Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

DIDIT said:
It's pretty clear to me. Burton said NBC doesn't make the call. He is right of course NBC doesn't. NASCAR makes that decision. Influenced by NBC...probably, but NBC can't make NASCAR decisions. It's like your neighbor tells you your house needs painting, so you paint it. You made that decision, not your neighbor.
BTW, not talking about "you" specifically here.
Click to expand...

Emphasis on the word "influenced" as in your neighbor saying, "Paint your fugly house that I've had to look at for 20 years or I'll break your legs."
 
StandOnIt said:
Click to expand...

Everything Jeff said after the 0:20 mark is about the original decision to implement the playoffs. Notice everything he says after that point uses the past tense. I don't think anything he said relates to the current situation, at least not in the quoted 1-minute segment. He may have elsewhere in the podcast.

So this 'He said, he said' conflict ain't as it first appears. Burton is talking about twenty years ago, Gluck is talking about next year.
 
I don't see how expanding the final four to six will help anything, other than giving the Gerbils two more cars to obsess over. The problem isn't the number of cars involved, it's the 'single race / winner take all' format. Indeed, the more cars eligible, the less like a season-dominating driver will win the title.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Everything Jeff said after the 0:20 mark is about the original decision to implement the playoffs. Notice everything he says after that point uses the past tense. I don't think anything he said relates to the current situation, at least not in the quoted 1-minute segment. He may have elsewhere in the podcast.

So this 'He said, he said' conflict ain't as it first appears. Burton is talking about twenty years ago, Gluck is talking about next year.
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing. He was there when crazy Brian came up with the stick n ball idea. I can't remember who besides Gluck, but another one who was there in the meeting recently said that the TV people haven't said anything pro or con. That IMO is a decision in itself.
 
I don't think the playoffs back then were the whole problem, the clownish tire cutting car of tomorrow, lack of good racing on the cookie cutters, in other words Brian France's reign was a huge contribution to the changes for the worse decline.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't think the playoffs back then were the whole problem, the clownish tire cutting car of tomorrow, lack of good racing on the cookie cutters, in other words Brian France's reign was a huge contribution to the changes for the worse decline.
Click to expand...

Kinda like that old saying, when third generation takes over family business, they mess it all up.
 
StandOnIt said:
Here is gerbil Jeff stepping on his tongue.

Click to expand...

vocabulary.com: toady

Seems to me that Burton has a good chance of having his picture added next to this word in the dictionary.

toady

Other forms: toadies; toadying; toadied

You can call the kid who is always really nice to the teacher in hopes of getting a good grade a brown-noser or, if you want to sound clever, a toady.

The word toady has a gross, yet engaging history. Back when medicine was more trickery than science, traveling medicine men would come to a town. Their assistant would eat a toad (you read that right) that was assumed poisonous so that the medicine man could "heal" him. Who would want that job, right? So toad-eater, later shortened to toady, came to mean a person who would do anything to please his boss.
  1. noun
    a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage
    synonyms: crawler, lackey, sycophant
    types:
    -apple polisher, bootlicker, fawner, groveler, groveller, truckler
    someone who humbles himself as a sign of respect; who behaves as if he had no self-respect
    -goody-goody
    a person who behaves extremely well in order to please a superior
    type of:
    -adulator, flatterer
    a person who uses flattery
  2. verb
    try to gain favor by cringing or flattering
    synonyms: bootlick, fawn, kotow, kowtow, suck up, truckle
    types:
    -court favor, court favour, curry favor, curry favour
    seek favor by fawning or flattery
    type of:
    -blandish, flatter
    praise somewhat dishonestly
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't think the playoffs back then were the whole problem, the clownish tire cutting car of tomorrow, lack of good racing on the cookie cutters, in other words Brian France's reign was a huge contribution to the changes for the worse decline.
Click to expand...


I read this week that the first playoff race had 1.8 million viewers & the second & third had 1.5 million viewers. Apparently that is down over the first 3 playoff races last year but they didn’t say how much. They don’t count me but I watched every race this year!
 
StandOnIt said:
Click to expand...

