23XI statement on signing Charter agreement

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Statement from John Probst at NASCAR

"https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mo...TS&cvid=693bd21719dd4830b8d65d817176825e&ei=8"

>>'It's on them.' Engineer says NASCAR gave teams 'every opportunity' to cut costs​


...The teams accusing NASCAR of being an unlawful monopoly have testified a lot over the last eight days that life in the Cup Series has become increasingly and unbearably expensive and that they have no option but to pay up.

On Wednesday, one of the lead engineers at NASCAR had a one-word response to such a claim:

"Bewilderment..."<<
 
Tumbleweed said:
Statement from John Probst at NASCAR

"https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mo...TS&cvid=693bd21719dd4830b8d65d817176825e&ei=8"

>>'It's on them.' Engineer says NASCAR gave teams 'every opportunity' to cut costs​


...The teams accusing NASCAR of being an unlawful monopoly have testified a lot over the last eight days that life in the Cup Series has become increasingly and unbearably expensive and that they have no option but to pay up.

On Wednesday, one of the lead engineers at NASCAR had a one-word response to such a claim:

"Bewilderment..."<<
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This is a good article, written from the early testimony of NASCAR witnesses and prior to the settlement. Probst expanded his explanations on the Next Gen car, which 30 out of 36 teams voted for adopting:

There were several reasons, Probst went on to say. But the one that kept cropping up, and is most relevant to the antitrust trial, is that the car was meant to - and theoretically is - saving teams money.

"It's competition that drives cost more so than rules do," Probst said. He added, "Our last-placed teams have regional airplanes. ... It's on the teams if they want fancy war rooms. That's their business."
He added: "We give them every opportunity (to cut costs). ... It's on them."

Despite the settlement and increased revenues the teams will receive, THIS POINT REMAINS. The teams will ALWAYS operate at the ragged edge of “profitability”, because they spend every nickel on themselves, their facilities, their racing operations, in order to NOT REPORT PROFITS! It is a TAX avoidance strategy. Lavish salaries, homes, race shops, private jets, etc. What is lost in all this rah rah for NASCAR’s concessions is the BS being peddled by poor mouthing teams before and during this trial. I don’t want to hear any more of it from Hamturd, or Childress, or Hendrick, any of them. They’ve got a bigger money tree now…watch them spend it just as fast as it falls.
 
Conover said:
Despite the settlement and increased revenues the teams will receive, THIS POINT REMAINS. The teams will ALWAYS operate at the ragged edge of “profitability”, because they spend every nickel on themselves, their facilities, their racing operations, in order to NOT REPORT PROFITS! It is a TAX avoidance strategy. Lavish salaries, homes, race shops, private jets, etc. What is lost in all this rah rah for NASCAR’s concessions is the BS being peddled by poor mouthing teams before and during this trial. I don’t want to hear any more of it from Hamturd, or Childress, or Hendrick, any of them. They’ve got a bigger money tree now…watch them spend it just as fast as it falls.
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This is somewhat true, though overly simplified. Yes, when provided more revenue, race teams will tend to spend it in the pursuit of speed and competitive advantage.

Now explain why your preferred outcome was for the teams to receive less revenue and the France heirs to receive more, funneled into their trusts and tax avoidance schemes. Because that's all this is about at the core. The revenue streams are largely fixed. It's a matter of how the pie is divided.

If your argument is that race teams tend to spend all they have, the contrast must be that the Frances don't. If the race teams reinvest their earnings, it helps create a thriving racing industry for the employees and suppliers they are paying. If the Frances are "smarter" in their wealth building, how does that help the sport as a whole because they spend less and hoard more?
 
gnomesayin said:
This is somewhat true, though overly simplified. Yes, when provided more revenue, race teams will tend to spend it in the pursuit of speed and competitive advantage.

Now explain why your preferred outcome was for the teams to receive less revenue and the France heirs to receive more, funneled into their trusts and tax avoidance schemes. Because that's all this is about at the core. The revenue streams are largely fixed. It's a matter of how the pie is divided.

If your argument is that race teams tend to spend all they have, the contrast must be that the Frances don't. If the race teams reinvest their earnings, it helps create a thriving racing industry for the employees and suppliers they are paying. If the Frances are "smarter" in their wealth building, how does that help the sport as a whole because they spend less and hoard more?
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You assume I did not want any larger revenue distribution for teams. What I was against involved the CENTRAL CONTENTION in the lawsuit…that NASCAR used anticompetitive monospony practices to stifle competition causing damages. I still say that was NOT proven and not what happened.

