23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

Blaze said:
The same leadership that gave us the playoffs you hate so much?
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Formerjackman said:
So you would risk 40 million dollars on the good will of an organization that can't even manage their own stupid damaged vehicle policy?
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Managing competition and managing the business aren't the same thing, or done by the same people.

The above statement should not be interpreted as my endorsing or condemning NASCAR's current business practices.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Managing competition and managing the business aren't the same thing, or done by the same people.

The above statement should not be interpreted as my endorsing or condemning NASCAR's current business practices.
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I still stand by every single thing else I said in that post. If this was Richard or Rick doing the lawsuit, he would be all rah rah go go go for them.
 
Formerjackman said:
So you would risk 40 million dollars on the good will of an organization that can't even manage their own stupid damaged vehicle policy?
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Nascar didn't set that price the teams did. Have to remember nascar GAVE these to the teams.

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Charlie Spencer said:
Managing competition and managing the business aren't the same thing, or done by the same people.

The above statement should not be interpreted as my endorsing or condemning NASCAR's current business practices.
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Incompetence is incompetence. Most of the time not only do I feel like they have the wrong answer, I'm not sure they even know what the question is. The people administering the races are put there by the people running NASCAR. Ultimately the buck stops with people with the last names France and Kennedy and in my opinion they are failing miserably, which is such a shame, because I used to have high regard for some of them.
 
It's not a question of not liking it, it's a question of where your thought process on the subject is. Now I know. You still have faith in people that I lost faith in LONG ago.
 
wi_racefan said:
Nascar didn't set that price the teams did. Have to remember nascar GAVE these to the teams.

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They "gave" them to the original charter holders. Others have invested large sums of money for them, because NASCAR made it financially unattractive to compete otherwise. They took a leap of faith in NASCAR, and NASCAR has failed to reward that faith in them.
 
Formerjackman said:
They "gave" them to the original charter holders. Others have invested large sums of money for them, because NASCAR made it financially unattractive to compete otherwise. They took a leap of faith in NASCAR, and NASCAR has failed to reward that faith in them.
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But once again they invested those large sums of money based on a dream of the future. Nascar made no promises here.

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wi_racefan said:
But once again they invested those large sums of money based on a dream of the future. Nascar made no promises here.

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And NASCAR never discouraged it either. They were all to happy to bask in the glow of people willing to invest that kind of money in the sport when it suited THEIR needs.
 
Formerjackman said:
They "gave" them to the original charter holders. Others have invested large sums of money for them, because NASCAR made it financially unattractive to compete otherwise. They took a leap of faith in NASCAR, and NASCAR has failed to reward that faith in them.
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Well again. That goes to attitude. On the other hand Nascar has had no trouble finding teams that want to invest in the Charters. The first clue for those who doubt is the fact that the Charters have steadily risen in value. So don't try to tell me all of these people are dumb for doing so.
Now the fools that invested behind Truth Social, that is another story. Investing in someone who had gone bankrupt 6 times and the stock has bottomed out at pennies on the dollar.
Bottom line it is about backing winners and not losers when investing.
 
jaqua19 said:
Yeah, I've wondered this as well, lawsuit aside.

MJ isn't as rich as the France family, but he's absolutely bigger than NASCAR, which hasn't happened before.

I've seen people refute this by referencing the limits of even Dale Sr's pull, but Dale isn't MJ. Michael Jordan is the most famous athlete of all time, and probably still one of the most famous people in the world.

Maybe the Frances don't care. But getting sued by MJ, and then having MJ walk away from the sport is a historic fail of epic proportions. NASCAR will never be respected by sports fans who aren't already invested in the sport of its something MJ sued and then walked away from.

This doesn't have any lawsuit implication, imo, but NASCAR's public image could be at the mercy of what MJ does. He's bigger than NASCAR. Much bigger.
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Agreed. 100%. Let us not forget that MJ and Polk are epic business people. They have built a freaking empire amongst stories of high paid athletes living under bridges because their money was mismanaged. The other piece is this....the elephant in the room.....A man who is black disrupting a historically southern/regional sport won't go over well with some. Let's disrupt. Michael Jordan is a game changer. I love game changers.
 
