Discussion: Good old days vs. new style racing

Mopardh9 said:
It's not racing, not the way it should be.
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Nostalgic lifestyle fans of the Early Nascar Era, of whom there are many here, will never see eye to eye with guys like @StandOnIt and @Spotter22 and others, who are into racing for the head to head brass knuckles competition.

The one group is attuned to cars that look a particular way, drivers that are "regular Joe's" complete with grease under their nails, and whatever Bill France said was unchallenged by the ever-friendly media of the day. And if a good race happens, well, that was always a plus.

The other group thinks "the way it should be" is exactly what we had last Sunday... two highly skilled heavyweights going head to head for all the marbles... without much care about what the cars look like, or whether the drivers tow flatbed trailers from race to race or fly there in personal jets. 1976 Mercury or 2018 Camry... who cares?

The biggest lesson I have learned in 3 years here at R-F is that these two groups are completely unable to understand each other. They constantly talk past each other without really hearing the other. They have completely different needs and wants, and so they will never stand united on what Nascar - or any other racing - could or should be. It is what it is.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Nostalgic lifestyle fans of the Early Nascar Era, of whom there are many here, will never see eye to eye with guys like @StandOnIt and @Spotter22 and others, who are into racing for the head to head brass knuckles competition.

The one group is attuned to cars that look a particular way, drivers that are "regular Joe's" complete with grease under their nails, and whatever Bill France said was unchallenged by the ever-friendly media of the day. And if a good race happens, well, that was always a plus.

The other group thinks "the way it should be" is exactly what we had last Sunday... two highly skilled heavyweights going head to head for all the marbles... without much care about what the cars look like, or whether the drivers tow flatbed trailers from race to race or fly there in personal jets. 1976 Mercury or 2018 Camry... who cares?

The biggest lesson I have learned in 3 years here at R-F is that these two groups are completely unable to understand each other. They constantly talk past each other without really hearing the other. They have completely different needs and wants, and so they will never stand united on what Nascar - or any other racing - could or should be. It is what it is.
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You are wrong...dead wrong, it seems there must be people here who think that people who grew up with actual racing in Cup, don't have a damn clue what is going on today. That couldn't be further from the truth. Sure I grew up with watching Petty, Pearson ,Yarborough, and saw the like s of Spencer, the Bodine boys, Park, and and a slew of others make the big show from the short tracks of New England. I grew up in the late 60s and early 70s , a great era of motorsports...all motorsports. Today, however, I look at Nascar and I see corporate greed taking control of the sport from a bunch of different areas, not just Nascars' side. What we had last Sunday, all year, wasn't "what it should be", nor has it been been for years. Manufactured drama is not racing, dictating when there is going to be a caution with stages, is not racing. Having a convoluted points system involving a Chase based playoff format is not racing. Who are we kidding here? Do you see any of this nonsense at your local track on a Friday or Saturday night? Before you say, I'm living in the past, I'm not, what I'm living in now is an era where all that matters to Nascar right now is money. They got their big corporate sponsor once again, the TV rights are good for a few more years, so what does it matter if the racing sucks? The cars suck, the attendance sucks, and the tv coverage sucks. It doesn't matter to the France family, they will say it does, but we all know it doesn't....they have their money and are laughing all the way to the bank. Once this next tv contract runs dry, Nascar won't be around as we know it, hell it isn't right now, but it will be totally different if not gone completely unless changes are made soon. I think most of us here on this forum understand what racing is, what good or great racing is supposed to look like, what we watch today is not that.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Nostalgic lifestyle fans of the Early Nascar Era, of whom there are many here, will never see eye to eye with guys like @StandOnIt and @Spotter22 and others, who are into racing for the head to head brass knuckles competition.

The one group is attuned to cars that look a particular way, drivers that are "regular Joe's" complete with grease under their nails, and whatever Bill France said was unchallenged by the ever-friendly media of the day. And if a good race happens, well, that was always a plus.

The other group thinks "the way it should be" is exactly what we had last Sunday... two highly skilled heavyweights going head to head for all the marbles... without much care about what the cars look like, or whether the drivers tow flatbed trailers from race to race or fly there in personal jets. 1976 Mercury or 2018 Camry... who cares?