I feel like the longer this goes the more a full season championship could be likely. I had thought this would be wrapped up already but it seems to be dragging out. I’m keeping my fingers crossed…a full season championship with an emphasis on winning races is the most fair way imo
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
I feel like the longer this goes the more a full season championship could be likely. I had thought this would be wrapped up already but it seems to be dragging out. I’m keeping my fingers crossed…a full season championship with an emphasis on winning races is the most fair way imo
Click to expand...
I would be so happy with that outcome
 
One can hope. It sounds like the TV bunch backed out of the chat. Besides gerbil Jeff I haven't seen anybody wanting any more playoff nonsense. Simple to change, tweek the old point system they had a bit. Throw away all of the computers they needed to figure the current scoring mess and there we go.
 
1758674638440.png

 
If all 7 of them were ale to maintain the required level of performance. If …

Uncertainty fuels our interest, no matter the format.
 
After many hours of fasting and prayers (with a few she-toes to prevent absolute starvation), I have figured out the way to fix the flaws of the current win and and you are in elimination resets yada yada a yada.

Nascar can just award a golden buzzard after the semi-final round and epic quintessential
cut-off walk-offs at Martinsville that will force a game seven race to include the most worthy driver that didn't make it to the final four.

They should also issue a decree that Austin Dillion is not worthy of ever qualifying for the final 16, and all of his points will be voided with a season of 26 cucumbers, from this point going forward and so shall it ever be. Some may be disappointed with the smite-free decree, but we should always be kind.

Note: In keeping with my cutting edge humility, I must admit that I had to hire someone to do the hours fasting and prayers mentioned in the first paragraph, but they were audited to ensure the sincerity.
 
@Greg , in recognition of your years of thoughtful service to the community, it is high time the members, moderators, and mismanagement of Racing Forums formally acknowledged you're full of ****.

Thank you from a grateful nation.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
@Greg , in recognition of your years of thoughtful service to the community, it is high time the members, moderators, and mismanagement of Racing Forums formally acknowledged you're full of ****.

Thank you from a grateful nation.
Click to expand...
If there is one thing in life that I know, it is that I am full if it.

I think 93.745603 % of population is full of it too. But maybe possibly my case is worse than most.

The only people I know that have a worse case than mine would be the ones that created and implemented the Nascar playoffs.
The chase sucks
.
 
Holy.Crap. It really seems the full season system is gaining steam here


And per Jeff Gluck of The Athletic

www.nytimes.com

Could NASCAR eliminate its playoff system? Here’s why it’s being considered

The championship is currently decided by eliminations, which often do not focus on the best drivers, let alone reward them.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

“When NASCAR first convened a committee in February to gather feedback on the future of its championship format, only one person advocated for eliminating NASCAR’s playoff system altogether.

But in the most recent meeting last week, numerous influential committee members spoke on behalf of scrapping the playoffs and returning to the full-season points format NASCAR used until 2003, which crowned a champion simply by total points accrued over the entire schedule of races.

In 2004, in an effort to infuse more fan interest in the final races of the season, NASCAR created the “Chase” format. After 26 races, the top drivers qualified for a 10-race showdown, points were reset, and the eventual champion was the driver from that group who topped the standings over those races.

The format was tweaked over the years and then overhauled again in 2014, when NASCAR moved to its current format — a 16-driver playoff over the final 10 races, with drivers eliminated at three different cutoff points before a final race between the four remaining drivers, top finisher takes all.

NASCAR is now seriously weighing the possibility of drastically overhauling the playoffs or doing away with them altogether. A modified playoff system, in which the most criticized elements of the current format are tweaked, may still win out. Yet the mere chance of going back to a 36-race schedule determining the series champion — a scenario which seemed borderline impossible seven months ago — marks a dizzying turnaround that speaks to a crossroads for stock car racing.

If NASCAR did opt for a return to the way its champion was decided for most of its history, the choice would be driven by a variety of reasons.

Here are five of them.

1. Star power​

One of the biggest issues in today’s NASCAR is the lack of major names who can transcend stock car racing and reach the general sports fan. Today’s NASCAR lacks a Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Jr., who would be famous enough to host “Saturday Night Live” (as Gordon once did) or draw large numbers of viewers who just want to watch them race.

Part of that is a playoff format that currently does not elevate greatness. The championship is currently decided by a series of short rounds and eliminations, which are intended to reset the field and prevent one driver from running away with the title. But the playoffs often do not focus on the best drivers, let alone reward them.

