David Wilson was “disappointed”

FLRacingFan

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How and the hell can you "beef" up a car and have it legal in Nascar? That is what I want to know
It doesn’t need to be NASCAR-legal for it to be advantageous to develop and test. How long were saying that Penske would have an advantage with the Next Gen since it is loosely associated with a V8 Supercar?
 

StandOnIt

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It doesn’t need to be NASCAR-legal for it to be advantageous to develop and test. How long were saying that Penske would have an advantage with the Next Gen since it is loosely associated with a V8 Supercar?
Instead of playing ring around the rosey, how about you name some specifics? Just how would this transfer to a LEGAL Nascar. Every body has much the same car in that series.
 

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Didn't read what he said.

"Incorporating future hybrid tech."

If they leave Le Mans and decide to incorporate some things into the Cup cars the following year, Hendrick will have a huge advantage. Especially since Chase Elliott and Kyle Larson will be running in that race.

David Wilson didn't call it an advantage, but it is one and we all know it. A lot of y'all are just ignoring it because you hate Toyota or like Chase Elliott. David Wilson called out the lack of transparency, to which NASCAR agreed - because they probably didn't think that part through in all honesty.
Didn't read what he said? "incorporating future hybrid tech" Where did he say that?
 

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Next Gen Camaro beefed up for reliability and incorporating future hybrid tech

Open wheel car with entirely different engine and chassis platform at about half the weight

Surely there’s a difference?

It doesn't matter what they do to this car, because they can't apply it to a Cup car. The "future tech" is something that will be spec. We all know Hendrick has been kicking around the idea of expanding into IMSA, and this is an opportunity for NASCAR to test some of their ideas in race conditions and gain some publicity.


If they leave Le Mans and decide to incorporate some things into the Cup cars the following year, Hendrick will have a huge advantage. Especially since Chase Elliott and Kyle Larson will be running in that race.

David Wilson didn't call it an advantage, but it is one and we all know it. A lot of y'all are just ignoring it because you hate Toyota or like Chase Elliott. David Wilson called out the lack of transparency, to which NASCAR agreed - because they probably didn't think that part through in all honesty.

Again, what would they incorporate into the cars? This isn't 1970 anymore. Inspections are still a thing and penalties are harsher than ever.

Elliott and Larson enter a lot of races outside of Cup. How's it going to give Larson or Chase an unfair advantage, exactly? Extra practice behind the wheel of a prototype? Good grief.
 

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Instead of playing ring around the rosey, how about you name some specifics? Just how would this transfer to a LEGAL Nascar. Every body has much the same car in that series.
NASCAR is strongly looking at hybrid powerplants in the future, GM, HMS, and NASCAR work together on mating a future or existing Cup-spec engine with a potential electric component. If there’s no transparency, GM and HMS have a leg up on the next generation powerplant. Same thing with any tire data they accumulate if Goodyear decides to incorporate it down the road, and same thing with gaining additional track testing for their aero platform.

It’s not dissimilar from what is currently happening in the ramp-up for the next generation of sports car racing prototypes. There’s a new spec hybrid system next year, and Porsche have been testing their car since January. No one else subscribed to the same rule set will roll out until June at earliest. All of the information attained goes to the sanctioning bodies and is disseminated to the other manufacturers. Any tire testing Porsche do for Michelin, the other five manufacturers all get data on. The spec hybrid testing, they all get data on.

All Toyota and Ford want in this case is the same thing. Some might call it crying. Anyone else calls it transparency.
 

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NASCAR is strongly looking at hybrid powerplants in the future, GM, HMS, and NASCAR work together on mating a future or existing Cup-spec engine with a potential electric component. If there’s no transparency, GM and HMS have a leg up on the next generation powerplant. Same thing with any tire data they accumulate if Goodyear decides to incorporate it down the road, and same thing with gaining additional track testing for their aero platform.

