Alan Kulwicki

Just depends on your point of view. Is the HOF only for longevity of really good? Brief spirts of elite? Or all encompassing? Not everyone can be Gordon, Petty or Earnhardt.

Bobby Labonte is an interesting case because his prime was a lot shorter than other champions. He didn’t land a full time Cup ride until age 29, ended up with Gibbs and won his first race at 31. He notched all 21 wins and his Cup title in an 8 year span, and was done winning by age 40. Had he landed at a team like RCR, rather than Petty, he likely had a few more wins in him. But agreed, his time at the top of the sport was short lived.

In my mind, Labonte was one of the top drivers of the late 90’s. Add on his Busch Series championship (he was the first to win the title in Busch and Cup) and I’d say he’s a rock solid HOF candidate. Others may disagree I’m sure.
I would lean toward putting him in, but it's close. He does have the championship, but take away the title and he's basically Jeff Burton. Bobby also probably did himself a bit of a disservice by hanging around a little too long...2003 was the last year he was really competitive, but he hung around for about a decade after that, and was pretty much in nothing but crap rides after leaving JGR.
 
I would lean toward putting him in, but it's close. He does have the championship, but take away the title and he's basically Jeff Burton. Bobby also probably did himself a bit of a disservice by hanging around a little too long...2003 was the last year he was really competitive, but he hung around for about a decade after that, and was pretty much in nothing but crap rides after leaving JGR.

Yeah from 2006 on was a disaster. His career lost some of its luster in those later years. Leaving JGR for Petty Enterprises was a terrible career decision. If he had ended up at RCR, DEI/Ganassi or someone like that in his twilight years I bet he has a few more wins before calling it quits.
 
I didn't know at the time why Labonte left Gibbs. I think someone here posted why a couple of years ago, but darned if I can remember. I do remember thinking at the time it must have been something major, because even then Petty was quite a step down.
 
Bobby Labonte's resume is much great than AK's .Obviously length of time comes into it but before Cup Labonte won a Busch Title which definitely surpasses anything AK did in the ASA ranks. Labonte also won three of NASCAR's "Crown Jewels", the Southern 500, Brickyard and Coke 600 while Kulwicki never won one of NASCAR's big events unless you consider the Bristol night race to be one. Labonte also won the IROC Title in 2001. Not to mention his 2000 title season in general was excellent.

Ironically Kulwicki could have had the #22 Maxwell House ride for JJ.

I feel like with every response in this thread I end up sounding like I'm anti-AK. That's simply not true. However, Kulwicki's resume is very thin. It's the story that people are drawn to. I think he has a place in the HOF at some point but there's people who accomplished far more that need to get in before AK.
 
By my general rule of thumb, 20 or more wins and a title gets you in the Hall, so Bobby slides in. Add in wins in some big events and a Busch Series Title, and think he's a lock to get in. I don't want to see the bar slide too far below where he is though.
 
Yeah I think Bobby will make it in. The Labonte brothers are pretty famous and were around for a long time, record not withstanding. The Hall of Fame IMO isn't strictly looking at driving records, it is about the personalities in and behind the scenes of Nascar.
 
Bobby Labonte's resume is much great than AK's .Obviously length of time comes into it but before Cup Labonte won a Busch Title which definitely surpasses anything AK did in the ASA ranks. Labonte also won three of NASCAR's "Crown Jewels", the Southern 500, Brickyard and Coke 600 while Kulwicki never won one of NASCAR's big events unless you consider the Bristol night race to be one. Labonte also won the IROC Title in 2001. Not to mention his 2000 title season in general was excellent.

Ironically Kulwicki could have had the #22 Maxwell House ride for JJ.

I feel like with every response in this thread I end up sounding like I'm anti-AK. That's simply not true. However, Kulwicki's resume is very thin. It's the story that people are drawn to. I think he has a place in the HOF at some point but there's people who accomplished far more that need to get in before AK.