For example: As the regular season winds down, most of the storylines are focused on which mid-pack drivers will qualify for the 16-driver field — thus emphasizing non-winning drivers who might be outside the top 10 in the point standings.

Then, in the Round 1 elimination race, all of the TV coverage concerns which of the bottom drivers will get cut — again putting the spotlight not on the stars, but on the lesser-contending drivers barely trying to keep their longshot hopes alive.

By the time the playoffs get cut to eight drivers — perhaps the bulk of the true contenders — there are only four races left in the year, and NASCAR is racing against NFL Sundays on each occasion.

In a potential full-season format, the focus would be on a handful of drivers throughout the summer and fall. They would be talked about and elevated among fans’ consciousness, potentially helping to grow their brands and star power over time.

Currently, repeat winners in the regular season — victories which don’t affect the playoff picture — get largely overlooked or brushed past compared to when a new winner qualifies for the playoff field. In a 36-race system, those repeat wins would mean extending a lead or closing a gap to the championship leader, which would call more attention to the elite drivers.

2. Devaluing the regular season​

Drivers and teams lack the incentive to care about each race in the regular season.

Yes, there’s a chance they could win. And there’s a chance they could collect points to use during the playoffs. But with the win-and-in system, all drivers know it only takes one victory in 26 races to qualify for championship eligibility.

Let’s say a driver wrecks in the Daytona 500 and then blows an engine in the Las Vegas spring race. Are they going to be devastated? No, because all that really matters is making it through the playoff rounds in the fall.

If there were a full-season format where each of the 36 races were weighted equally, championship-contending drivers could never let up. They would have to maximize every finish and treat races in March, April and May as important as those in September, October and November. Bad finishes would represent a points hole from which drivers might become desperate to emerge.

NASCAR is at its best when it has consistency in storylines from week to week, the rolling “soap opera on wheels” which gives fans a thread to follow and a reason to tune in. That could build viewership habits; right now, it’s at times hard to identify the true contenders and rivalries because it’s constantly shifting with the roller coaster format.

For example: Denny Hamlin and Kyle Larson might be two of the top favorites for this year’s championship — but we won’t know that yet until the final weeks, if not the season finale itself. So while they’re both generally trying to advance, neither driver is necessarily trying to directly outperform the other — which would change if they were pitted against each other as two of the remaining title contenders in a full-season system.

3. Motorsports are not other sports​

One core problem with any “playoff” in racing is the difference between motorsports and “stick and ball” sports. The reasons are the same for why other racing series like IndyCar and Formula One (which has seen explosive growth without any sort of playoff format) have never strayed from a full-season points format.

First, racing is not a one-on-one competition. In NASCAR’s championship race between four drivers, there are 32 other cars on the track who could do unpredictable things — cause a crash, have a mechanical failure or accidentally drift up the track in front of another car. Having the champion of the longest season in sports potentially determined by a backmarker driver who messes up seems, to many fans, an unreliable method that can cheapen the outcome.

Second, no two racetracks are the same. Whether it’s size, shape, banking or grip level of the asphalt, various aspects of racetracks suit different drivers and teams’ strengths and represent weaknesses for others. By nature, focusing on one track or even a few races to determine the championship doesn’t truly reflect the best driver of the season.

Similarly, the field can be skewed by a driver who somewhat randomly wins a superspeedway race or one who is an ace at a certain type of track — say, Shane van Gisbergen on road courses — which earns spots over the season’s most consistent performers. This year, van Gisbergen won four races on road courses and entered the playoffs as the No. 4 seed, only to get quickly eliminated in Round 1 after he underperformed on three oval tracks.

4. The playoffs haven’t worked​

The current system was designed to increase drama and entertainment, and it arguably achieved that. Drivers were forced into must-win situations and sometimes excelled with their backs against the wall in heroic moments.

But that didn’t translate into viewership. It would be one thing if more people tuned in to watch the playoffs, but Sunday’s Round 2 opener at New Hampshire drew a paltry 1.29 million viewers; 20 years ago, the New Hampshire playoff race drew 5.5 million viewers.

In fact, none of the four playoff races this season has touched 2 million viewers.

So if the current system isn’t generating the intended audience — while also raising questions and criticism about its credibility — then why keep it?

