Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

DIDIT said:
How do you know this is a failure? There is no side by side comparison in this environment. Isn’t it entirely possible that the result would be the same with a season long championship?

Kind of like letting me taste a Snickers bar and asking if I like it better than a Milky Way without letting me try the Milky Way.
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The counterfactual scenario never exists in the real world. When changes are made, results are observed and judged. In this case, late season viewership has declined more than the rest of the season since the playoffs were introduced, and are sinking to new record lows this season as the debate rages.

While "It would have been even worse if we hadn't made that change" is always technically possible, this kind of excuse making is rarely accepted in environments that demand performance.
 
Revman said:
I like him, but does he understand that the last couple of races could become meaningless? I will go to the same number of races as I always have....maybe more, but I would be less inclined to by tickets to late season races not knowing if there would be any greater significance.
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That's the thing about late-season races. Even if the championship is decided, the race will still be run. Drivers will still be competing for the win just as hard as they did the previous 34 or 35 races. IndyCar put on two great races to close the season despite the title being locked up.

You need significance? Those other 35 cars will still be fighting for final season rankings, and those can make a big difference in cash. Indeed, the lock-ins at the end of each playoff round are counterproductive; a team that was 12th or 14th before the playoffs has little reason to bust its ass when it can't end the year better than 17th.
 
gnomesayin said:
Hey that's a good idea. Also, why do the cars have these meaningless numbers on them? Why does Chase Elliott drive the #9 car and Ryan Blaney #12? Who cares about that? Elliott should be driving the -23 car today.
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Revive the idea to put sports car-style LED numbers on the rear quarter panel to show position.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Revive the idea to put sports car-style LED numbers on the rear quarter panel to show position.
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Go all out Nascar. Put them all the way across the rear window also. With the numbers on their suits, and blinking playoff points on the cars we will always know where they are in the epic playoff battle. Blue numbers for those already advancing to the next round, green for the in guys and red for the ones below the cut line.
 
What we could've had man. A fun 2 race battle with two to go.
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DIDIT said:
How do you know this is a failure? There is no side by side comparison in this environment. Isn’t it entirely possible that the result would be the same with a season long championship?

Kind of like letting me taste a Snickers bar and asking if I like it better than a Milky Way without letting me try the Milky Way.
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Some of these people stub their toes on their bed posts and blame the playoffs, I, myself, yelled “****** playoffs” while stuck in rush hour traffic on Friday.
 
gnomesayin said:
The counterfactual scenario never exists in the real world. When changes are made, results are observed and judged. In this case, late season viewership has declined more than the rest of the season since the playoffs were introduced, and are sinking to new record lows this season as the debate rages.

While "It would have been even worse if we hadn't made that change" is always technically possible, this kind of excuse making is rarely accepted in environments that demand performance.
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Great! I see you understand my point, but don’t agree. Without the playoffs, NASCAR “could” be radically different today and not for the better.
 
StandOnIt said:
That's entirely possible, but there won't be an 11th place Cup driver winning the lottery round, or two years in a row a dominate Truck driver loses the lottery round, one of those years the driver that won the championship only won one race the whole season, the last lottery race. This whole playoff B.S. was started years ago because of exactly to prevent this same thing happening.

Now, this year, Connor Zilisch with 10 wins in Xfinity, and Corey Heim also has 10 wins presently. What kind of a joke will it be once again, how excited will fans be if somebody else besides either one of them wins the championship? Are fans going to walk away with a good taste in their mouths after watching a whole season of racing to see it come down to that...once again?

How important IS the championship to suffer thru all of this playoff B.S. to watch these drivers get royally screwed?
And some people wonder why fans don't like the playoffs?
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I just have a different way of looking at it. There are teams and “players” that rise to the game 7 moments and I don’t see anything wrong with it. My daughters raced BMX on a state and national level and participated in the World Championships one year. It didn’t mater if they beat the other riders at every qualifying and preliminary event, what determined the championship was their respective place in the final moto. I never heard anyone complain about it.
 
DIDIT said:
I just have a different way of looking at it. There are teams and “players” that rise to the game 7 moments and I don’t see anything wrong with it. My daughters raced BMX on a state and national level and participated in the World Championships one year. It didn’t mater if they beat the other riders at every qualifying and preliminary event, what determined the championship was their respective place in the final moto. I never heard anyone complain about it.
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...and when you see the crews thrash in arguably one of the greatest infield experiences in the sport, it is epic. The moment is palpable. Can't wait for Phoenix.
 