I don't see you as "anti AK" at all. You haven't disparaged his accomplishments, You've stated your opinion, nothing more. I hold him in a little higher esteem than you do, maybe. Doesn't make either of us wrong or right. And I'm guessing neither of us get a vote anyway.
 
I think the late car builders Holman and Moody team should get in before both of them, but Gordon will probably get in before them. That's the way it goes, nothing snarky about Gordon, he deserves it for sure. The Hall of Fame is also political. I'm surprised Jr wasn't on the ballot this year.
 
By my general rule of thumb, 20 or more wins and a title gets you in the Hall, so Bobby slides in. Add in wins in some big events and a Busch Series Title, and think he's a lock to get in. I don't want to see the bar slide too far below where he is though.

Also 6 wins at Atlanta. Pretty much owned that joint during his career. Everyone talks about Harvick’s AMS dominance of late, but Bobby was the man for a good while.

This is an Alan Kulwicki thread so I’ll stop talking about another driver.
 
Labonte will go in later though, his three year stretch between 98-00 was insane.

Almost similar to the track Truex is on now.
 
It's the NASCAR Hall of Fame. So, to me that includes all the series. If it were just for the Cup drivers, it wouldn't be as meaningful or educational. I think Herb Nab should be in it. Maurice Petty is in. I think the Hall should about drivers, crew chiefs, owners, and people who helped shape the sport. I would like to see T. Wayne Robertson in the HoF. He was huge in the success of the Winston Cup Series. I saw this year where Janet Guthrie has been nominated for a Landmark Award....
Ironically, T. Wayne Robertson is one of only two individuals ever to be dropped from Hall of Fame consideration after being nominated. Les Richter is the other.

BTW, I agree with your broad view of what the HoF should be. It is being managed that way, thankfully. It does create a few oddities - Hornaday is one - but I can live with that.
 
Ironically, T. Wayne Robertson is one of only two individuals ever to be dropped from Hall of Fame consideration after being nominated. Les Richter is the other.

BTW, I agree with your broad view of what the HoF should be. It is being managed that way, thankfully. It does create a few oddities - Hornaday is one - but I can live with that.
Wonder why they were dropped........like Mack mentioned....... T.Wayne was instrumental to Nascar.
 
I think the late car builders Holman and Moody team should get in before both of them, but Gordon will probably get in before them. That's the way it goes, nothing snarky about Gordon, he deserves it for sure. The Hall of Fame is also political. I'm surprised Jr wasn't on the ballot this year.

I'm trying to figure out how Gordon got on the ballot so fast! I know they said they wouldn't count his fill in gig in 2016 against his eligibility, but I thought you had to be retired five years. :idunno: He is just starting his third full season out of the car..... As for Junior, the only way I would consider him is because of his Busch Series titles. On his Cup record alone, no way. I certainly think Holman and Moody are worthy inductees. Again, they were some of the people that truly changed the sport. Kirk Shelmerdine should be a first ballot lock too. Four Cup titles as a crew chief speaks for itself. T Wayne Robertson should absolutely get in the Hall at some point. Probably no other single person with the exception of Bill France Sr. worked as hard to promote NASCAR as T. Wayne did.
 
As for Junior, the only way I would consider him is because of his Busch Series titles. On his Cup record alone, no way./QUOTE]
Because carrying the sport on one's back since 2001 until he retired should be ignored?:idunno: If you factor that in then he's a no-brainer.
 
Has the roof caved in now that he IS retired? judging by the overall state of fan interest in the sport the last ten years, if he was carrying it, he must have dropped it a few times.....
 
Has the roof caved in now that he IS retired? judging by the overall state of fan interest in the sport the last ten years, if he was carrying it, he must have dropped it a few times.....
You might want to ponder what would have happened if he hadn't been there. When 50% of the people in the stands and that watched on TV happened to be there because of him maybe somebody else should have shown up to help carry the sport. That didn't happen.
 