At the same time, there’s a good chance that when fans see the best driver of the season rewarded for excellence and drivers know they won’t get tripped up by a format they perceive to be gimmicky at times, the “drama” will come from naturally unfolding situations. Drivers will still need to be excellent and not merely average to win a season-long championship.

5. Simplification​

The champion in a full-season format is determined like this: Whoever collects the most points wins.

That’s it. There’s no debate over which drivers deserve to qualify for the playoffs (the current “win-and-in” system has caused headaches at times), there’s no discussion of the confusing “playoff points” (separate from the regular points) earned for stage wins or race victories.

And most importantly, there’s certainly no talk of whether the eventual champion was worthy of his title.

The drawbacks include that if one driver has a particularly dominant season and runs away with the championship, it would render the final races largely moot. But in the era of NASCAR’s Next Gen car — which is a spec vehicle, requiring teams to use identical parts from a single supplier — teams cannot build their way to an advantage like in previous generations. By nature, it should be relatively close; there are currently seven drivers within 115 points for the mythical full-season title with six races remaining. Earlier this season, Chase Elliott overcame a 112-point deficit and went from fifth to first in just six races.

By the way, if someone did run away with the title and clinch early — wouldn’t that driver deserve it? While former NASCAR CEO Brian France often spoke of his desire for “Game 7 moments,” that overlooks the fact Game 7s are special because they don’t happen every time. Some series result in one-sided sweeps; others are classics.

The classics cannot be forced and must happen organically, which is something NASCAR’s current format does not allow. When the points are reset four times and the remaining drivers have a one-race playoff, it waters down greatness.

There might be some years when one athlete is dominant, but that’s sports. And that also happens to be how legends are made.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Holy.Crap. It really seems the full season system is gaining steam here


And per Jeff Gluck of The Athletic

www.nytimes.com

Could NASCAR eliminate its playoff system? Here’s why it’s being considered

The championship is currently decided by eliminations, which often do not focus on the best drivers, let alone reward them.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

“When NASCAR first convened a committee in February to gather feedback on the future of its championship format, only one person advocated for eliminating NASCAR’s playoff system altogether.

But in the most recent meeting last week, numerous influential committee members spoke on behalf of scrapping the playoffs and returning to the full-season points format NASCAR used until 2003, which crowned a champion simply by total points accrued over the entire schedule of races.

In 2004, in an effort to infuse more fan interest in the final races of the season, NASCAR created the “Chase” format. After 26 races, the top drivers qualified for a 10-race showdown, points were reset, and the eventual champion was the driver from that group who topped the standings over those races.

The format was tweaked over the years and then overhauled again in 2014, when NASCAR moved to its current format — a 16-driver playoff over the final 10 races, with drivers eliminated at three different cutoff points before a final race between the four remaining drivers, top finisher takes all.

NASCAR is now seriously weighing the possibility of drastically overhauling the playoffs or doing away with them altogether. A modified playoff system, in which the most criticized elements of the current format are tweaked, may still win out. Yet the mere chance of going back to a 36-race schedule determining the series champion — a scenario which seemed borderline impossible seven months ago — marks a dizzying turnaround that speaks to a crossroads for stock car racing.

If NASCAR did opt for a return to the way its champion was decided for most of its history, the choice would be driven by a variety of reasons.

Here are five of them.

1. Star power​

One of the biggest issues in today’s NASCAR is the lack of major names who can transcend stock car racing and reach the general sports fan. Today’s NASCAR lacks a Jeff Gordon or Dale Earnhardt Jr., who would be famous enough to host “Saturday Night Live” (as Gordon once did) or draw large numbers of viewers who just want to watch them race.

Part of that is a playoff format that currently does not elevate greatness. The championship is currently decided by a series of short rounds and eliminations, which are intended to reset the field and prevent one driver from running away with the title. But the playoffs often do not focus on the best drivers, let alone reward them.

For example: As the regular season winds down, most of the storylines are focused on which mid-pack drivers will qualify for the 16-driver field — thus emphasizing non-winning drivers who might be outside the top 10 in the point standings.

Then, in the Round 1 elimination race, all of the TV coverage concerns which of the bottom drivers will get cut — again putting the spotlight not on the stars, but on the lesser-contending drivers barely trying to keep their longshot hopes alive.

