23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

wi_racefan said:
Nope the two are independent of one another

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I'll guarantee you RWR has spent more money to remain competitive within the last two years than they did previously. The question is, why is that?and the answer is, to remain competitive.
They are not independent one from the other. They are correlated. In the NASCAR series today, you cannot remain competitive if you maintain spending levels you did in previous years.
 
What I didn't fully realize until listening to the tear down was after they refused to sign the charter agreement and opened the lawsuit nascar removed the charter agreement offer to the 2 organizations and said we choose not to conduct business with these people.

So basically, it sounds like the teams want an injunction to modify the current charter agreement and then would sign it. NASCAR is saying there's no longer an agreement offer on the table.

This could get sticky quickly!

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StandOnIt said:
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I don't understand the grounds for this appeal. It wasn't a jury trial, so they can't claim prejudice or tampering. And there's no new evidence. So I guess this amounts to I want a second opinion?



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wi_racefan said:
What I didn't fully realize until listening to the tear down was after they refused to sign the charter agreement and opened the lawsuit nascar removed the charter agreement offer to the 2 organizations and said we choose not to conduct business with these people.

So basically, it sounds like the teams want an injunction to modify the current charter agreement and then would sign it. NASCAR is saying there's no longer an agreement offer on the table.

This could get sticky quickly!

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I said early on NASCAR would kick them to the curb. Still say IF they race anymore, will be without a charter. Zero chance Nascar will allow them a "win" on this whole deal. Nascar only plays hardball. Take your toys and leave, we don't want you here.
 
KTMLew01 said:
I said early on NASCAR would kick them to the curb. Still say IF they race anymore, will be without a charter. Zero chance Nascar will allow them a "win" on this whole deal. Nascar only plays hardball. Take your toys and leave, we don't want you here.
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Not true. They either have to win their case and get the contract amended or sign the agreement and play by Nascar's rules. Do neither and run as non chartered teams or go down the road.
 
StandOnIt said:
Not true. They either have to win their case and get the contract amended or sign the agreement and play by Nascar's rules. Do neither and run as non chartered teams or go down the road.
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Doesn't sound like signing the agreement is even an option without winning the lawsuit. Nascar withdrew the charter offers from 23XI and FRM basically saying we don't want to be in business with someone that is or has sued us.

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wi_racefan said:
Doesn't sound like signing the agreement is even an option without winning the lawsuit. Nascar withdrew the charter offers from 23XI and FRM basically saying we don't want to be in business with someone that is or has sued us.

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Not true. Phelps himself said publicly they want 23XI to remain in Nascar.
 
wi_racefan said:
I don't understand the grounds for this appeal. It wasn't a jury trial, so they can't claim prejudice or tampering. And there's no new evidence. So I guess this amounts to I want a second opinion?
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The trial is yet to begin. Juries are not seated for pre-trial motion hearings.

The appeals process is intended to protect the rights and interests of both sides. Judges sometimes err. Good lawyers do not file frivolous motions. You can be sure that had the decision gone the other way, NASCAR would have found grounds and appealed immediately.
 
KTMLew01 said:
I said early on NASCAR would kick them to the curb. Still say IF they race anymore, will be without a charter. Zero chance Nascar will allow them a "win" on this whole deal. Nascar only plays hardball. Take your toys and leave, we don't want you here.
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The trial hasn’t begun yet.

The judicial system will work this out, not NASCAR.
 
wi_racefan said:
Doesn't sound like signing the agreement is even an option without winning the lawsuit. Nascar withdrew the charter offers from 23XI and FRM basically saying we don't want to be in business with someone that is or has sued us.

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That's my take on what we've heard from both sides.
 
wi_racefan said:
I don't understand the grounds for this appeal. It wasn't a jury trial, so they can't claim prejudice or tampering. And there's no new evidence. So I guess this amounts to I want a second opinion?
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It's the modern model of litigation. Appeal everything as many times and as far up the court system as you can. Stall long enough, and eventually you can claim there isn't time to try the case before you're inaugurated.

I wonder what the half-life is of this element?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
It's the modern model of litigation. Appeal everything as many times and as far up the court system as you can. Stall long enough, and eventually you can claim there isn't time to try the case before you're inaugurated.

I wonder what the half-life is of this element?
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It pretty key if they can be able to run with charters. That would soften the blow some what. If they aren't able to race with them Front Row isn't going to last long.
 