You might want to ponder what would have happened if he hadn't been there. When 50% of the people in the stands and that watched on TV happened to be there because of him maybe somebody else should have shown up to help carry the sport. That didn't happen.
You can't force people to be fans of a particular individual.

NASCAR should have done (and should be doing) a better job of developing fans of the sport itself. That way, they'll still be fans when any one driver leaves.
 
You might want to ponder what would have happened if he hadn't been there. When 50% of the people in the stands and that watched on TV happened to be there because of him maybe somebody else should have shown up to help carry the sport. That didn't happen.

All I'm saying is, Jr. is now retired. Have all of those Jr. fans abandoned the sport? Would they have abandoned the sport if Jr. would have quit ten years ago? I have no idea, but all I see is the same generally downward decline in attendance and ratings that has been going on for years, and I can't see where Jr. leaving moved the needle any more than when Gordon left, or Tony left.
 
I can see the argument for Evernham in one way but also to me he was'nt a "star" per say of the sport. I can undertsnad your reasoning. i still disagree hes a Hall of Famers.
As per Hornaday he was a truck series driver. Not the top level. No one should get in hall of fame based on truck series accomplishments or Xfinity series either. Hall of Famers should be Cup Series.
NASCAR HALL of FAME
It doesn't say Winston Cup or Monster Cup. It includes the Greats of Nascar and that means owners, drivers, crew chiefs and maybe someday a car chief will make it. These are the people who did something greater than the others of A SPECIFIC TIME in Nascar's history.
 
All current Hall of Famers. Category breakdowns is to where they fit best. Some guys are placed for what they were best known for since some fit in multiple categories:

Modern Drivers (1980 to current):

Dale Earnhardt (2010)
Darrell Waltrip (2012)
Rusty Wallace (2013)
Dale Jarrett (2014)
Bill Elliott (2015)
Terry Labonte (2016)
Mark Martin (2017)Thoughts: Wallace is in my opinion the weakest of those listed, I question why he was in before some other names here, but this is not a bad list by any means.

Historical Drivers (1949-1979):

Junior Johnson (2010)
Richard Petty (2010)
Bobby Allison (2011)
Ned Jarrett (2011)
David Pearson (2011)
Lee Petty (2011)
Cale Yabroough (2012)
Buck Baker (2013)
Herb Thomas (2013)
Tim Flock (2014)
Fireball Roberts (2014)
Fred Lorenzen (2015)
Wendell Scott (2015)
Joe Weatherly (2015)
Rex White (2015)
Bobby Isaac (2016)
Red Byron (2018)Thoughts:I can't agree with Byron and Scott being in on meritocratic terms, they're the weakest 2 drivers here. I understand both though. Scott's in because he's black (that line of thinking is why Danica will make it in some day, don't hate on me, I'm just being honest), and Byron because he's the first champ but he did little else of note in his career. I kind of take the point of view of "you need to do more than simply win a season championship to be in this".

Car Owners:

Bud Moore (2011)
Glen Wood (2012)
Cotton Owens (2013)
Richard Childress (2017)
Rick Hendrick (2017)
Raymond Parks (2017)
Robert Yates (2018)Thoughts: Nothing against Bud Moore, but I don't understand him being the first car owner in at all, and I'd consider him a more borderline pick anyway. Reading up on Parks he's more understandable. This list though is incredibly random for who's been selected and when when looking at the history of car owners in the series. No issue with Childress or Hendrick, those are solid selections. But Roush should seriously be in before Yates, Penske should be there, Holmon-Moody, Carl Kiekhaefer...

Track Owners and Promoters:

Bill France Sr. (2010)
Bill France Jr. (2010)
Bruton Smith (2016)
Curtis Turner (2016)Thoughts: Including Turner here because I consider building Charlotte a better accomplishment than anything in his Cup career. No issue with any of this.