The biggest lesson I have learned in 3 years here at R-F is that these two groups are completely unable to understand each other. They constantly talk past each other without really hearing the other. They have completely different needs and wants, and so they will never stand united on what Nascar - or any other racing - could or should be. It is what it is.
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StandOnIt said:
yep stuck in the 60's
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Not sure who or what I am, but I want to see a race that has more than 4 cars competing. That applies to all races including Homestead
 
Spotter22 said:
Aero has been an issue since 2 cars were on the track, spec cars are still set up differently, its just a common body to stop the whining, Go look at todays sedans, they all look alike anyway.
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Please don't state the obvious, aero is more of a disadvantage these days, when one car gets the lead and the rest can't catch him because clean air is such a huge advantage, we have a huge problem. Plate racing is the prime example of why these cars need to be fixed, in no shape or form was Cup suppose to look like this with a pack of 30 cars running 3 wide at 205. Some may call this exciting and awesome, I call it an accident waiting to happen , dangerous, and ridiculous. Aero issues are ruining the sport, sucking a car down to the pavement like an Indy car isn't what "stock car" racing was intended to be. Until or if these cars are ever constructed differently, Nascar will try to emulate INDY CAR style racing while appearing "stock".
 
StandOnIt said:
it might change your nostalgic memory and we can't have that. Most of the races on YouTube are the best races of that era Some of them are pretty decent, but compared to today it is walking and flying difference. Technology isn't going to go back in the box.
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It's funny how people talk about the "good ol days". Honestly the racing now is better, however the aero package is not. That's why 1.5 and tracks like Pocono, Indy, Michigan were more entertaining, you could catch a draft and slingshot around your competitors. Nowadays it's literally all car/driver dependent, if you've got the speed to get him you can
 
Mispeedway15 said:
It's funny how people talk about the "good ol days". Honestly the racing now is better, however the aero package is not. That's why 1.5 and tracks like Pocono, Indy, Michigan were more entertaining, you could catch a draft and slingshot around your competitors. Nowadays it's literally all car/driver dependent, if you've got the speed to get him you can
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Do tell how the racing is better? Were you around to see racing in person 30 years ago?
 
24ever said:
The only people that can save the team's money, aree the team's themselves.

They took away testing. The teams then invested those millions on computer models and wind tunnels.

They cut a over the wall guy, the team's made him a "driver comfort" specialist and had him do the wrench adjustments.

They took that away and they spent thousands on trick air guns.

They just removed a tire carrier (Only option I see for 5 guys) and I guarantee they are already looking at fueling from on top of the wall or air jacks.

They are going to spend the money folks. They may cut a salary here or there. But the budget will stay the same. They will just hire another Alex Bowman to run a gazillion hours on the simulator.
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I think those days of management thinking is coming to an end. At one time they all looked to hire the best driver they could regardless of the price. That is gone now.
 
Team Penske said:
I think those days of management thinking is coming to an end. At one time they all looked to hire the best driver they could regardless of the price. That is gone now.
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Maybe. But seriously look at Bowman, Byron, Bell, Elliot, Jones, Saurez.......these guys are no slouches.

Yeah they may work for 20% less but most of them are also driving 50% harder than the older crowd. Even Shrub has said with them in the field it is way different. He used to be the only jacking it 4 wide at Charlotte on restart. These kids do it at Martinsville.
 
