Cup RACE thread --- Pocono

StandOnIt

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I agree. All day long, drivers got too high exiting turn 1, either on their own or pushed up there by traffic. They had to lift to stay off the wall, and they'd lose four or five places before regaining momentum. Hamlin gave Ross a little help getting up there too high, but Ross made the choice not to lift. Wrong choice. I thought it was an elegant, deftly executed example of payback. And I say that as a Chastain partisan.

Regarding Bondo Joe... I'm disappointed to see that Next Gen car preparation practices apparently have not embraced the practical imperatives of the new business model that team owners lobbied for so ardently. With spec chassis and spec bodies that cannot be "massaged," the owners have substantial cost benefits that are intended to fundamentally alter the economics of team ownership. If the prevailing attitude is as @Revman says it is ("We cheated, we got caught, we'll take our medicine and cheat smarter next week"), then this spec-based business model will fail.

When spec parts are mandated, there will always be large performance gains to be had by "improving" the spec parts. Of course there will always be gray areas that are subject to creative interpretations... but this is not such a case. Adding foreign material to the nose of the car, under the wrap to hide it, is not a creative interpretation, it's flat out cheating.

Do we want to return to the era when only about three teams could afford to keep up? Goodbye Trackhose, goodbye 23XI, goodbye Kaulig and Petty GMS, goodbye Childress and Front Row... only TRD and HMS and maybe Penske or SHR can run up front... is that what @Revman wants? Not what I want,, :mad:
I see nothing but positives so far. They nailed Keselowski who aparently took it upon himself to "improve" the wheels on Penske's and his race cars. Nascar just this week busted Petty GMS for changing the mesh on the exhaust boxes. Reading a lot of the social media about the DQ's of the rice burners, it's mostly favorable except for a few die hard yota fans. The finishing orders this year are showing that it isn't all lopsided because the smaller teams with less pit and driver skills many times are scoring well. I'm more convinced this year that this stupid chase nonsense should disappear. Somebody like Hamlin ranked 21 in regular points shouldn't be in the playoffs ranked 8th
 

Formerjackman

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Regarding Bondo Joe... I'm disappointed to see that Next Gen car preparation practices apparently have not embraced the practical imperatives of the new business model that team owners lobbied for so ardently. With spec chassis and spec bodies that cannot be "massaged," the owners have substantial cost benefits that are intended to fundamentally alter the economics of team ownership. If the prevailing attitude is as @Revman says it is ("We cheated, we got caught, we'll take our medicine and cheat smarter next week"), then this spec-based business model will fail.

When spec parts are mandated, there will always be large performance gains to be had by "improving" the spec parts. Of course there will always be gray areas that are subject to creative interpretations... but this is not such a case. Adding foreign material to the nose of the car, under the wrap to hide it, is not a creative interpretation, it's flat out cheating.

Do we want to return to the era when only about three teams could afford to keep up? Goodbye Trackhose, goodbye 23XI, goodbye Kaulig and Petty GMS, goodbye Childress and Front Row... only TRD and HMS and maybe Penske or SHR can run up front... is that what @Revman wants? Not what I want,, :mad:

This has been auto racing since likely day one. People can and will seek an advantage, legal or not and I don't think ANYTHING changes that, and those with the most resources will be the ones pushing the envelope the most. Everybody can stamp their feet and pound their fists and make whatever pronouncements for public consumption they want, but nothing ever has nor will it ever change except people will get even smarter and sneakier and how they push that envelope and I don't think ANY amount of penalty changes it long term. I promise you EVERY crew chief and engineer in the garage thinks they are smarter than the NASCAR techs and can pull one off. The fact that the entire field doesn't get thrown out every week shows they are probably right for the most part. It's kind of like the mafia. You KNOW some of your guys are going to get busted once in a while, but you take your medicine and move on. It's just the way it is.......
 