It’s not dissimilar from what is currently happening in the ramp-up for the next generation of sports car racing prototypes. There’s a new spec hybrid system next year, and Porsche have been testing their car since January. No one else subscribed to the same rule set will roll out until June at earliest. All of the information attained goes to the sanctioning bodies and is disseminated to the other manufacturers. Any tire testing Porsche do for Michelin, the other five manufacturers all get data on. The spec hybrid testing, they all get data on.

All Toyota and Ford want in this case is the same thing. Some might call it crying. Anyone else calls it transparency.
You have no idea or I about what they are going to do with a hybrid system. Tire data? At LeMans? Goodyear does that lol and inless I am missing something they all run the same tire. Aero platform? they can't change nothing to be legal in a cup race, they have a OSS inspection system that prohibits that.
 

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You have no idea or I about what they are going to do with a hybrid system. Tire data? At LeMans? Goodyear does that lol and inless I am missing something they all run the same tire. Aero platform? they can't change nothing to be legal in a cup race, they have a OSS inspection system that prohibits that.
Of course we don’t know for sure what it’ll be, but do you think it’ll be some bespoke design that has nothing to do with what might run in NASCAR’s future, or that it’ll be a component that might be run in a few years? You don’t think they might do a few tests a couple of blocks away at the Charlotte Roval where they learn something about tires or setups? There’s going to be a massive testing program to get this car ready for a major 24-hour race. Wouldn’t it be better to let other people see the data and the hardware instead of hiding it all? That’s all it really is.
 

StandOnIt

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Of course we don’t know for sure what it’ll be, but do you think it’ll be some bespoke design that has nothing to do with what might run in NASCAR’s future, or that it’ll be a component that might be run in a few years? You don’t think they might do a few tests a couple of blocks away at the Charlotte Roval where they learn something about tires or setups? There’s going to be a massive testing program to get this car ready for a major 24-hour race. Wouldn’t it be better to let other people see the data and the hardware instead of hiding it all? That’s all it really is.
I'm not naive enough to think that all of the teams won't be well informed when the time comes. I happen to believe that the hybrid system used whatever they come up with will be the same for everybody.
 

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It's funny watching Hendrick fans just brush this over.

Easier for y'all to admit you want NASCAR to give Chase an advantage.
I think it's quite obvious that Chase Elliott doesn't need an advantage. 2 years ago you were all aboard the 9 train, not sure when you fell off. Must've been all of those times the series showed him favoritism with penalties galore and late race cautions...
 

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Besides the issue of fairness due to learning on track, I can understand if Toyota and Ford feel frustrated that Chevy will be getting extra marketing on an international scale that wasn't extended to them equally. It's one thing if NASCAR had put out feelers with all three makes, or with Hendrick and Penske and Gibbs, and then they only had one taker. But this is going to get a lot of attention and if I was a competitor I would be irked that I didn't get the same chance.

It's hard though because it's only a spot in the race for one car, so it's like, what if all three had said yes? Then how do you decide? Or you decide to not run at all, but then NASCAR itself misses the big marketing opportunity.
 

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Revman

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Agreed. Even if everything is "above board" and all teams get any data found, the optics are just not good to allow the team that's already borderline dominating the series to participate in an event that could serve as a huge testing advantage.
It already isn't above board when the sanctioning body cuts the deal without the other OEM's knowing. I think France is flexing on this one....but I don't know why.
 

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Where did Wilson say it was an "unfair" advantage?

Asking for transparency about what is going on isn't bellyaching or crying, in all honesty.
Transparency was lost when the deal was cut. There has to be more to this. It makes no sense. All OEMs work together to develop and approve the Next Gen...and then this backdoor ****. I really don't get it.
 

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Transparency was lost when the deal was cut. There has to be more to this. It makes no sense. All OEMs work together to develop and approve the Next Gen...and then this backdoor ****. I really don't get it.
Action Express, Jim France's IMSA prototype team, and HMS, already have a working relationship on that side of things. It's a natural fit if Hunter decided that this 24 Hours of LeMans project was really important to him to accomplish putting on track. It's just the way it was done was goofy imo.
 