Broadcasters:

Benny Parsons (2017)
Ken Squier (2018)Thoughts: Like with Turner, including Benny here because I consider his time as a broadcaster a better accomplishment than his driving career, and yes, I know he was a champion. No issue with Benny or Squier. I think Bob Jenkins someday should garner serious consideration and be added here. Maybe Chris Economaki although he's probably more a stretch than Jenkins.

NASCAR "Less Visible Series":

Richie Evans (2012)
Jack Ingram (2014)
Jerry Cook (2016)
Ron Hornaday (2018)Thoughts: Evans and Cook, fine, it was a different form of the sport in a completely different era. Ingram and Hornaday however do not belong here. Hypothetical conversation with Hornaday:

Me: “Hi Ron, you once drove for A.J. Foyt in the Cup series, correct?”
Hornaday: “Yes, we weren’t successful, but it was the one full-time ride I ever had in the Cup series.”
Me: “Okay. You realize your car owner A.J. Foyt once won the Daytona 500 in 1972 – NASCAR’s most prestigious race – and was also recognized as one of NASCAR’s 50 Greatest Drivers back in 1998.”
Hornaday: “I’m aware of those accomplishments, yes.”
Me: “Who do you consider to have had a more successful career in NASCAR racing, yourself or A.J. Foyt?”
Hornaday: “Foyt.”
Me: “Who do you consider to have had a more famous career in NASCAR racing, yourself or A.J. Foyt?”
Hornaday: “Foyt.”
Me: "He also had a more successful career outside of NASCAR than you did."
Hornaday: "Goes without saying."
Me: “So A.J. was more successful and more famous in NASCAR than you were, and you are in the Hall of Fame and he is not.”
Hornaday: “…I was surprised too.”


Crew Chiefs and Engineers:

Dale Inman (2012)
Leonard Wood (2013)
Maurice Petty (2014)
Ray Evernham (2018)Thoughts: No issue with these guys, but like with the car owners, it's pretty random. There's a pattern here of NASCAR wanting to induct anyone that was with Petty Enterprises for a period of time, which, okay. Leonard Wood entirely understandable. Evernham? Is Kirk Shelmerdine going to be inducted someday for being Earnhardt's crew chief for a lot of his championships? Is Chad Knaus? What separates a Hall of Fame crew chief from one that's not other than getting lucky with who the car owner selected to be his driver?
 
It literally couldn't have gotten any closer. Had Bill Elliott led one more lap, he would have been the champ. Kulwicki led the most that day with 103, Elliott led 102. Kulwicki won the title by 10 points, had Elliott led the most it would have been a 10 point swing resulting in a tie, with the championship going to Elliott based on wins.

I was at that race. Three very important things happened that night. It was Jeff Gordon's first start in a Winston Cup event. It was the final race for Richard Petty after a 32 year run. It was the night Alan Kulwicki won the NASCAR Championship.
Does Alan belong in the NHoF? I think so. He was one of the last single car teams, along with Dave Marcis and Jimmy Means who had cars entered in every race, and he won the championship. He, like Wendell Scott, were true "underdogs".
Normally that isn't enough to make any HoF but in both of these situations, it is. Just MO. YMV.
 
You can't force people to be fans of a particular individual.

NASCAR should have done (and should be doing) a better job of developing fans of the sport itself. That way, they'll still be fans when any one driver leaves.
NASCAR never develops anything. They are attempting to develop the next set of drivers to interest fans. Unfortunately, they try and force the issue through the promotion of those that are manufactured instead of promoting those that truly have talent.

All I'm saying is, Jr. is now retired. Have all of those Jr. fans abandoned the sport? Would they have abandoned the sport if Jr. would have quit ten years ago? I have no idea, but all I see is the same generally downward decline in attendance and ratings that has been going on for years, and I can't see where Jr. leaving moved the needle any more than when Gordon left, or Tony left.