Formerjackman

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I hear you, but I see it differently. Sport is a place to let it hang out if you so should choose IMO. Whatever that looks like. I like end zone dances....trash talking on the court, and changing the mound. HOWEVER, in the arena of real life.....DO NOT EVER rip into a waiter or waitress in my presence......DO NOT EVER call someone a name. DO NOT EVER lay your hands on somebody unless it is self-defense. DO NOT EVER think you are better than anybody else. My two cents.
I don't have a problem with a LITTLE gamesmanship, but I don't think sports should be used as an excuse to be a jackass. Much like the REAL person comes out when drunk, I think the same thing can often be said in relation to how to people act in relation to sports. Also, keep in mind that as much as we hate to admit it, we have absolutely NOTHING to do with either JGR or HMS and it's not OUR fight. We're just interested bystanders. When I was on a team, I took a bad race hard and carried it with me the whole week or longer. (I'm STILL not over a particular three race stretch in 2002). When Chase has a bad week, I'm mad for about ten minutes then go on with my life.
 

Revman

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I don't have a problem with a LITTLE gamesmanship, but I don't think sports should be used as an excuse to be a jackass. Much like the REAL person comes out when drunk, I think the same thing can often be said in relation to how to people act in relation to sports. Also, keep in mind that as much as we hate to admit it, we have absolutely NOTHING to do with either JGR or HMS and it's not OUR fight. We're just interested bystanders. When I was on a team, I took a bad race hard and carried it with me the whole week or longer. (I'm STILL not over a particular three race stretch in 2002). When Chase has a bad week, I'm mad for about ten minutes then go on with my life.
I get what you are saying, but I see much of this differently....Jackass is relative. Don't agree about the drunk thing. WE have a lot to do with OUR teams and OUR fight. Without US, there is no fight. Sport in my opinion is about experimenting with ranges of emotion in preparation for the real life stuff. Passion. Completely not interested in an argument....just see it differently.
 

LewTheShoe

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This has been auto racing since likely day one. People can and will seek an advantage, legal or not and I don't think ANYTHING changes that, and those with the most resources will be the ones pushing the envelope the most. Everybody can stamp their feet and pound their fists and make whatever pronouncements for public consumption they want, but nothing ever has nor will it ever change except people will get even smarter and sneakier and how they push that envelope and I don't think ANY amount of penalty changes it long term. I promise you EVERY crew chief and engineer in the garage thinks they are smarter than the NASCAR techs and can pull one off. The fact that the entire field doesn't get thrown out every week shows they are probably right for the most part. It's kind of like the mafia. You KNOW some of your guys are going to get busted once in a while, but you take your medicine and move on. It's just the way it is.......
I know the history. And I know that 2022 saw the introduction of a new business model of team ownership based on spec chassis and spec bodies (thus spec aerodynamics except setup degrees of freedom). It was a change the the owners pushed for... hard.

If you're right that the culture of "cheat to survive" will never change, then this new business model will fail. In an era where no changes are permitted and nothing can be designed or fabricated legally, then designing and fabricating without detection will mean F1-level budgets and about two or three competitive teams. You might like it that way, but I don't.
 

Revman

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I know the history. And I know that 2022 saw the introduction of a new business model of team ownership based on spec chassis and spec bodies (thus spec aerodynamics except setup degrees of freedom). It was a change the the owners pushed for... hard.

If you're right that the culture of "cheat to survive" will never change, then this new business model will fail. In an era where no changes are permitted and nothing can be designed or fabricated legally, then designing and fabricating without detection will mean F1-level budgets and about two or three competitive teams. You might like it that way, but I don't.
Help me with this.....If the idea is to keep the chassis and body spec, why in the hell do these cars require assembly? What not ship whole cars, and teams drop engines in at the Tech Center....or with an official present....maybe at the track? Seems to me that if you allow teams to assemble, there is going to be some inconsistency at best, and what happened yesterday at worst.