StandOnIt said:
of course, I watch lap times during all the races. Cars with the exception of this year are closer than ever. Stages aren't a gimmick, they are a compromise between commercial times taking the green laps away and having a break so they can get them in under caution. Got to pay the bills..all sports have to.
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I would agree with you (I mostly do other times) if it wasn’t for.....how many times has Fox and NBC this year missed a green flag wreck, pass for the lead or strategy change while at commercial? Hell look how many things NBC missed this past race during its crown jewel Game 7 moment Championship race? That’s why I’ll always believe stages are a gimmick IMO, a way to make sure there’s a leader that doesn’t drive away or the field doesn’t get too strung out. I don’t like to compare racing to other stick and ball sports but in terms of revenue and business the NBA has TV timeouts, the NFL has timeouts after kickoffs and TD’s/extra points it’s what is needed to pay those bills. But I wish there was a way to do it in NASCAR without effecting the race or missing green flag action, stage racing is the best compromise it seems they could come up with. Doesn’t mean I have to like it but I can appreciate what they are trying to do.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
It doesn't matter to me if there is action going on while in commercial but what I don't care for is people doing magic tricks, worthless interviews, talking heads, cutaway cars while the race is going on. I don't care about freakin helmet cams, side cams, foot cams, brake rotor cams or suspension cams either.
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I like those cams, I used to love the foot cams ESPN would show at Sears Point ( you were in for a treat when they showed Ricky Rudd or Rusty Wallace) or Watkins Glen, it gave me an appreciation for the rythem and talent it took to win at those places.
 
StandOnIt said:
there are plenty of winston cup races on Utube, you can relive the events.
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I watch a lot of those, in fact I’ll have one or two on when I disappear from family today ha ha. Going to time travel back to a race at Wilkesboro I think don’t know what year yet though
 
LewTheShoe said:
Nostalgic lifestyle fans of the Early Nascar Era, of whom there are many here, will never see eye to eye with guys like @StandOnIt and @Spotter22 and others, who are into racing for the head to head brass knuckles competition.

The one group is attuned to cars that look a particular way, drivers that are "regular Joe's" complete with grease under their nails, and whatever Bill France said was unchallenged by the ever-friendly media of the day. And if a good race happens, well, that was always a plus.

The other group thinks "the way it should be" is exactly what we had last Sunday... two highly skilled heavyweights going head to head for all the marbles... without much care about what the cars look like, or whether the drivers tow flatbed trailers from race to race or fly there in personal jets. 1976 Mercury or 2018 Camry... who cares?

The biggest lesson I have learned in 3 years here at R-F is that these two groups are completely unable to understand each other. They constantly talk past each other without really hearing the other. They have completely different needs and wants, and so they will never stand united on what Nascar - or any other racing - could or should be. It is what it is.
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Reasonable post, I love this.
 
Snappy D said:
I would agree with you (I mostly do other times) if it wasn’t for.....how many times has Fox and NBC this year missed a green flag wreck, pass for the lead or strategy change while at commercial? Hell look how many things NBC missed this past race during its crown jewel Game 7 moment Championship race? That’s why I’ll always believe stages are a gimmick IMO, a way to make sure there’s a leader that doesn’t drive away or the field doesn’t get too strung out. I don’t like to compare racing to other stick and ball sports but in terms of revenue and business the NBA has TV timeouts, the NFL has timeouts after kickoffs and TD’s/extra points it’s what is needed to pay those bills. But I wish there was a way to do it in NASCAR without effecting the race or missing green flag action, stage racing is the best compromise it seems they could come up with. Doesn’t mean I have to like it but I can appreciate what they are trying to do.
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Many of the older drivers agreed among themselves to cruise for the major part of the race. Stage racing and those points have eliminated that to a degree. I doubt next year you will see any top teams not doing their best to get those points and that includes JJ. IMO, stage racing has forced the drivers to actually race.
Nascar sold the rights to the devil for this contract but they could exert force for NBC and Fox to change their method of broadcasting. Right now it is monkey see monkey do and that has to change. Nascar has to have a say in this. There are ways to show full page adds and there are better ways to show promos that do not cut away from the racing. The race has to become the focus.
 