The downward decline has happened. No doubt. However, the guy was the people's champion for over 15 years. He sold more NASCAR related products with his name/face/number than any other driver by a huge margin. He was the face of the sport and in many ways continues to be it. People listen when he speaks about things within the sport. He is about the only NASCAR driver that people outside of the sport can name and would recognize if he passed them on the street. He continues to be a brand after he has retired. Lastly, he's as tied to the sport as his father and Richard Petty and has nowhere near the record/stats that they do.

He's the unofficial ambassador for the sport and has carried that load for almost 2 decades. Unlike other drivers he'll get into the HOF because of a combination of what he did on the track, off the track, and for the sport.
 
Me: “Who do you consider to have had a more successful career in NASCAR racing, yourself or A.J. Foyt?”
Hornaday: “Foyt.”
Hornaday: "Myself. Foyt won seven races at four tracks but four of those were at Daytona. In his era, that was arguably more of a test of equipment than it is today. He never ran a full schedule. He never won on a short track; remind me, did he even run any? He cherry-picked the races he ran and stuck to those where he had the best chances.

I've got three championships. My wins are on a wider variety of tracks, in an era where the competition was more competitive."

Me: "He also had a more successful career outside of NASCAR than you did."
Hornaday: "Goes without saying."
Me: "He also had a more successful career outside of NASCAR than you did."
Hornaday: "Goes without saying."
Hornaday: "This is the NASCAR Hall, not the Motorsports Hall. His achievements in other forms of racing should be recognized in their appropriate Halls. As I noted, he never even ran a full season; only twice did he even run a quarter of a season."
 
Last edited:
Another thing we all need to remember is this. NASCAR doesnt have thirty plus teams with fifty men rosters with five to eleven or twelve positions. The NASCAR pool of prospects is much much smaller. So there are going to have to be guys that weren't Petty or Earnhardt that have to be enshrined. Just like Cooperstown, not everybody in there is Babe Ruth.
 
yeah, right now the HoF have plenty to pick from. Not too worried, they can reduce the candidates they induct if they run into problems in the future, but I think it will take awhile
 
All current Hall of Famers. Category breakdowns is to where they fit best. Some guys are placed for what they were best known for since some fit in multiple categories:

Modern Drivers (1980 to current):

Dale Earnhardt (2010)
Darrell Waltrip (2012)
Rusty Wallace (2013)
Dale Jarrett (2014)
Bill Elliott (2015)
Terry Labonte (2016)
Mark Martin (2017)Thoughts: Wallace is in my opinion the weakest of those listed, I question why he was in before some other names here, but this is not a bad list by any means.

I'm not sure I would call Wallace the weakest, he DOES have a championship and more wins than Martin. (No disrespect to martin, I love the guy).

Historical Drivers (1949-1979):

Junior Johnson (2010)
Richard Petty (2010)
Bobby Allison (2011)
Ned Jarrett (2011)
David Pearson (2011)
Lee Petty (2011)
Cale Yabroough (2012)
Buck Baker (2013)
Herb Thomas (2013)
Tim Flock (2014)
Fireball Roberts (2014)
Fred Lorenzen (2015)
Wendell Scott (2015)
Joe Weatherly (2015)
Rex White (2015)
Bobby Isaac (2016)
Red Byron (2018)Thoughts:I can't agree with Byron and Scott being in on meritocratic terms, they're the weakest 2 drivers here. I understand both though. Scott's in because he's black (that line of thinking is why Danica will make it in some day, don't hate on me, I'm just being honest), and Byron because he's the first champ but he did little else of note in his career. I kind of take the point of view of "you need to do more than simply win a season championship to be in this".

I thought Lorenzen was the weak sister in this bunch, with the exception of the two listed below. Yes, his win number is pretty good, and his win percentage was pretty good, but a very short career and never a championship contending driver. He only ran 15 or more races three times. I have already spoke of my disagreement with the Scott pick. Byron was one hell of a racer, but the bulk of his work happened BEFORE there was a NASCAR. Worthy of recognition, but not a Hall of Famer in my opinion.