DIDIT said:
I just have a different way of looking at it. There are teams and “players” that rise to the game 7 moments and I don’t see anything wrong with it. My daughters raced BMX on a state and national level and participated in the World Championships one year. It didn’t mater if they beat the other riders at every qualifying and preliminary event, what determined the championship was their respective place in the final moto. I never heard anyone complain about it.
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I don't know BMX from BMW but I'm betting that everyone in that final moto was eligible for the championship, and there were no other participants from those lower levels rounding out their seasons. Playoffs works because there's a national base of hundreds (thousands?) to eliminate. There's still enough participants left to field a full event at the end.

That's a good approach but if NASCAR did that, we'd be watching only eight or four cars and trucks for each series last four races.
 
DIDIT said:
How do you know this is a failure? There is no side by side comparison in this environment. Isn’t it entirely possible that the result would be the same with a season long championship?
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I mean, this the same logic as the people (and they exist) who say that Indycar's split didn't mean anything because it always would have wound up like it is now. That's speculation posing as evidence. There's an intervention here with NASCAR, there's been an experiment run for 20 years, there are many data points to look at, and there are competing products which have seen growth in the US market who have not opted for playoffs. As others have said, where is the evidence this worked beyond the speculative, "It might be worse"? Also: "It might be worse" is not exactly the sort of thing you say about something that is working well. If it works, it is self evident that it works. What F1 has done in an attempt to grow their fanbase worked. There's nothing showing this works to increase interest.
 
Pretty sure losing 2 drivers in Nascar's largest fan base including their most popular driver in the series isn't going to hurt anything right?
 
StandOnIt said:
Pretty sure losing 2 drivers in Nascar's largest fan base including their most popular driver in the series isn't going to hurt anything right?
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Luckily for everyone, Joey Logano and his 11 top ten finishes for 2025 is still in the game. If he wins one of the next two weeks, he pushes out someone who won more and finished higher in the standings on average every week yet again for another year. Sure, all the data suggests the fans hate this and it repels them, but you know, what if NASCAR did worse things than this? Not that this is bad, I'm just saying they could do worse for some reason when worse means it's already bad. Be happy with your gruel.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
William Byron, the regular season champ losing his shot at a championship because Ty Dillon and his spotter couldnt get him to pit road is yet another example of this format being horrendous.
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Brendan Gaughan and Davey Allison would like a word. Some of these things, like the existence of idiots, is endemic to auto racing.

Sometimes things happen outside of the driver’s control. If Hendrick engines hadn’t been unreliable at Talladega in 2002, Jimmie Johnson could have been a rookie champion. If Dale Earnhardt’s cam shaft hadn’t broken at Charlotte in 1989 (and then he hadn’t gotten into Ricky Rudd the following week at North Wilkesboro), he would likely be an 8 time champion.

I want a full season championship too, but this same argument could easily resurface under that format too.
 
Naitch said:
Brendan Gaughan and Davey Allison would like a word. Some of these things, like the existence of idiots, is endemic to auto racing.

Sometimes things happen outside of the driver’s control. If Hendrick engines hadn’t been unreliable at Talladega in 2002, Jimmie Johnson could have been a rookie champion. If Dale Earnhardt’s cam shaft hadn’t broken at Charlotte in 1989 (and then he hadn’t gotten into Ricky Rudd the following week at North Wilkesboro), he would likely be an 8 time champion.

I want a full season championship too, but this same argument could easily resurface under that format too.
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But in the true nature of a playoff, Dillon shouldnt have even been in the race. Thats the logic I always failed to understand, why are non playoff drivers racing with and sometimes affecting playoff drivers? Its not right and frankly its stupid.
 
Naitch said:
Brendan Gaughan and Davey Allison would like a word. Some of these things, like the existence of idiots, is endemic to auto racing.

Sometimes things happen outside of the driver’s control. If Hendrick engines hadn’t been unreliable at Talladega in 2002, Jimmie Johnson could have been a rookie champion. If Dale Earnhardt’s cam shaft hadn’t broken at Charlotte in 1989 (and then he hadn’t gotten into Ricky Rudd the following week at North Wilkesboro), he would likely be an 8 time champion.