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Revman said:
Agreed. 100%. Let us not forget that MJ and Polk are epic business people. They have built a freaking empire amongst stories of high paid athletes living under bridges because their money was mismanaged. The other piece is this....the elephant in the room.....A man who is black disrupting a historically southern/regional sport won't go over well with some. Let's disrupt. Michael Jordan is a game changer. I love game changers.
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And the France family are a bunch of hayseeds. lol. Good luck. Pulling the race card a bit early, that is usually after a loss.
 
StandOnIt said:
And the France family are a bunch of hayseeds. lol. Good luck. Pulling the race card a bit early, that is usually after a loss.
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Not hayseeds, but perhaps silver spooners living on the laurels of what Bill Sr. and Bill Jr. actually built, and not really getting it. The old adage is that the third generation is usually the one that drives a family business into the ground. Jim France isn't third generation, but he's young enough to be technically called generation 2.5. As for the race card, everybody here knows that it's 100% pure horse**** as it applies to this case, but this is where NASCAR is going to have to tread lightly because there there is a huge segment of the media and the population as a whole that would love nothing more than for it to BE true, and facts will matter little, and it's worse now in the era of A.I. generated social media garbage that passes as real reporting.
 
Formerjackman said:
Not hayseeds, but perhaps silver spooners living on the laurels of what Bill Sr. and Bill Jr. actually built, and not really getting it. The old adage is that the third generation is usually the one that drives a family business into the ground. Jim France isn't third generation, but he's young enough to be technically called generation 2.5. As for the race card, everybody here knows that it's 100% pure horse**** as it applies to this case, but this is where NASCAR is going to have to tread lightly because there there is a huge segment of the media and the population as a whole that would love nothing more than for it to BE true, and facts will matter little, and it's worse now in the era of A.I. generated social media garbage that passes as real reporting.
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Applying for a job at ancestry.com or what? I doubt wives tales will work in a court of law IF it even gets to that point.
 
Revman said:
It is very interesting. I think MJ could walk away, and be just fine. Not sure what the hell would be done with Airspeed....I am sure Michael could turn it into something. I think the fundamental question must be asked (in honor of Big Bill).....Who needs who more? I am not sure that MJ needs NASCAR as much as NASCAR needs MJ.
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I’m not sure what measurable differences MJ has made to NASCAR. I’m not saying he has not made measurable concrete changes just that IDK what they are. In any case neither one needs each other.
Revman said:
Given the way NASCAR allegedly screws its teams, I wonder what The Felon, Coach, and Penske's take is on all of this? The Felon, in particular, I would think could bring NASCAR to its knees by walking away, and going Indy Car if they wanted. Why the hell do these guys stick around, and...if the narrative is true....lose money?
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I can’t see NASCAR on its knees if any 1 of the three left. Now if all three of them left that would be indicative of much bigger problem and Nascar would be on the ropes.
jaqua19 said:
Yeah, I've wondered this as well, lawsuit aside.
MJ isn't as rich as the France family, but he's absolutely bigger than NASCAR, which hasn't happened before.
I've seen people refute this by referencing the limits of even Dale Sr's pull, but Dale isn't MJ. Michael Jordan is the most famous athlete of all time, and probably still one of the most famous people in the world.

Maybe the Frances don't care. But getting sued by MJ, and then having MJ walk away from the sport is a historic fail of epic proportions. NASCAR will never be respected by sports fans who aren't already invested in the sport of its something MJ sued and then walked away from.

This doesn't have any lawsuit implication, imo, but NASCAR's public image could be at the mercy of what MJ does. He's bigger than NASCAR. Much bigger.
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JMO but NASCAR already has a poor image with a lot of its fans so I can’t see MJ’s absence making things measurably better or worse. Now if MJ had come to the series and put more butts in seats, more viewers from home and was lowering Nascar’s demographic he’d be essential.
wi_racefan said:
I do find it strange that people think nascar can't afford to lose MJ. Really? What is he bringing that's holding the sport up right now?

Most of the young, new, fans that they're trying to attract don't refer to MJ as the GOAT, rather the shoe guy

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Good points. Like you I can’t figure out what notable things MJ has brought to NASCAR’s party.
wi_racefan said:
But once again they invested those large sums of money based on a dream of the future. Nascar made no promises here.

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That’s another thing I can’t figure out. NASCAR has always been clear that they own the charters but teams could buy, sell or lease them with NASCAR’s approval during the current broadcast deal.
 