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Transparency was lost when the deal was cut. There has to be more to this. It makes no sense. All OEMs work together to develop and approve the Next Gen...and then this backdoor ****. I really don't get it.
Seems like SOI gets all the backdoor stuff...
 

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The optics already suck when Chevy got their Camaro 2.0, and now this happens in a dark alley in the middle of the night. WTF is NASCAR thinking? The Next Gen is a huge hit, and you do this.....Jim France **** the bed on this IMO.
Ah, there it is. I was almost missing reading this one it's been so long. What's the next step on the flow chart, we start pointing out how Toyota ruined Cup by demanding lower horsepower, which reached its nadir in the 550 package (which Chevy proceded to kick their ass in again)... It's been a while, so I'm rusty. :XXROFL:
 

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I suspect that Kyle isn't budging from his 10 million asking price. I don't think Kenseth did either. Hard to blame them.....
I wouldn't drive that POS for less than 10M either. (kidding, kidding)
 

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I think it's quite obvious that Chase Elliott doesn't need an advantage. 2 years ago you were all aboard the 9 train, not sure when you fell off. Must've been all of those times the series showed him favoritism with penalties galore and late race cautions...
Honestly think he needs something to b!tch about, and this was the cause du jour.
 

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He is getting it, him and Chase. I'm just calling out the Chase part because that's the reason the fans don't care.

Expecting transparency is a perfectly reasonable request. And NASCAR agreed.
And what advantage would that actually be?
 

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Action Express, Jim France's IMSA prototype team, and HMS, already have a working relationship on that side of things. It's a natural fit if Hunter decided that this 24 Hours of LeMans project was really important to him to accomplish putting on track. It's just the way it was done was goofy imo.
I understand that, but how in the world does it make sense to keep it from the other "partners" (quotes intended).
 

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And what advantage would that actually be?

Seat time being a big one. There's a testing ban in NASCAR and Chase and Kyle are about to get a whole lot of seat time. Even if it's modified, there are still things you can take over from this car and apply to the Cup cars. Just like there are things people learn in Super Late Model racing that they can apply to Late Model Stock racing.
 

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Ah, there it is. I was almost missing reading this one it's been so long. What's the next step on the flow chart, we start pointing out how Toyota ruined Cup by demanding lower horsepower, which reached its nadir in the 550 package (which Chevy proceded to kick their ass in again)... It's been a while, so I'm rusty. :XXROFL:
Okay, you are right, it has been awhile....so, is this where I ask for a source for the said request to lower horsepower?....and said request doesn't exist?
 

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Seat time being a big one. There's a testing ban in NASCAR and Chase and Kyle are about to get a whole lot of seat time. Even if it's modified, there are still things you can take over from this car and apply to the Cup cars. Just like there are things people learn in Super Late Model racing that they can apply to Late Model Stock racing.

You really think Chase and Larson are that desperate for seat time? Because they are such terrible road racers and need the practice, right? :wacko:

What, specifically, about this car can they "take over and apply" to the Cup side?
 

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Seat time being a big one. There's a testing ban in NASCAR and Chase and Kyle are about to get a whole lot of seat time. Even if it's modified, there are still things you can take over from this car and apply to the Cup cars. Just like there are things people learn in Super Late Model racing that they can apply to Late Model Stock racing.
You know, it isn't even that that bothers me. The "spirit of collaboration" has been the narrative from NASCAR for a number of years now as they share data in developing the cars. Then, Toyota finds out about this in a press release. Has NASCAR even addressed Toyota's dissatisfaction? At a time when NASCAR is begging for new OEMs, this doesn't send the right message of trust, does it? Even if HMS gains nothing, this is a slap in the face to a "partner" that has been loyal, and put money into the series--especially back in the day when the other OEMs were either getting bailed out, or fighting for their lives.
 

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You really think Chase and Larson are that desperate for seat time? Because they are such terrible road racers and need the practice, right? :wacko:

What, specifically, about this car can they "take over and apply" to the Cup side?