I want a full season championship too, but this same argument could easily resurface under that format too.
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Harvick at Dega, Kenseth vs Logano at Martinsville, Clint's Itch, Bowman's DQ saving Logano, Dillon driving like a wrecking ball because Win and You're win at Richmond, multiple instances of team and manufacturer orders throughout past playoff races. You're right strange things happened under the old format too, but when your whole sport and fan experience is based around these last 10 races the things I listed off are even more egregious mishaps.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
Harvick at Dega, Kenseth vs Logano at Martinsville, Clint's Itch, Bowman's DQ saving Logano, Dillon driving like a wrecking ball because Win and You're win at Richmond, multiple instances of team and manufacturer orders throughout past playoff races. You're right strange things happened under the old format too, but when your whole sport and fan experience is based around these last 10 races the things I listed off are even more egregious mishaps.
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NASCAR’s issue is that they see this stuff as a feature, not a glitch. They want the chaos of it all.
 
Naitch said:
Brendan Gaughan and Davey Allison would like a word. Some of these things, like the existence of idiots, is endemic to auto racing.

Sometimes things happen outside of the driver’s control. If Hendrick engines hadn’t been unreliable at Talladega in 2002, Jimmie Johnson could have been a rookie champion. If Dale Earnhardt’s cam shaft hadn’t broken at Charlotte in 1989 (and then he hadn’t gotten into Ricky Rudd the following week at North Wilkesboro), he would likely be an 8 time champion.

I want a full season championship too, but this same argument could easily resurface under that format too.
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These above are mostly mechanical failures and racing incidents. Those happen naturally in racing as opposed to continuous outright cheating or win and you are in advancing because of side show made up gimmicks, and like unpopular dis-ingenue points reset manipulations. Big difference.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
William Byron, the regular season champ losing his shot at a championship because Ty Dillon and his spotter couldnt get him to pit road is yet another example of this format being horrendous.
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Like I mentioned, I guess it depends on which scoring system you want to go with to see how bad this is or isn't. Remember, I'm in favor and strongly strongly support the full season points. But we have to look at it this way. If we never changed points systems, we probably still be using the scaling system from Winston Cup.

With the old Wiston Cup Format, points scoring and all, he's had a big collapse.
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Now if we go with a full season but keep how the points are scored now, he definitely is being screwed.
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Naitch said:
NASCAR’s issue is that they see this stuff as a feature, not a glitch. They want the chaos of it all.
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yeah 100% agree, I just feel that imo this system amplifies the chaos of it if that makes sense. I want less chaos and more settled on track to be honest.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
As.a Kenseth fan, I don't know if Matt planned it since Kansas. But once Kez wrecked him, it wouldn't have mattered if there was or wasn't a playoff system for Matt to have been take out of. When he limped back out, Stevie Wonder could see it coming.
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Now only if Stevie could see the clothes that are laid out for him each morning . . . :cool:
 
Charlie Spencer said:
As.a Kenseth fan, I don't know if Matt planned it since Kansas. But once Kez wrecked him, it wouldn't have mattered if there was or wasn't a playoff system for Matt to have been take out of. When he limped back out, Stevie Wonder could see it coming.
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I lost so much respect for Matt that day. The Kansas thing was Matt desperate to win a race and blocking like crazy to the point he ran Joey into the wall at one point. IMO that's one of those FAFO moments.

Now coming out of the pits several laps down to wreck the leader, that's some Bowman Gray crap, not something you should be seeing at the top level.
 
wi_racefan said:
I lost so much respect for Matt that day. The Kansas thing was Matt desperate to win a race and blocking like crazy to the point he ran Joey into the wall at one point. IMO that's one of those FAFO moments.

Now coming out of the pits several laps down to wreck the leader, that's some Bowman Gray crap, not something you should be seeing at the top level.
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I agree, looked Bowman Gray all the way, but there are plenty of fans that love that kind of stuff. Logano bumped him two or three times and Kenseth kept blocking obviously slower. All that was left for the full Bowman Gray was for Logano to run down there and start wailing on Kenseth.
In the real world Kenseth would have felt the pain of being set out for two races but with the playoff nonsense he was neutered anyway by the points reset.
 
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