder if the car per team limit is a factor here? Yeah I know Denny has been bloviating about the money part, but Hendrick and JGR got a huge gift of being (allegedly) the only teams that will be allowed to field four teams. If 23XI are ambitious enough to want to get to 4 charters/teams, this provision could be another sticking point.

Also, it's sleazy AF to send a last best offer to teams at 5pm on a Saturday and give them to midnight to sign. I believe anyone who signed could successfully argue they signed under duress and null any "contract".
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They have been negotiating for two years. There has to be a line drawn sometime. There isn't any limit of how many cars you can run in Xfinity. In Cup it has been four cars max for years.
 
aunty dive said:
Power and control.
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I'm not sure how keeping them non-permanent really helps NASCAR in any appreciable way though. NASCAR NEEDS car owners to buy into the business model, and this does nothing to advance that. If they revoked all the current charters, do they REALLY think the would find another group of suckers to jump in and fill the void, knowing that they would be doing so either with no charter, or one that has no real value? As I have repeatedly said, I was never in favor of them in the first place, but once the can of worms got opened, I don't think you can go back, especially concerning the teams that laid out actual money for them. I'm rather disappointed that the teams didn't all stick together on this. Things like the revenue split will ALWAYS be a matter for debate, but the charters are fundamental to the whole model.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'd like to know NASCAR's reasoning behind not assigning the charters to the teams permanently. I thought the purpose was to give the teams a commodity they could sell as a return on investment. To accomplish that, potential buyers have to know the charter isn't going to be yanked out from under them in a few years. Having that threat hanging overhead negates the purpose of creating them.

I'd bet that if NASCAR had agreed to that one from the beginning, all the teams would have gladly let the other issues go and signed months ago.
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It's pretty simple if you keep the charters on a contract, then you have control. If you make them permanent and the owners don't like the next offer it becomes a huge legal battle because the teams now own rights to something without expiration.

Currently teams rights end at a given date and they're no longer part of the party unless they agree to the new terms.

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aunty dive said:
Imagine, if you will, the fallout that would ensue if 23X1’s Tyler Reddick made it into the final 4 and went on to win in Phoenix.
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Yeah Dennis and his team over there would look pretty dumb for winning a championship and then throwing a fit that the series is poorly run

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Hawaii808 said:
Wonder if the car per team limit is a factor here? Yeah I know Denny has been bloviating about the money part, but Hendrick and JGR got a huge gift of being (allegedly) the only teams that will be allowed to field four teams. If 23XI are ambitious enough to want to get to 4 charters/teams, this provision could be another sticking point.

Also, it's sleazy AF to send a last best offer to teams at 5pm on a Saturday and give them to midnight to sign. I believe anyone who signed could successfully argue they signed under duress and null any "contract".
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What's sleazy? You have to have a deadline and the last thing they want is it overshadowing the playoffs. They've been going at this for 2 years already....

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wi_racefan said:
What's sleazy? You have to have a deadline and the last thing they want is it overshadowing the playoffs. They've been going at this for 2 years already....

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Then the deadline should have been three months ago, with a one month notification. If you put something in front of ME and tell me I have until midnight to sign it, I'm not signing it no matter what it is. I'm REALLY curious what would have happened if EVERYONE refused to sign. This isn't Talladega 1969 where you can just fill the field with scrubs and cars from another series. The lawsuits would keep NASCAR tied up in knots for years. Remember the Ferko lawsuit?
 
Formerjackman said:
Then the deadline should have been three months ago, with a one month notification. If you put something in front of ME and tell me I have until midnight to sign it, I'm not signing it no matter what it is. I'm REALLY curious what would have happened if EVERYONE refused to sign. This isn't Talladega 1969 where you can just fill the field with scrubs and cars from another series. The lawsuits would keep NASCAR tied up in knots for years. Remember the Ferko lawsuit?
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You have to remember nascar owns the tracks and the cars.

You guys don't want to play? Fine we'll find someone else to take our minimum of 5-8 million a year in guaranteed money.