Snappy D said:
I would agree with you (I mostly do other times) if it wasn’t for.....how many times has Fox and NBC this year missed a green flag wreck, pass for the lead or strategy change while at commercial? Hell look how many things NBC missed this past race during its crown jewel Game 7 moment Championship race? That’s why I’ll always believe stages are a gimmick IMO, a way to make sure there’s a leader that doesn’t drive away or the field doesn’t get too strung out. I don’t like to compare racing to other stick and ball sports but in terms of revenue and business the NBA has TV timeouts, the NFL has timeouts after kickoffs and TD’s/extra points it’s what is needed to pay those bills. But I wish there was a way to do it in NASCAR without effecting the race or missing green flag action, stage racing is the best compromise it seems they could come up with. Doesn’t mean I have to like it but I can appreciate what they are trying to do.
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you almost figured it out..stages don't catch all of the commercials, they will continue to miss some of the action. running away from the field hasn't been a problem for years and years. Another myth like all the 1.5's being the same.
 
StandOnIt said:
you almost figured it out..stages don't catch all of the commercials, they will continue to miss some of the action. running away from the field hasn't been a problem for years and years. Another myth like all the 1.5's being the same.
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Cole Custer sure did a good impression last Saturday.
 
Team Penske said:
Many of the older drivers agreed among themselves to cruise for the major part of the race. Stage racing and those points have eliminated that to a degree. I doubt next year you will see any top teams not doing their best to get those points and that includes JJ. IMO, stage racing has forced the drivers to actually race.
Nascar sold the rights to the devil for this contract but they could exert force for NBC and Fox to change their method of broadcasting. Right now it is monkey see monkey do and that has to change. Nascar has to have a say in this. There are ways to show full page adds and there are better ways to show promos that do not cut away from the racing. The race has to become the focus.
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Stage racing has....changed things I’m not sure if I like it or not though in terms of I like a guy like Mark Martin that hung out for a portion of the race, told his crew what he needed and then with 50 to go or so would be on the top 5 ready to get that checkered. On the other hand...it was pretty cool to see how MTJ worked those stage points all year to get to Homestead and then dueled it out with KDB. Now you’re right a whole lot of drivers/teams will rethink strategy and how they race to get as many of those valuable stage points as possible for next year. I just hope a thinking man’s racer isn’t lost in all of this because as cool as it was to see Jeff Gordon win all those races when I was getting into the sport...it was just as awesome to see Martin, Rusty Wallace, Dale Jarrett, Bill Elliott and to a more recent extent Matt Kenseth or Jimmie Johnson work on their cars all race and then ask at the end “where did they come from?!”
 
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StandOnIt said:
you almost figured it out..stages don't catch all of the commercials, they will continue to miss some of the action. running away from the field hasn't been a problem for years and years. Another myth like all the 1.5's being the same.
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We’re getting there, it takes a while to sink in. No one ever said it’d be easy
 
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Mopardh9 said:
Do tell how the racing is better? Were you around to see racing in person 30 years ago?
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How old are you? I doubt you even know who the driver is on my profile pic. I saw races in person as a kid at Hickory Motor Speedway when they still ran Grand National races there. Went to Darlington for a race in 1973. Then watched lots of races in person at Charlotte Motor Speedway from the later 70's through the later 90's prior to moving out of state. Obviously televised events started coming on in the later 70's and I watched any they put on.

Racing was much different then. Old school had less sophisticated engineering, pit stops, etc. You had a fairly set number of dominant drivers, far less than today, but the races were still more unpredictable. Motors, equipment failed more frequently. Someone pushing it hard could abuse the equipment and lose it. Drafting was real on large tracks and it made for some good close competition. Lead swapping was not uncommon among equal cars.

Every era has it's good and bad. Today I don't like aero push that makes dirty air such a difficult obstacle to cars trying to catch a leader. However, we have probably the most competitive number of cars (capable of winning) than ever. Lots of good drivers and a good share of characters as well. Shame we're losing some good drivers again but the young ones are dynamic and bring new flavor to the sport.

Being connected as far back as I am, I connect with second generation drivers or historic teams. Pulling for Chase and Blaney, and will pull for Bubba next year as he rides with RPM. Love the Woods Brothers and hate Ryan leaves them, but hope Menard can prove something on himself for the Wood's sake.

If people don't like the racing it's kinda like TV...turn the channel. Life's too short to put your time into something that wastes it.
 