You are correct that, at the core of the suit, it was all about money, and charters. The Jordan Hamcrap Jenkie cabal didn’t like the revenues, wanted more, and used a targeted technically challenging basis for suing NASCAR because they didn’t like the terms of the contract agreed upon by the other teams. That is NOT a valid reason to contest in court, so they preyed on weaknesses in some NASCAR decisions and contract language. NASCAR via France and family made this absurdly more difficult and contentious than necessary. Ultimately I expect their financial payout was immensely higher than if they had resolved all this prior to the charter contracts, but that is all behind everyone now.

Your concern about the France’s use of money earned has no bearing on this, and my arguments do not either. I approach the whole thing from a business perspective and as a racing fan. I’ve called out both parties for their ugliness and stupidity. I still despise Hamcrap. The point of my post was that the RACE TEAMS HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. I do not want to hear whiny cat crying from the 23XI camp ever again. They got enough money to escape declaring bankruptcy from their extreme overspend on their Taj Mahal headquarters. It might even be enough to keep DipDenny from spending them into skid row.
 
The problem is once one team starts spending, the other teams have to as well if they want to remain competitive. That's why a spending cap would work in theory. Though I would imagine teams would find a way around it eventually
 
Very well written response. There are several points I agree on. Yes, the antitrust lawsuit was a mechanism available to the teams to redress the defeat they experienced during charter negotiations. The monopoly was never going to be broken up unless the Frances decided to drive themselves right off the cliff. None of the parties wanted it to be.

I don't take offense to 23XI and FRM using antitrust to achieve their ends, because we are dealing with savvy parties who will all use every tool available to them. I also believe that NASCAR made themselves vulnerable to such a challenge by deliberately engaging in excessively anticompetitive behaviors that walked right up to the line of illegality. That's why the lawsuit was viable.

Ultimately my sympathies didn't lie with Michael Jordan or Denny Hamlin. I have a certain amount of respect for the gumption it took to mount the challenge when nobody else was willing or able, but that's it. My sympathies were with the race teams as a whole, and all of the racing people they employ. I am in favor of more equitable distribution of profits and more seats at the table when decisions are made, because the last two decades of leadership as is have been shaky at best.

The lawsuit was far from perfect and had many regrettable aspects. But in the end, it nudged things in that direction. For that I am glad.
 
gnomesayin said:
Very well written response. There are several points I agree on. Yes, the antitrust lawsuit was a mechanism available to the teams to redress the defeat they experienced during charter negotiations. The monopoly was never going to be broken up unless the Frances decided to drive themselves right off the cliff. None of the parties wanted it to be.

I don't take offense to 23XI and FRM using antitrust to achieve their ends, because we are dealing with savvy parties who will all use every tool available to them. I also believe that NASCAR made themselves vulnerable to such a challenge by deliberately engaging in excessively anticompetitive behaviors that walked right up to the line of illegality. That's why the lawsuit was viable.

Ultimately my sympathies didn't lie with Michael Jordan or Denny Hamlin. I have a certain amount of respect for the gumption it took to mount the challenge when nobody else was willing or able, but that's it. My sympathies were with the race teams as a whole, and all of the racing people they employ. I am in favor of more equitable distribution of profits and more seats at the table when decisions are made, because the last two decades of leadership as is have been shaky at best.

The lawsuit was far from perfect and had many regrettable aspects. But in the end, it nudged things in that direction. For that I am glad.
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Very well said!
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't see how Phelps and O'Donnell survive this, but Jim my keep them around just to avoid having to admit how much they helped poison the well. In a publicity traded company they would be on the street.
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I think JF will retire, and Ben Kennedy will take over as head honcho. If that happens I would think Ben would bring his people into the spots where some were let go. As for the Steves, I don't know. It could work against them for being sympathetic towards the teams in the negotiations.
 
rd45usa said:
I think JF will retire, and Ben Kennedy will take over as head honcho. If that happens I would think Ben would bring his people into the spots where some were let go. As for the Steves, I don't know. It could work against them for being sympathetic towards the teams in the negotiations.
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^^^this^^^
 
I still have one lingering question, did Nascar have an OTA tv deal offer but for less money and turned it down and chased the money instead. Knowing that sponsors want to be seen on tv with the most viewers for ROI.
 
rd45usa said:
I still have one lingering question, did Nascar have an OTA tv deal offer but for less money and turned it down and chased the money instead. Knowing that sponsors want to be seen on tv with the most viewers for ROI.
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That’s a good question, and I have no idea what the answer is, but here’s my guess:

> Multiple bidders were interested in a contract, but none wanted to pony up for an exclusive massive $$$ deal. Notably, Amazon Prime was ready to get their feet wet. Important to partner with streamers due to trends and younger demographic targets.
> Giving everyone a share of the season became the highest $ revenue option. No network was going to compete for all races with over the air availability (like the CW did with Xfinity/O’Riley) due to other major sports broadcast obligations. The CW doesn’t have near the power or money to get anywhere close to the current deal.
> Only ESPN would really have the capability and clout to ever bid for the full series exclusively, but they probably never will.
 