....and allowing repairs to components? Really? Kinda spec breeds bull**** IMO.
 

StandOnIt

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Help me with this.....If the idea is to keep the chassis and body spec, why in the hell do these cars require assembly? What not ship whole cars, and teams drop engines in at the Tech Center....or with an official present....maybe at the track? Seems to me that if you allow teams to assemble, there is going to be some inconsistency at best, and what happened yesterday at worst.

....and allowing repairs to components? Really? Kinda spec breeds bull**** IMO.
They aren't having a problem with that
 

donthaveanickname

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I saw some of you say what an unlucky break for Harvick that he was crashed out while he was running 3rd and I cant help but agree. He's running out of time to get that win before the playoffs and even then he might not make it.
Harvick isn't even having a very bad season, he's still running a lot better than his teammates most of the time.
Hw would be safe with a win though, he has more points than six other drivers that have a win.
 

Formerjackman

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I know the history. And I know that 2022 saw the introduction of a new business model of team ownership based on spec chassis and spec bodies (thus spec aerodynamics except setup degrees of freedom). It was a change the the owners pushed for... hard.

If you're right that the culture of "cheat to survive" will never change, then this new business model will fail. In an era where no changes are permitted and nothing can be designed or fabricated legally, then designing and fabricating without detection will mean F1-level budgets and about two or three competitive teams. You might like it that way, but I don't.
Whether I like it or not like it has little to do with it. It is the way it is, always has been and always will be. I have never really bought into the cost containment model from the major car owners anyway. They TALK a good game, but watch what they do, not what they say. The "new" business model just lowered the threshold needed for them to outspend their competition. Instead of spending say ten million extra dollars to pound everyone else into the ground, maybe that number is now 3-5 million, but the results are the same. As I have said before, Rick Hendrick has an industrial park that fields FOUR cars, and he self sponsors one of them. Gene Haas couldn't piss away money in NASCAR fast enough, so he got into Formula One racing. Roger Penske bought Indycar AND IMS. Do you REALLY think I'm going to take any of these guy all that seriously about their desire to lower the cost of racing?
 

Jorge De Guzman

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Whether I like it or not like it has little to do with it. It is the way it is, always has been and always will be. I have never really bought into the cost containment model from the major car owners anyway. They TALK a good game, but watch what they do, not what they say. The "new" business model just lowered the threshold needed for them to outspend their competition. Instead of spending say ten million extra dollars to pound everyone else into the ground, maybe that number is now 3-5 million, but the results are the same. As I have said before, Rick Hendrick has an industrial park that fields FOUR cars, and he self sponsors one of them. Gene Haas couldn't piss away money in NASCAR fast enough, so he got into Formula One racing. Roger Penske bought Indycar AND IMS. Do you REALLY think I'm going to take any of these guy all that seriously about their desire to lower the cost of racing?
And that goes without mentioning all those Corvettes that Mr. H bought.
 

Formerjackman

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And that goes without mentioning all those Corvettes that Mr. H bought.
Funny you should mention that. I had a nice twenty minute or so conversation with a Mecum Auctions rep back in May, and Rick's collection came up. He said, (which I knew), that most of those cars he pays the huge money for, he doesn't keep anyway, most are auctioned off for charity, so there are probably tax benefits involved, and the rep said that most of the cars in the "collection" aren't really anything that special, Rick just bought them because he liked the car, or it fit a niche in his collection. He said it's a "nice' collection, but not worth anywhere near what most would guess. In fact, a he said a certain industrialist that lives about a mile from me has a collection that would EASILY rival or exceed it.
 

rd45usa

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Ford 222

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Chase Elliott has been doing a lot of talking about how lucky he's been with lane selection these last two weeks, but this one is just a whole new level.

It takes luck to win championships, just like the 5 last year and with all the breaks the 9 has been getting with double file restarts, it's just starting to have that sort of feel to this season.