Team Penske said:
Many of the older drivers agreed among themselves to cruise for the major part of the race. Stage racing and those points have eliminated that to a degree. I doubt next year you will see any top teams not doing their best to get those points and that includes JJ. IMO, stage racing has forced the drivers to actually race.
Nascar sold the rights to the devil for this contract but they could exert force for NBC and Fox to change their method of broadcasting. Right now it is monkey see monkey do and that has to change. Nascar has to have a say in this. There are ways to show full page adds and there are better ways to show promos that do not cut away from the racing. The race has to become the focus.
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yep I agree for most of it for once. All of the long races had a big lul in the middle where drivers were saving their equipment and taking a breather. You see how many of them are complaining about the heat and getting out of the car looking like they had been in a race instead of looking like they just stepped out of the barber shop this year?. This was the first year for the stages and a different way of showing commercials. It's an improvement IMO to the way it was.
 
Conover said:
How old are you? I doubt you even know who the driver is on my profile pic. I saw races in person as a kid at Hickory Motor Speedway when they still ran Grand National races there. Went to Darlington for a race in 1973. Then watched lots of races in person at Charlotte Motor Speedway from the later 70's through the later 90's prior to moving out of state. Obviously televised events started coming on in the later 70's and I watched any they put on.

Racing was much different then. Old school had less sophisticated engineering, pit stops, etc. You had a fairly set number of dominant drivers, far less than today, but the races were still more unpredictable. Motors, equipment failed more frequently. Someone pushing it hard could abuse the equipment and lose it. Drafting was real on large tracks and it made for some good close competition. Lead swapping was not uncommon among equal cars.

Every era has it's good and bad. Today I don't like aero push that makes dirty air such a difficult obstacle to cars trying to catch a leader. However, we have probably the most competitive number of cars (capable of winning) than ever. Lots of good drivers and a good share of characters as well. Shame we're losing some good drivers again but the young ones are dynamic and bring new flavor to the sport.

Being connected as far back as I am, I connect with second generation drivers or historic teams. Pulling for Chase and Blaney, and will pull for Bubba next year as he rides with RPM. Love the Woods Brothers and hate Ryan leaves them, but hope Menard can prove something on himself for the Wood's sake.

If people don't like the racing it's kinda like TV...turn the channel. Life's too short to put your time into something that wastes it.
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I'm going to take an educated guess it is Charlie Glotzbach, first guy to go 200 in a cup car. Look at a guys profile, gives you his age ...you know. I'm going to be 57, I grew up with all the guys you are talking about. Grew up in the northeast, with tracks like Riverside, Thompson, Stafford, and the Speedbowl. I've seen a lot of racing, my dad was best friends with a guy who was an owner of a modified that did well around these parts in the 60s and 70s. So yeh...you aren't preaching to a newbie. The cars maybe close on the track as far as qualifyin times separating the cars in the fields by less than a few seconds, but the racing sucks.
 
Someone is running away with it when 12 cars are the only ones out of 39 to finish on the lead lap like last week
 
Mopardh9 said:
Please don't state the obvious, aero is more of a disadvantage these days, when one car gets the lead and the rest can't catch him because clean air is such a huge advantage, we have a huge problem. Plate racing is the prime example of why these cars need to be fixed, in no shape or form was Cup suppose to look like this with a pack of 30 cars running 3 wide at 205. Some may call this exciting and awesome, I call it an accident waiting to happen , dangerous, and ridiculous. Aero issues are ruining the sport, sucking a car down to the pavement like an Indy car isn't what "stock car" racing was intended to be. Until or if these cars are ever constructed differently, Nascar will try to emulate INDY CAR style racing while appearing "stock".
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The car is on the ground due to the setups, not the aero. Bump stops and softer springs, are the reason. Aero has been and always will be a part of racing, with NASCAR and Goodyear working on softer tires Mechanical grip will be more of an issue.
 