Conover said:
This is a good article, written from the early testimony of NASCAR witnesses and prior to the settlement. Probst expanded his explanations on the Next Gen car, which 30 out of 36 teams voted for adopting:

There were several reasons, Probst went on to say. But the one that kept cropping up, and is most relevant to the antitrust trial, is that the car was meant to - and theoretically is - saving teams money.

"It's competition that drives cost more so than rules do," Probst said. He added, "Our last-placed teams have regional airplanes. ... It's on the teams if they want fancy war rooms. That's their business."
He added: "We give them every opportunity (to cut costs). ... It's on them."

Despite the settlement and increased revenues the teams will receive, THIS POINT REMAINS. The teams will ALWAYS operate at the ragged edge of “profitability”, because they spend every nickel on themselves, their facilities, their racing operations, in order to NOT REPORT PROFITS! It is a TAX avoidance strategy. Lavish salaries, homes, race shops, private jets, etc. What is lost in all this rah rah for NASCAR’s concessions is the BS being peddled by poor mouthing teams before and during this trial. I don’t want to hear any more of it from Hamturd, or Childress, or Hendrick, any of them. They’ve got a bigger money tree now…watch them spend it just as fast as it falls.
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I agree with you. Completely. Play rich guy games, and win rich guy prizes....and remember, there is some discussion about opening up with they can do with the cars which I love, but again, there goes the money. You will never avoid that, but with that being said, I am not sure that the angle the plaintiffs took was to ever prove that they were going broke....it was a strategy to get more of the pie.
 
Seems surreal that the Felon, the Captain, and Coach support the settlement, but didn't have the balls to do what Denny, Jenkins, and MJ did...I don't know enough about business to know if this is chicken **** or smart.
 
Revman said:
Seems surreal that the Felon, the Captain, and Coach support the settlement, but didn't have the balls to do what Denny, Jenkins, and MJ did...I don't know enough about business to know if this is chicken **** or smart.
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For Jordan, racing is closer to a hobby. He can chuck it any time he wants. For most of the other owners, there's more on the line.

It can be both chicken crap and smart at the same time.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
For Jordan, racing is closer to a hobby. He can chuck it any time he wants. For most of the other owners, there's more on the line.

It can be both chicken crap and smart at the same time.
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I get that, but none of the Big 3 got there by being passive....hell, the Felon damn near went to jail for his business practices. I think it was chicken ****....and I am including Gibbs and Legacy here. They were willing to watch Denny and MJ take the fall. Maybe this is why NASCAR had stuck it to them for so long. Going to be interesting to see what street cred Denny and MJ have acquired. Kauffman will go down in history as significant....
 
Revman said:
I get that, but none of the Big 3 got there by being passive....hell, the Felon damn near went to jail for his business practices. I think it was chicken ****....and I am including Gibbs and Legacy here. They were willing to watch Denny and MJ take the fall. Maybe this is why NASCAR had stuck it to them for so long. Going to be interesting to see what street cred Denny and MJ have acquired. Kauffman will go down in history as significant....
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I wonder if the preacher will try to quadruple 23XI's affiliate fee like he did for Furniture Row?
Anybody have odds on Hambone saying on his podcast that he saved Nascar?
 
Revman said:
I get that, but none of the Big 3 got there by being passive....hell, the Felon damn near went to jail for his business practices. I think it was chicken ****....and I am including Gibbs and Legacy here. They were willing to watch Denny and MJ take the fall. Maybe this is why NASCAR had stuck it to them for so long. Going to be interesting to see what street cred Denny and MJ have acquired. Kauffman will go down in history as significant....
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I genuinely agree with you here. I think more so than even just that they had more personally invested in NASCAR than MJ, there's also the factor that they've been here a lot longer presumably because they love auto racing a little more than MJ. Penske is synonymous with American racing. Gibbs has been in Cup for over 3 decades. Hendrick ran IMSA, NHRA, NASCAR, all that stuff back in the 80s through the present. MJ doesn't have that track record for obvious reasons. This is more of a dalliance than a lifestyle for him. As I was reminded in a recent video about the NHRA though, team owners in racing will often take lumps and criticism and lose money in ways they never would for their real business because they're marks for this stuff.
 
virtualbalboa said:
I genuinely agree with you here. I think more so than even just that they had more personally invested in NASCAR than MJ, there's also the factor that they've been here a lot longer presumably because they love auto racing a little more than MJ. Penske is synonymous with American racing. Gibbs has been in Cup for over 3 decades. Hendrick ran IMSA, NHRA, NASCAR, all that stuff back in the 80s through the present. MJ doesn't have that track record for obvious reasons. This is more of a dalliance than a lifestyle for him. As I was reminded in a recent video about the NHRA though, team owners in racing will often take lumps and criticism and lose money in ways they never would for their real business because they're marks for this stuff.
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Much better than the way I tried to say it.
 