StandOnIt said:
If they aren't able to race with them Front Row isn't going to last long.
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Jenkins owns / operates more than 260 Taco Bell outlets and dozens more KFC, A & W and Long John Silver restaurants, a logistics company, a bunch of real estate, etc., etc.

He seems to know what he’s doing.
 
aunty dive said:
Jenkins owns / operates more than 260 Taco Bell outlets and dozens more KFC, A & W and Long John Silver restaurants, a logistics company, a bunch of real estate, etc., etc.

He seems to know what he’s doing.
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I guess you missed the part where he said he wasn't going to last too long without charters.
 
StandOnIt said:
I guess you missed the part where he said he wasn't going to last too long without charters.
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I guess I did.

“Front Row Motorsports owner Bob Jenkins concurred, saying they were committed to their teams and were staffing them in preparation for 2025.

“We’re full speed ahead,” Jenkins said.”


“Jenkins told AP that the two teams stand to miss out on $45 million in combined revenue if they compete as un-chartered teams. But, he's willing to do so for Front Row because he believes the case against NASCAR is winnable.”
 
aunty dive said:
I guess I did.

“Front Row Motorsports owner Bob Jenkins concurred, saying they were committed to their teams and were staffing them in preparation for 2025.

“We’re full speed ahead,” Jenkins said.”


“Jenkins told AP that the two teams stand to miss out on $45 million in combined revenue if they compete as un-chartered teams. But, he's willing to do so for Front Row because he believes the case against NASCAR is winnable.”
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I recall it was two or three weeks ago, after the linked article. Of course, there's the question of whether he was trying to influence the public. I'm at the point where I'm not taking either side's word until their under oath.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I recall it was two or three weeks ago, after the linked article. Of course, there's the question of whether he was trying to influence the public. I'm at the point where I'm not taking either side's word until their under oath.
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The thing I can admire about nascar on this one is they're not saying anything unless they have to.

In a fight the quiet guy is always the one you need to watch out for.

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wi_racefan said:
The thing I can admire about nascar on this one is they're not saying anything unless they have to.
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Experience and corporate discipline. NASCAR has been in lawsuits before. It pays lawyers to handle all this, and everyone in a position of authority knows to shut up and let them do what they're paid for.

The teams have (much?) less experience with this type of court action. They aren't leaving it to the hired help. Jenkins and Jordan aren't too loose-lipped but Denny has a driver's background of publicly expressing his opinions. Having a podcast to fill just encourages him to spout off.

Time will tell how much affect either approach has on the decision.
 
Kind of looks like nascar is gearing up for this one.

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Is Denny about to go down in nascar history as the guy who started a team with Michael Jordan with the intention of uprooting the system but instead took a potentially top tier team and threw it all away (and also never won a championship for himself)?

If they lose their charters because of this I'm putting them above Michael Waltrip racing for bone head team of the century in my books
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Is Denny about to go down in nascar history as the guy who started a team with Michael Jordan with the intention of uprooting the system but instead took a potentially top tier team and threw it all away (and also never won a championship for himself)?

If they lose their charters because of this I'm putting them above Michael Waltrip racing for bone head team of the century in my books
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Holy punctuation, Batman!
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Is Denny about to go down in nascar history as the guy who started a team with Michael Jordan with the intention of uprooting the system but instead took a potentially top tier team and threw it all away (and also never won a championship for himself)?

If they lose their charters because of this I'm putting them above Michael Waltrip racing for bone head team of the century in my books
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Already surrendered their charters. If they race next season will be as an open car.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Is Denny about to go down in nascar history as the guy who started a team with Michael Jordan with the intention of uprooting the system but instead took a potentially top tier team and threw it all away (and also never won a championship for himself)?

If they lose their charters because of this I'm putting them above Michael Waltrip racing for bone head team of the century in my books
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That doesn't read as much like a real concern for what 23XI and RJR are trying to do as it sends the message of hoping they fail so Denny haters can blame and laugh at him.

These are not stupid people who created this litigation. They are not going into this legal action blindly but feel they have a legitimate opportunity to make things better for all teams because how this ends up will directly affect all teams and not just 23XI and RJR. It would seem that is something race fans would support.

In reading the various responses to this thread find so many of those who criticize, or gloat over possible failure of this effort, is done mostly because of the, "hate Denny factor."
 
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