By the time the playoffs get cut to eight drivers — perhaps the bulk of the true contenders — there are only four races left in the year, and NASCAR is racing against NFL Sundays on each occasion.

In a potential full-season format, the focus would be on a handful of drivers throughout the summer and fall. They would be talked about and elevated among fans’ consciousness, potentially helping to grow their brands and star power over time.

Currently, repeat winners in the regular season — victories which don’t affect the playoff picture — get largely overlooked or brushed past compared to when a new winner qualifies for the playoff field. In a 36-race system, those repeat wins would mean extending a lead or closing a gap to the championship leader, which would call more attention to the elite drivers.

2. Devaluing the regular season​

Drivers and teams lack the incentive to care about each race in the regular season.

Yes, there’s a chance they could win. And there’s a chance they could collect points to use during the playoffs. But with the win-and-in system, all drivers know it only takes one victory in 26 races to qualify for championship eligibility.

Let’s say a driver wrecks in the Daytona 500 and then blows an engine in the Las Vegas spring race. Are they going to be devastated? No, because all that really matters is making it through the playoff rounds in the fall.

If there were a full-season format where each of the 36 races were weighted equally, championship-contending drivers could never let up. They would have to maximize every finish and treat races in March, April and May as important as those in September, October and November. Bad finishes would represent a points hole from which drivers might become desperate to emerge.

NASCAR is at its best when it has consistency in storylines from week to week, the rolling “soap opera on wheels” which gives fans a thread to follow and a reason to tune in. That could build viewership habits; right now, it’s at times hard to identify the true contenders and rivalries because it’s constantly shifting with the roller coaster format.

For example: Denny Hamlin and Kyle Larson might be two of the top favorites for this year’s championship — but we won’t know that yet until the final weeks, if not the season finale itself. So while they’re both generally trying to advance, neither driver is necessarily trying to directly outperform the other — which would change if they were pitted against each other as two of the remaining title contenders in a full-season system.

3. Motorsports are not other sports​

One core problem with any “playoff” in racing is the difference between motorsports and “stick and ball” sports. The reasons are the same for why other racing series like IndyCar and Formula One (which has seen explosive growth without any sort of playoff format) have never strayed from a full-season points format.

First, racing is not a one-on-one competition. In NASCAR’s championship race between four drivers, there are 32 other cars on the track who could do unpredictable things — cause a crash, have a mechanical failure or accidentally drift up the track in front of another car. Having the champion of the longest season in sports potentially determined by a backmarker driver who messes up seems, to many fans, an unreliable method that can cheapen the outcome.

Second, no two racetracks are the same. Whether it’s size, shape, banking or grip level of the asphalt, various aspects of racetracks suit different drivers and teams’ strengths and represent weaknesses for others. By nature, focusing on one track or even a few races to determine the championship doesn’t truly reflect the best driver of the season.

Similarly, the field can be skewed by a driver who somewhat randomly wins a superspeedway race or one who is an ace at a certain type of track — say, Shane van Gisbergen on road courses — which earns spots over the season’s most consistent performers. This year, van Gisbergen won four races on road courses and entered the playoffs as the No. 4 seed, only to get quickly eliminated in Round 1 after he underperformed on three oval tracks.

4. The playoffs haven’t worked​

The current system was designed to increase drama and entertainment, and it arguably achieved that. Drivers were forced into must-win situations and sometimes excelled with their backs against the wall in heroic moments.

But that didn’t translate into viewership. It would be one thing if more people tuned in to watch the playoffs, but Sunday’s Round 2 opener at New Hampshire drew a paltry 1.29 million viewers; 20 years ago, the New Hampshire playoff race drew 5.5 million viewers.

In fact, none of the four playoff races this season has touched 2 million viewers.

So if the current system isn’t generating the intended audience — while also raising questions and criticism about its credibility — then why keep it?

At the same time, there’s a good chance that when fans see the best driver of the season rewarded for excellence and drivers know they won’t get tripped up by a format they perceive to be gimmicky at times, the “drama” will come from naturally unfolding situations. Drivers will still need to be excellent and not merely average to win a season-long championship.

5. Simplification​

The champion in a full-season format is determined like this: Whoever collects the most points wins.