Thing is most drivers have a lifestyle that won't allow them to be sitting at home next year. The amount of houses for sale around lake Norman would be funny.

To me this is no different than the big plants and paper mills I go to that always threaten strike. Look around the parking lot at everyone's new truck and talk to them about their fishing boats. How long you thing these guys will go without a paycheck?

If 23XI isn't racing next year what do you think they'll do to be able to have the money to pay for "Air speed" ?

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Formerjackman said:
Denny is only the public mouthpiece. MJ and Polk are what matters. I dislike Denny as much as anyone does. but I always give credit to those willing to challenge the status quo and group think.

I haven't trusted their vision any farther than I could throw it for about 25 years know. As far as I'm concerned, Bill Jr. was the last person in Daytona Beach that had a damn clue. I wouldn't hire any of the current bunch to manage a Jiffy Lube.
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I don't understand why anyone would trust the leadership in NASCAR.

It's like a businessman who purchases a restaurant, makes the menu, but has never trained or worked as a chef
 
jaqua19 said:
I don't understand why anyone would trust the leadership in NASCAR.

It's like a businessman who purchases a restaurant, makes the menu, but has never trained or worked as a chef
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Yet people trust short track owners all across the county on a weekly basis?

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wi_racefan said:
You have to remember nascar owns the tracks and the cars.

You guys don't want to play? Fine we'll find someone else to take our minimum of 5-8 million a year in guaranteed money.

Thing is most drivers have a lifestyle that won't allow them to be sitting at home next year. The amount of houses for sale around lake Norman would be funny.

To me this is no different than the big plants and paper mills I go to that always threaten strike. Look around the parking lot at everyone's new truck and talk to them about their fishing boats. How long you thing these guys will go without a paycheck?

If 23XI isn't racing next year what do you think they'll do to be able to have the money to pay for "Air speed" ?

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The problem is you'll have to invest millions to be able to compete for that 5-8 millon. How many guys will be willing to do that after seeing what NASCAR did to the previous bunch? Who's going to build all the engines? I don't see Hendrick, Childress or Roush wanting to do business with the group that just screwed them over. Some people have mentioned Xfinity trams. How many teams aren't owned by or mostly dependent on existing Cup tesms? The drivers have little if any leverage here, sucks to be them, unless they want to start their own team. As much of a loss it would be for the existing owners, I don't think it's going to bankrupt any of them, least of all Jordan.
 
Formerjackman said:
The problem is you'll have to invest millions to be able to compete for that 5-8 millon. How many guys will be willing to do that after seeing what NASCAR did to the previous bunch? Who's going to build all the engines? I don't see Hendrick, Childress or Roush wanting to do business with the group that just screwed them over. Some people have mentioned Xfinity trams. How many teams aren't owned by or mostly dependent on existing Cup tesms? The drivers have little if any leverage here, sucks to be them, unless they want to start their own team. As much of a loss it would be for the existing owners, I don't think it's going to bankrupt any of them, least of all Jordan.
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I think engines wouldn't be any issue at all. These engine shops are just like any other business. If you need money at the end of the day a paying customer is a paying customer. You think HMS wants to be selling engines the way it is? Nope...but someone has to pay the bill

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Charlie Spencer said:
I'm guessing the TV contract has something to say about that. The networks aren't going to pay top dollar to show a Cup race full of Xfinity teams and drivers.
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I'm not sure how it could have any stipulations on the talent. Nascar can't guarantee who's going to be in the race anyway. It's not like Nascar got a pay cut when Chase broke his leg.

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wi_racefan said:
I'm not sure how it could have any stipulations on the talent. Nascar can't guarantee who's going to be in the race anyway. It's not like Nascar got a pay cut when Chase broke his leg.

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The networks know there will be team and driver turnover from year to year. I'd look at the average turnover for a decade or so. Toss in a fudge factor and mandate a number of chartered teams and drivers from the previous season be represented in the field. For every new driver beyond that number, the check gets smaller.

If I can come up with a method off the top of my head, I guarantee the network lawyers have it covered somehow.
 
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