Car Owners:

Bud Moore (2011)
Glen Wood (2012)
Cotton Owens (2013)
Richard Childress (2017)
Rick Hendrick (2017)
Raymond Parks (2017)
Robert Yates (2018)Thoughts: Nothing against Bud Moore, but I don't understand him being the first car owner in at all, and I'd consider him a more borderline pick anyway. Reading up on Parks he's more understandable. This list though is incredibly random for who's been selected and when when looking at the history of car owners in the series. No issue with Childress or Hendrick, those are solid selections. But Roush should seriously be in before Yates, Penske should be there, Holmon-Moody, Carl Kiekhaefer...

I have no real beefs here, except that like his driver Byron, most of Parks success was BEFORE NASCAR. I think one of the things that drove Moore and Owens getting in when they did (which I am in total agreement with) was their advancing age and health concerns. Much better to take them a little out of order and get them in while they are still alive then wait until they are gone. While Owens didn't get to live to be inducted, at least he died knowing that he was so honored. I think that explains Robert yates going in when he did too. Roush is a little hard to understand. His success across all three series makes him a lock. I think Penske's lack of championships, and the more pressing need to get the more successful owners like Hendrick and Childress, and the old and sick ones in first has held him back. I expect both Penske and Roush to get the nod soon.

Track Owners and Promoters:

Bill France Sr. (2010)
Bill France Jr. (2010)
Bruton Smith (2016)
Curtis Turner (2016)Thoughts: Including Turner here because I consider building Charlotte a better accomplishment than anything in his Cup career. No issue with any of this.

Turner is a larger than life character, and was a great driver, but based on his record, I'm not really sure he is a Hall of Famer.

Broadcasters:

Benny Parsons (2017)
Ken Squier (2018)Thoughts: Like with Turner, including Benny here because I consider his time as a broadcaster a better accomplishment than his driving career, and yes, I know he was a champion. No issue with Benny or Squier. I think Bob Jenkins someday should garner serious consideration and be added here. Maybe Chris Economaki although he's probably more a stretch than Jenkins.

NASCAR "Less Visible Series":

Richie Evans (2012)
Jack Ingram (2014)
Jerry Cook (2016)
Ron Hornaday (2018)Thoughts: Evans and Cook, fine, it was a different form of the sport in a completely different era. Ingram and Hornaday however do not belong here. Hypothetical conversation with Hornaday:

Me: “Hi Ron, you once drove for A.J. Foyt in the Cup series, correct?”
Hornaday: “Yes, we weren’t successful, but it was the one full-time ride I ever had in the Cup series.”
Me: “Okay. You realize your car owner A.J. Foyt once won the Daytona 500 in 1972 – NASCAR’s most prestigious race – and was also recognized as one of NASCAR’s 50 Greatest Drivers back in 1998.”
Hornaday: “I’m aware of those accomplishments, yes.”
Me: “Who do you consider to have had a more successful career in NASCAR racing, yourself or A.J. Foyt?”
Hornaday: “Foyt.”
Me: “Who do you consider to have had a more famous career in NASCAR racing, yourself or A.J. Foyt?”
Hornaday: “Foyt.”
Me: "He also had a more successful career outside of NASCAR than you did."
Hornaday: "Goes without saying."
Me: “So A.J. was more successful and more famous in NASCAR than you were, and you are in the Hall of Fame and he is not.”
Hornaday: “…I was surprised too.”

The thing about Hornaday; If he isn't good enough to go into the Hall, then likely no regular Truck Series driver will EVER get into the Hall. As I have said repeatedly, I wish NASCAR would have segregated the categories, but for whatever reason they didn't so we can't penalize the best driver ever in his chosen class just because the people that run NASCAR have rocks in their head. Same goes for the other guys on this portion of the list.