That’s it. There’s no debate over which drivers deserve to qualify for the playoffs (the current “win-and-in” system has caused headaches at times), there’s no discussion of the confusing “playoff points” (separate from the regular points) earned for stage wins or race victories.

And most importantly, there’s certainly no talk of whether the eventual champion was worthy of his title.

The drawbacks include that if one driver has a particularly dominant season and runs away with the championship, it would render the final races largely moot. But in the era of NASCAR’s Next Gen car — which is a spec vehicle, requiring teams to use identical parts from a single supplier — teams cannot build their way to an advantage like in previous generations. By nature, it should be relatively close; there are currently seven drivers within 115 points for the mythical full-season title with six races remaining. Earlier this season, Chase Elliott overcame a 112-point deficit and went from fifth to first in just six races.

By the way, if someone did run away with the title and clinch early — wouldn’t that driver deserve it? While former NASCAR CEO Brian France often spoke of his desire for “Game 7 moments,” that overlooks the fact Game 7s are special because they don’t happen every time. Some series result in one-sided sweeps; others are classics.

The classics cannot be forced and must happen organically, which is something NASCAR’s current format does not allow. When the points are reset four times and the remaining drivers have a one-race playoff, it waters down greatness.

There might be some years when one athlete is dominant, but that’s sports. And that also happens to be how legends are made.
Click to expand...
Oops apologies. I messed up my lead from twitter

 
This was an interesting discussion about the behind-the-scenes regarding some of the major changes in NASCAR over the past 20 years. Dale Jr. also said a lot of people on the playoff format committee are acknowledging the merits of a full season championship.

 
The playoffs have done enormous damage. Basically one decade of Chase championships that are somewhat compromised, and another decade of one-race, winner-take-all farces that are absolutely worthless and a stain on the legacy of the series. That isn't the fault of the drivers and teams that won them. It's all on Brian France and his enablers.

However, it is never too late to admit the mistake and try to set things right going forward. This is obviously being released publicly as a trial balloon to gauge reaction. It is difficult to see them throwing it out there and then yanking it back and going with more playoffs tweaks. They may have realized that further half measures to save a fundamentally flawed concept aren't going to do a damn bit of good. We'll see. The recent marketing announcements about "going back to NASCAR's roots" will gain a lot of momentum if they rip of the Band-Aid and back up those words with actions.
 
They should have playoffs but move it to a 3 race format. Full season points should not be an option.
 
gnomesayin said:
The playoffs have done enormous damage. Basically one decade of Chase championships that are somewhat compromised, and another decade of one-race, winner-take-all farces that are absolutely worthless and a stain on the legacy of the series. That isn't the fault of the drivers and teams that won them. It's all on Brian France and his enablers.

However, it is never too late to admit the mistake and try to set things right going forward. This is obviously being released publicly as a trial balloon to gauge reaction. It is difficult to see them throwing it out there and then yanking it back and going with more playoffs tweaks. They may have realized that further half measures to save a fundamentally flawed concept aren't going to do a damn bit of good. We'll see. The recent marketing announcements about "going back to NASCAR's roots" will gain a lot of momentum if they rip of the Band-Aid and back up those words with actions.
Click to expand...
Well said. It never was the fault of the drivers that won those championships or the teams, it was the people that put those rules in place. The playoffs are the last of the skid marks left to get rid of from the Brian France era. The last 20 years in terms of formats used to crown a championship have been a colossal failure. It over complicated driver legacies while enabling fan apathy. I too think along the same lines as you in that this is a trial ballon and the train is getting ready to leave the station, they'd have more egg on their face at this point if they tweaked the playoff system more. It's actually easy to come back from this, just launch a huge campaign "This is our roots, this is who we are and its time to go back. See you at Daytona in 2026."
 
gnomesayin said:
This is obviously being released publicly as a trial balloon to gauge reaction. It is difficult to see them throwing it out there and then yanking it back and going with more playoffs tweaks.
Click to expand...
If Jeff Gluck and Adam Stern are talking about it, then there definitely weight to it.

To really send the message, I hope that every remaining race this year gets under 1.5m viewers and I’d especially love if one dropped under 1M (would likely be the Roval). Really drill the point into their heads.
 
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