Mopardh9 said:
You are wrong...dead wrong, it seems there must be people here who think that people who grew up with actual racing in Cup, don't have a damn clue what is going on today. That couldn't be further from the truth. Sure I grew up with watching Petty, Pearson ,Yarborough, and saw the like s of Spencer, the Bodine boys, Park, and and a slew of others make the big show from the short tracks of New England. I grew up in the late 60s and early 70s , a great era of motorsports...all motorsports. Today, however, I look at Nascar and I see corporate greed taking control of the sport from a bunch of different areas, not just Nascars' side. What we had last Sunday, all year, wasn't "what it should be", nor has it been been for years. Manufactured drama is not racing, dictating when there is going to be a caution with stages, is not racing. Having a convoluted points system involving a Chase based playoff format is not racing. Who are we kidding here? Do you see any of this nonsense at your local track on a Friday or Saturday night? Before you say, I'm living in the past, I'm not, what I'm living in now is an era where all that matters to Nascar right now is money. They got their big corporate sponsor once again, the TV rights are good for a few more years, so what does it matter if the racing sucks? The cars suck, the attendance sucks, and the tv coverage sucks. It doesn't matter to the France family, they will say it does, but we all know it doesn't....they have their money and are laughing all the way to the bank. Once this next tv contract runs dry, Nascar won't be around as we know it, hell it isn't right now, but it will be totally different if not gone completely unless changes are made soon. I think most of us here on this forum understand what racing is, what good or great racing is supposed to look like, what we watch today is not that.
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I've been racing for 30 years, this IS racing no matter how much you try to piss on it.
 
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aunty dive said:
Air-jacks are a costly, complex solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
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Agree 100%, but that didn't stop the IMSA Continental Tire Series (France family) that operates on budgets a fraction of what even an Xfinity team does from switching to them. Once again, the series thought they were saving the teams money, but owners said with their small teams, that guy was going be at the track anyway.
 
Spotter22 said:
I've been racing for 30 years, this IS racing no matter how much you try to piss on it.
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Yeh it's racing, but not good racing. I've been watching Cup for over 50 years, by far the last 5 years are the worst years as far as quality of racing in the sport.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Yeh it's racing, but not good racing. I've been watching Cup for over 50 years, by far the last 5 years are the worst years as far as quality of racing in the sport.
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Do you have a favorite driver or Manufacturer?
 
Spotter22 said:
The car is on the ground due to the setups, not the aero. Bump stops and softer springs, are the reason. Aero has been and always will be a part of racing, with NASCAR and Goodyear working on softer tires Mechanical grip will be more of an issue.
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No kidding....I didn't know that:rolleyes:...the cars are on the ground for speed and handling, get rid of the splitter, let the crews adjust on the rear spoiler angles and height, let them adjust the suspension more (shock packages), let them be innovative again. Then the racing will be better. I don't want to watch an Iroc series.
 
Mopardh9 said:
No kidding....I didn't know that:rolleyes:...the cars are on the ground for speed and handling, get rid of the splitter, let the crews adjust on the rear spoiler angles and height, let them adjust the suspension more (shock packages), let them be innovative again. Then the racing will be better. I don't want to watch an Iroc series.
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They are doing more under these cars then you could ever imagine, comparing these cars to IROC is comparing apples to oranges.
 
Spotter22 said:
They are doing more under these cars then you could ever imagine, comparing these cars to IROC is comparing apples to oranges.
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No it isn't. ..what can be adjusted is far more limited than even 5 years ago, and now talk of a special engine...come on this isn't a Mod Lite, this is Cup. If you can't afford engines you don't belong in racing at this level. Cup is most certainly in the realm of an Iroc series, spec bodies, suspension, gearing, if it survives another 5 years it will be completely spec.
 
Conover said:
If people don't like the racing it's kinda like TV...turn the channel. Life's too short to put your time into something that wastes it.
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Whether we agree with their logic or not, it appears that is exactly what a LOT people are doing, and it's NOT a good thing. I think sometimes when you are as closely invested in something like almost all of us on this forum are, it becomes hard to see how it is perceived by those with a more casual interest, and those are the people that make the difference between 50,000 people in the seats and 100,000. There are seldom enough hard core fans of anything to sustain it by themselves. Whether you agree or not, the vast majority of the people I know are just not as interested in the sport today as they were 15-20 years ago. Even if it's not NASCAR's fault, it IS their problem.
 
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