AlTerego said:
I can’t see NASCAR on its knees if any 1 of the three left. Now if all three of them left that would be indicative of much bigger problem and Nascar would be on the ropes.
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I guess that is my point....all three are accomplished businessmen.....MJ/Polk are accomplished businessmen.....Why do those three take it in the nuts while MJ says, "No!"

AlTerego said:
I’m not sure what measurable differences MJ has made to NASCAR. I’m not saying he has not made measurable concrete changes just that IDK what they are. In any case neither one needs each other.
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Every single time MJ is at the track, the camera is on him. The others? Not so much....we don't find out if they are there until victory lane....

StandOnIt said:
And the France family are a bunch of hayseeds. lol. Good luck. Pulling the race card a bit early, that is usually after a loss.
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Statement of fact....you call it a "card." Regardless. I love it. MJ walked into the teeth of racism. He hasn't blinked. Historical. Courageous. Epic. A little history lesson for you:

www.espn.com

Michael Jordan's road to being a NASCAR owner, 14 years in the making

Michael Jordan is now a NASCAR team owner. His teaming up with Denny Hamlin and Bubba Wallace isn't as strange as it might sound.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
 
Revman said:
Every single time MJ is at the track, the camera is on him. The others? Not so much....we don't find out if they are there until victory lane....
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Maybe it's because the others are there most / all of the time?

Does TV coverage equate to industry influence?
 
Revman said:
Statement of fact....you call it a "card." Regardless. I love it. MJ walked into the teeth of racism. He hasn't blinked. Historical. Courageous. Epic. A little history lesson for you:

www.espn.com

Michael Jordan's road to being a NASCAR owner, 14 years in the making

Michael Jordan is now a NASCAR team owner. His teaming up with Denny Hamlin and Bubba Wallace isn't as strange as it might sound.
www.espn.com www.espn.com
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In your case, if he wasn't on a toyota team we wouldn't be having this conversation. You are anybody else isn't going to convince me that Nascar needs Michael Jordan to survive. I don't think Nascar needs any team owner or manufacturer to survive.
I do know one thing. It is going to be interesting to see if those two teams have charters for next year. I think we will find out if that is an issue pretty quick.
 
StandOnIt said:
In your case, if he wasn't on a toyota team we wouldn't be having this conversation. You are anybody else isn't going to convince me that Nascar needs Michael Jordan to survive. I don't think Nascar needs any team owner or manufacturer to survive.
I do know one thing. It is going to be interesting to see if those two teams have charters for next year. I think we will find out if that is an issue pretty quick.
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Big deal....he is a Toyota owner, and I don't think that is by accident. Nobody said anything about survival, but is that the NASCAR goal? Probably should be to thrive. They need him to thrive. His interest legitimizes the sport to many stick and ball guys....and to a more diverse fanbase, and yeah, that matters to the sponsor paying the bills. They will have charters. No question.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Maybe it's because the others are there most / all of the time?

Does TV coverage equate to industry influence?
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Are you serious? Doesn't that make it even more impactful. When he shows up, it matters, and he has been there quite a bit IMO. Does TV coverage equate to industry influence....**** yes....especially if you are the greatest athlete to have ever walked the face of the planet.
 
StandOnIt said:
In your case, if he wasn't on a toyota team we wouldn't be having this conversation. You are anybody else isn't going to convince me that Nascar needs Michael Jordan to survive. I don't think Nascar needs any team owner or manufacturer to survive.
I do know one thing. It is going to be interesting to see if those two teams have charters for next year. I think we will find out if that is an issue pretty quick.
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If MJ owned a Ford team, Rev would be calling him a Degenerate Gambler.
 
The Reverend is one of those reliable people who keep this place going.
 
Revman said:
Big deal....he is a Toyota owner, and I don't think that is by accident. Nobody said anything about survival, but is that the NASCAR goal? Probably should be to thrive. They need him to thrive. His interest legitimizes the sport to many stick and ball guys....and to a more diverse fanbase, and yeah, that matters to the sponsor paying the bills. They will have charters. No question.
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As you should be figuring out by now, Nascar has never bent over backwards to accommodate an athlete celebrity who sells tennis shoes or anybody else for that matter. Nascar has had country and western stars, and movie stars that raced and have been car owners and they all followed the rules or they got busted for not doing so. So yeah, you are free to blow all of the smoke you can possibility put out your yota tailpipe. Nascar said not no but hell no, take us to court and here we are.
This Nascar is going to suffer because of Poor Michael narrative B.S. is getting old. Nascar pulled the plug on all of that already. All that is left is the crying for some of ya. They will get it figured out in court if it ever gets that far.
 