Being fast is one thing, but being fast AND lucky over the course of time is as unbeatable as it gets. 04, 06-10, 15, 16, 19.


I picked Chase to repeat last year, but I'm locking it in this year.

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Wow…really going out on a limb with that July 24 prediction.
 

Jorge De Guzman

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Funny you should mention that. I had a nice twenty minute or so conversation with a Mecum Auctions rep back in May, and Rick's collection came up. He said, (which I knew), that most of those cars he pays the huge money for, he doesn't keep anyway, most are auctioned off for charity, so there are probably tax benefits involved, and the rep said that most of the cars in the "collection" aren't really anything that special, Rick just bought them because he liked the car, or it fit a niche in his collection. He said it's a "nice' collection, but not worth anywhere near what most would guess. In fact, a he said a certain industrialist that lives about a mile from me has a collection that would EASILY rival or exceed it.
you heard it here first Racing-Forums.com.
 

wi_racefan

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How do you change the shape of the bodywork with OSS?
I'm not familiar with optical scanners, which I believe they use (OSS) but we use some laser scanners at work and they all basically scan a determined grid size. What's between those points isn't measured.

IMO if they're using grid system for scanning based off known benchmarks it would actually be a lot easier to find the "in-between" area than you would think.

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Ford 222

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That’s exactly my point. Denny has just been in a JGR hot rod for 15 years. And he’s winning talent like those guys were, that came in at the top and was lucky enough to stay at the top.

I’m not disputing his results. I just don’t see him as the same caliber of driver as Stewart, Harvick, Johnson. Maybe Kenseth, Mark Martin tier.
Definitely not in the Mark Martin tier of “classiness” Certainly in his abilities but Mark didn’t get a good ride until he was in his early thirties. Imagine what could have been if an HMS gave him a ride when he was in his early 20’s like these drivers that have come along beginning with JG?
 

Spotter22

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Funny you should mention that. I had a nice twenty minute or so conversation with a Mecum Auctions rep back in May, and Rick's collection came up. He said, (which I knew), that most of those cars he pays the huge money for, he doesn't keep anyway, most are auctioned off for charity, so there are probably tax benefits involved, and the rep said that most of the cars in the "collection" aren't really anything that special, Rick just bought them because he liked the car, or it fit a niche in his collection. He said it's a "nice' collection, but not worth anywhere near what most would guess. In fact, a he said a certain industrialist that lives about a mile from me has a collection that would EASILY rival or exceed it.
Your Mecum friend is FOS. Jus sayin
 

RHRFan#1

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I've seen some folks on twitter losing their minds in anger over the win being taken away. I genuinely don't understand the anger. They cheated, they got caught, why should they keep the win?

Can someone help a brother out?
 

StandOnIt

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Your Mecum friend is FOS. Jus sayin
Back in 16 Hendrick bought the #1 serial numbers for 55, 56, and a 57 Vettes. Anyone care to guess what those three are worth? sheesh. He paid 1.65 million back in 16 for them. At the same auction he bought a 69 L-88 Vette (drool) for 525 thousand one of 116.
 

AdoubleU24

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I've seen some folks on twitter losing their minds in anger over the win being taken away. I genuinely don't understand the anger. They cheated, they got caught, why should they keep the win?

Can someone help a brother out?
If you're on Twitter or IG, it's likely because of who the win was awarded to lol.
 

StandOnIt

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I've seen some folks on twitter losing their minds in anger over the win being taken away. I genuinely don't understand the anger. They cheated, they got caught, why should they keep the win?

Can someone help a brother out?
You will get a headache trying to figure it out. Kenny Wallace was on there saying that a win is a win and he had quite a few agreeing with him. Of course he has never been thought of as having much upstairs.
 

kkfan91

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You will get a headache trying to figure it out. Kenny Wallace was on there saying that a win is a win and he had quite a few agreeing with him. Of course he has never been thought of as having much upstairs.
Kenny was probably drunk
 
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