Crew Chiefs and Engineers:

Dale Inman (2012)
Leonard Wood (2013)
Maurice Petty (2014)
Ray Evernham (2018)Thoughts: No issue with these guys, but like with the car owners, it's pretty random. There's a pattern here of NASCAR wanting to induct anyone that was with Petty Enterprises for a period of time, which, okay. Leonard Wood entirely understandable. Evernham? Is Kirk Shelmerdine going to be inducted someday for being Earnhardt's crew chief for a lot of his championships? Is Chad Knaus? What separates a Hall of Fame crew chief from one that's not other than getting lucky with who the car owner selected to be his driver?

I have no issue with ANYBODY mentioned here. Evernham, Shelmerdine, and Knaus are absolute first ballot HoF picks, not even disputable in my opinion. I find it kind of funny that for years we heard the only reason Gordon and Johnson won was because of their brilliant crew chiefs, but now we seem to be saying the crew chiefs only won because of the driver. ?????[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:
In addition to being a car owner Penske was a successful developer and track owner. I still wish he was a track owner.....

Penske just turned 81 and Roush is a few weeks a way from 76. Both need to get in.
 
In addition to being a car owner Penske was a successful developer and track owner. I still wish he was a track owner.....

Penske just turned 81 and Roush is a few weeks a way from 76. Both need to get in.

I fully agree on both points.
 
Hornaday: "Myself. Foyt won seven races at four tracks but four of those were at Daytona. In his era, that was arguably more of a test of equipment than it is today. He never ran a full schedule. He never won on a short track; remind me, did he even run any? He cherry-picked the races he ran and stuck to those where he had the best chances.
I've got three championships. My wins are on a wider variety of tracks, in an era where the competition was more competitive."
Find me a current racecar driver that will tell you winning a Truck title is a greater accomplishment than winning Daytona.
As I noted, he never even ran a full season; only twice did he even run a quarter of a season."
So should we kick out David Pearson then?
The thing about Hornaday; If he isn't good enough to go into the Hall, then likely no regular Truck Series driver will EVER get into the Hall.
Yeah, I don't think a Trucks driver should ever get in. Who else is there, Mike Skinner?
If you want to have a true Hall of Fame that actually means anything as far as determining who the greats of this thing were, Ron Hornaday does not get in. If you want to give out participation trophies, talent or credibility or deserving it is irrelevant, fine, go ahead, but don't act as if the NASCAR Hall of Fame actually means anything.

I have no issue with ANYBODY mentioned here. Evernham, Shelmerdine, and Knaus are absolute first ballot HoF picks, not even disputable in my opinion. I find it kind of funny that for years we heard the only reason Gordon and Johnson won was because of their brilliant crew chiefs, but now we seem to be saying the crew chiefs only won because of the driver. ?????

The same conversation happens in other sports. Would Phil Jackson have been considered a great coach if he never met Michael Jordan?

I hardly heard anyone that put Gordon winning down to Evernham. He was definitely part of a successful combination but no one thought it was the only reason Gordon was winning. Shelmerdine...he's part of a successful #3 operation, and Earnhardt never had the success after (won season titles with Andy Petree in the 2 years after Shelmerdine left), although the Shelmerdine-less Earnhardt era was a completely different, more competitive, and more professionalized NASCAR than the era with Shelmerdine. Knaus, I mean, yeah, the #48 has been incredibly successful and he's been the guy on top of the pit box, but does anyone when they hear the man talk think they're in the presence of greatness? I guess this is part of my problem with crew chiefs. Drivers you can be wow-ed by their driving prowess. Owners you have to admit their organizational ability. Crew chiefs of the 3 are the most interchangeable of you can put a different guy there and the results long-term might not change all that much.
 
I would lean toward putting him in, but it's close. He does have the championship, but take away the title and he's basically Jeff Burton. Bobby also probably did himself a bit of a disservice by hanging around a little too long...2003 was the last year he was really competitive, but he hung around for about a decade after that, and was pretty much in nothing but crap rides after leaving JGR.
That was Bobby's idea, hang around and fill the bank account without breaking a sweat.
 