StandOnIt said:
As you should be figuring out by now, Nascar has never bent over backwards to accommodate an athlete celebrity who sells tennis shoes or anybody else for that matter. Nascar has had country and western stars, and movie stars that raced and have been car owners and they all followed the rules or they got busted for not doing so. So yeah, you are free to blow all of the smoke you can possibility put out your yota tailpipe. Nascar said not no but hell no, take us to court and here we are.
This Nascar is going to suffer because of Poor Michael narrative B.S. is getting old. Nascar pulled the plug on all of that already. All that is left is the crying for some of ya. They will get it figured out in court if it ever gets that far.
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All of those celebrities couldn't carry MJ's cup. Nobody has had the balls to stand up to the bully until now. Should be interesting.
 
Revman said:
All of those celebrities couldn't carry MJ's cup. Nobody has had the balls to stand up to the bully until now. Should be interesting.
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This isn't Nascar's first rodeo, they have been thru an anti-trust before. Hopefully they have kept dotting their i's and crossing their t's.
This is not a stick and ball case. This is an entertainment business with a completely different structure than a stick and ball league.
 
StandOnIt said:
This is not a stick and ball case. This is an entertainment business with a completely different structure than a stick and ball league.
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It isn’t an either / or issue. As long as the structure of NASCAR ownership doesn’t violate antitrust law by use of monopolistic business practices, they’re home-free and the plaintiffs will be paying the France’s legal bills and other costs.

The plaintiffs contend that the way NASCAR is set up and operates does exactly that and that those things have a negative impact on the enterprise value of Cup teams.
 
aunty dive said:
It isn’t an either / or issue. As long as the structure of NASCAR ownership doesn’t violate antitrust law by use of monopolistic business practices, they’re home-free and the plaintiffs will be paying the France’s legal bills and other costs.

The plaintiffs contend that the way NASCAR is set up and operates does exactly that and that those things have a negative impact on the enterprise value of Cup teams.
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They want it set up like stick and ball with profit sharing, intellectual property rights etc.
 
StandOnIt said:
This isn't Nascar's first rodeo, they have been thru an anti-trust before. Hopefully they have kept dotting their i's and crossing their t's.
This is not a stick and ball case. This is an entertainment business with a completely different structure than a stick and ball league.
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NASCAR folded up like a cheap suit in the Ferko lawsuit.
 
Teams are losing money, I think that's what this is all about to be honest. It's that simple. Team owners are in NASCAR to make money.

NASCAR is a business, let's not forget.
 
All major sports leagues are monopolies in spirit. The difference is NASCAR doesn't give its talent (drivers/owners/engine builders) a real seat at the table to negotiate terms. The apparent fact that NASCAR even owns the cars which they make the teams buy the parts for from a mandated supplier is evidence enough for me believe a judge would rule, at least in-part, for the plaintiffs.
 
Jimbo Slice said:
All major sports leagues are monopolies in spirit. The difference is NASCAR doesn't give its talent (drivers/owners/engine builders) a real seat at the table to negotiate terms. The apparent fact that NASCAR even owns the cars which they make the teams buy the parts for from a mandated supplier is evidence enough for me believe a judge would rule, at least in-part, for the plaintiffs.
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The owners thru their owners group the RTA agreed for it to be that way and many of the teams make and sell the parts to other teams. RFK recently took over making some of the parts from Barney Visser's engineering firm. JGR makes some parts for the car and other teams do the same. If that part was a monopoly, Nascar would make everything and charge the teams for it I would think.
 
Revman said:
All of those celebrities couldn't carry MJ's cup. Nobody has had the balls to stand up to the bully until now. Should be interesting.
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I agree that MJ is in on a whole different level than the rest of the stars and pseudo stars that have dabbled in NASCAR before, and I think Michael LEAVING NASCAR would be a FAR bigger story than him actually being here.
 
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