Drivers always want more seat time. Even the best drivers want more seat time to learn new things.

I know most of y'all are Hendrick fans and will continue to dismiss it - but there IS a competitive advantage here, there should have been more transparency from the start, and NASCAR agrees that there should be transparency in this.

In fact, now the people (Chase Elliott fans) who just dismissed this and said it's not an advantage are mad that NASCAR's becoming more transparent.
 

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Exactly. Bunch of nonsense. Anyone speculating that Chevrolet/HMS/Elliott/etc will benefit from this is full of it. That's like saying Penske, Ganassi, and Haas have an unfair advantage in NASCAR because they run open wheel.
If you are taking a car that represents the series to one of the biggest races on the planet, why in hell are you not talking to ALL of the OEM partners? ....and let's add this....Why the hell isn't HMS talking to the other owners about what they are doing to represent the series? Why is all of this so secretive? It's weird as hell....and does nothing other than create mistrust and speculation. Very strange stuff.
 

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Drivers always want more seat time. Even the best drivers want more seat time to learn new things.

I know most of y'all are Hendrick fans and will continue to dismiss it - but there IS a competitive advantage here, there should have been more transparency from the start, and NASCAR agrees that there should be transparency in this.

In fact, now the people (Chase Elliott fans) who just dismissed this and said it's not an advantage are mad that NASCAR's becoming more transparent.
If it's not an advantage, how about we put a spec motor in that thing, strip the emblems off of it, and put drivers from all manufacturers in it?
 

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If it's not an advantage, how about we put a spec motor in that thing, strip the emblems off of it, and put drivers from all manufacturers in it?

Because the Chase Elliott Cult and HMS fans know it is. Hence why they're mad about transparency now.

I mean, if it's not an advantage in any way, shape or form, why are they mad about all manufacturers being allowed at the race now?
 

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If you are taking a car that represents the series to one of the biggest races on the planet, why in hell are you not talking to ALL of the OEM partners? ....and let's add this....Why the hell isn't HMS talking to the other owners about what they are doing to represent the series? Why is all of this so secretive? It's weird as hell....and does nothing other than create mistrust and speculation. Very strange stuff.

I mean, it's the same team that got away with evading the test ban with the Track Attack stuff.
 

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Drivers always want more seat time. Even the best drivers want more seat time to learn new things.

I know most of y'all are Hendrick fans and will continue to dismiss it - but there IS a competitive advantage here, there should have been more transparency from the start, and NASCAR agrees that there should be transparency in this.

In fact, now the people (Chase Elliott fans) who just dismissed this and said it's not an advantage are mad that NASCAR's becoming more transparent.

I'm not mad at all. Couldn't care less about the transparency. I just think some of you are making a mountain out of a molehill.


If you are taking a car that represents the series to one of the biggest races on the planet, why in hell are you not talking to ALL of the OEM partners? ....and let's add this....Why the hell isn't HMS talking to the other owners about what they are doing to represent the series? Why is all of this so secretive? It's weird as hell....and does nothing other than create mistrust and speculation. Very strange stuff.


Hell if I know. None of us know all of the details behind how this came about, none of us know the conversations that took place and the full dialogue between NASCAR and the teams/manufacturers. Maybe Toyota/Ford has a reason to be irked by it, and if so, maybe that's fair to be upset. But from a fan's perspective, I just think it's yet another nothingburger for the Hendrick haters to bitch about.
 

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Hell if I know. None of us know all of the details behind how this came about, none of us know the conversations that took place and the full dialogue between NASCAR and the teams/manufacturers. Maybe Toyota/Ford has a reason to be irked by it, and if so, maybe that's fair to be upset. But from a fan's perspective, I just think it's yet another nothingburger for the Hendrick haters to bitch about.
Well, we do know how it came about really....the deal was cut with HMS, and Toyota and Ford didn't know about it. It's weird. I really don't care about the "Hendrick haters" or the associated paranoia that comes with being a fan of HMS, honestly.
 
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