Find me a current racecar driver that will tell you winning a Truck title is a greater accomplishment than winning Daytona.

So should we kick out David Pearson then?

Yeah, I don't think a Trucks driver should ever get in. Who else is there, Mike Skinner?
If you want to have a true Hall of Fame that actually means anything as far as determining who the greats of this thing were, Ron Hornaday does not get in. If you want to give out participation trophies, talent or credibility or deserving it is irrelevant, fine, go ahead, but don't act as if the NASCAR Hall of Fame actually means anything.



The same conversation happens in other sports. Would Phil Jackson have been considered a great coach if he never met Michael Jordan?

I hardly heard anyone that put Gordon winning down to Evernham. He was definitely part of a successful combination but no one thought it was the only reason Gordon was winning. Shelmerdine...he's part of a successful #3 operation, and Earnhardt never had the success after (won season titles with Andy Petree in the 2 years after Shelmerdine left), although the Shelmerdine-less Earnhardt era was a completely different, more competitive, and more professionalized NASCAR than the era with Shelmerdine. Knaus, I mean, yeah, the #48 has been incredibly successful and he's been the guy on top of the pit box, but does anyone when they hear the man talk think they're in the presence of greatness? I guess this is part of my problem with crew chiefs. Drivers you can be wow-ed by their driving prowess. Owners you have to admit their organizational ability. Crew chiefs of the 3 are the most interchangeable of you can put a different guy there and the results long-term might not change all that much.

You can argue it all you want, but it is the NASCAR Hall of Fame, not the NASCAR Cup Hall of Fame. Sometimes you have to deal with the realities of the situation. You play the game by the rules you are given. Ron Hornaday is the all time greatest Truck Series driver, Just as Rickie Evans is the all time greatest modified driver, and Jack Ingram was probably the all time best Late model Sportsman driver, and they deserve to be in a NASCAR Hall of Fame, and this is the only one we have. And yes, I wouldn't be too shocked or too upset if Mike Skinner gets in too. Same goes for Jack Sprague.

David Pearson's career ran for a good 25 years, and he won the championship three out of the four years he actually tried to win it. Oh, and there IS the matter of 105 wins. Game over.

If you didn't hear people give Ray Evernham all the credit for Jeff Gordon's success, then you must have been living on a different planet between 1995 and 1999. It was one of the reasons Jeff was actually pretty eager to have a different crew chief after Ray left, just to prove it wasn't all Ray. Jeff is pretty clear about that in his autobiography. There again, you can argue all day long about who is more important or who should get the credit in a team sport, but if you don't want Evernham, Shelmerdine and Knuas in, what you're pretty much saying is you don't want ANY crew chiefs in, because statistically they are pretty much the top three in the modern era, and pretty much top six or seven all time. As I said in a earlier post, don't forget that Evernham REDEFINED the crew chief's roll and was a master innovator and motivator. In my opinon he was THE prototype for the 21st century crew chief. You might not be very impressed when Knaus speaks, but (please don't take this personally, I don't mean it as a slam) but the people who matter ARE impressed by him. Evernham was blown away impressed with Chad when he came in and applied for a job at age 22. He was hand picked to lead Rick Hendrick's new #48 team after ONE year as a crew chief on a mid pack car. He sure as hell impressed SOMEBODY. As for Shelmerdine, remember that he took a team that had never even won a single race and helped mold them into the most dominate team in the sport. I don't know HOW you can exclude him from the Hall.
 


I would expect that Nab, Elder, and Harry Hyde will all get serious consideration at some point, as they should. I think the fact that they are all dead means that there hasn't been a real rush to nominate them to this point.
 
Hornaday belongs. He's the most decorated NASCAR truck series deiver, ever as a regular. Honestly, he was still competitive when TS Motorsports stopped operation.

He will probably be the only truck driver in the HOF IMHO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sdj
Back
Top Bottom