Revman said:
I think it was chicken ****....and I am including Gibbs and Legacy here. They were willing to watch Denny and MJ take the fall. Maybe this is why NASCAR had stuck it to them for so long....
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I agree with Rev on this. I was especially pissed off at the passive team owners back in October, when mediation attempts came close to producing a negotiated settlement, but ultimately failed. According to Jordan Bianchi, NASCAR offered permanent charters and other concessions going forward, giving the passive team owners everything they had wanted from the beginning.

But the plaintiffs had circa $50 million in litigation costs and lost revenue from racing half of 2025 as open cars. And reports were that passive team executives were pressing MJ and Denny to take that deal, eat those massive losses, while the passive owners paid nothing. I for one am glad MJ and Denny and Bob Jenkins didn't blink and held to their position.

Mr. France, you got your "Game 7 Moment" in the federal courthouse before a jury of your peers.... One side won. One side lost something, but their injuries were not life-threatening. And the passive owners also won big-time, riding on the shoulders of MJ, Hamlin, and Jenkins. I'm sure their credibility is strong, and they earned it.
 
Revman said:
Seems surreal that the Felon, the Captain, and Coach support the settlement, but didn't have the balls to do what Denny, Jenkins, and MJ did...I don't know enough about business to know if this is chicken **** or smart.
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Honestly, probably both. I'm on your side on this one though. If Rick and Roger and Joe would have refused to play ball from the start, I guarantee you this would have gotten settled long ago. Roger has a problem though. As the owner of a racing series, supporting the lawsuit was inviting the other Indycar team owners to come after HIM. The rest really have no excuse though. Going along to get along seldom ever turns out well.
 
Well, Hamcrap is hardly a hero. See, the narcissist is practically a jock strap hauler for his main buddy and massive financier Jordan. So when Jordan didn’t like how this was playing out, HE decided to challenge it and got Jenkins to come along. Hambone had no choice…he’s along for the ride.

So give Jordan props, and Jenkins for what that’s worth, but Dennis the savior of all mankind? 🤮
 
Conover said:
Well, Hamcrap is hardly a hero. See, the narcissist is practically a jock strap hauler for his main buddy and massive financier Jordan. So when Jordan didn’t like how this was playing out, HE decided to challenge it and got Jenkins to come along. Hambone had no choice…he’s along for the ride.
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The strategy of trial lawyers everywhere:
If the facts support your case, you pound the facts. If you don't have the facts, then you pound the law. If you don't have the facts or the law, then pound the table.

And this is where we are now... with the NASCAR Cheerleading Cabal pounding the table and trying to spin doctor the trial outcome into something that it's not. Hamlin's $45 million invested in 23XI may be mere pocket change to @Conover, but from my point of view, that's real skin in the game. MJ, Hamlin, and Jenkins all played important roles, and all earned a ton of gratitude and respect from the NASCAR garage.

I'm not particularly a fan of Denny Hamlin. I really dislike his serial bullying tactics toward drivers he perceived as younger, less experienced, or weaker than him. And he has said a lot of outrageous, ridiculous stuff that reflects badly on him, IMO. Also, I sometimes shake my head at how ostentatious Denny can be, as if his origin from very, very humble beginnings has left him needing to display his career success and financial success for all to see. I don't like that either.

However, it is inarguable that Hamlin has accomplished a lot behind the wheel, and has amplified that by his investments in the future of NASCAR. He brought Jordan in. He initiated the founding of 23XI. He has been outspoken about the issues facing team owners and unfair balance of power between teams and sanctioning body. Hamlin has shown an extra facet that I didn't know he had, and the sport is definitely better for it. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
Conover said:
Well, Hamcrap is hardly a hero. See, the narcissist is practically a jock strap hauler for his main buddy and massive financier Jordan. So when Jordan didn’t like how this was playing out, HE decided to challenge it and got Jenkins to come along. Hambone had no choice…he’s along for the ride.

So give Jordan props, and Jenkins for what that’s worth, but Dennis the savior of all mankind? 🤮
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Jordan isn't here without Denny. You don't like that, but that is fact.
 
StandOnIt said:
I wonder if the preacher will try to quadruple 23XI's affiliate fee like he did for Furniture Row?
Anybody have odds on Hambone saying on his podcast that he saved Nascar?
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Dunno....FAFO with Denny I guess.
 
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