F1: Round 4 Baku

I feel like I just watched Talladega. Lots of mixed emotions but well entertained.
 
That was one of the weirdest races...

- Sirotkin punted Perez - Sirotikin has penalty
- Hulkenburg squeezed the **** out of Sirotkin and Alonso, ruined Sirotkin's race and Alonso's slightly.
- Ocon squeezed Raikkonen for no reason, Ocon ****** himself.
- Ericsson ****** K-Mag out of points.
- Red Bull being Red Bull, I bet they won't allow them to race now.
- Ferrari pitted when they would have had control of the race
- Grojsean got in his own way, again. He has some issues fighting himself a lot.
- Bottas got ****** by debris and had the race won and Lewis was given the race on a platter.

Honestly, Raikkonen should have had this race won... Ferrari ****** themselves, again... Kimi should have two wins by now.
 
Grosjean threw away a probable podium for Haas. Good ****** going, again.

K-Mag was in the points after the melee and faded back to 13th.


**** the last 10 laps of that race... Congrats to Perez and also Sauber, I guess.
 
Verstappen is probably locked in, but with Ricciardo out of contract I am not sure summoning him to the factory and making him humiliate himself in front of everyone ist going to motive him to stay. Ys is only one race after Ricciardo scored an unlikely win for the ages.

I mean, after all, these guys are adults and want to be treated as such.

Verstappen, Ricciardo ordered to apologise at Red Bull factory

So what? They crashed. Any time you let people race this is a potential outcome.

I don't remember this kind of stink when Verstappen took out Vettel in China. That was probably just fine since it allowed the other Red Bull to win. Verstappen ran into just about everybody at some point last year, but only now it's a problem? The entire grid was questioning Verstappen's judgment in wheel to wheel (including Ricciardo after Hungary) , but they don't count? It's a problem only if it affects Red Bull. Sure, you can ruin Kimmi's race, and you can even spin Vettel around when he's in the lead. You can ram the points leader off the road with two races to go and we don't care as long as it's not Ricciardo. You can smash anyone, except, errrrr, Riccardo. Hey, I am not specifically ragging on Verstappen, but it's pretty clear Ricciardo has never had a problem with anyone else in spite of being the hardest racer on the grid. Danny screws up exactly one time and now he has to go to the factory and beg for forgiveness?

Being a Red Bull driver is it's own kind of pressure cooker, but once they get to F1 it's time to stop treating them like children. They both apologized to each other (right away, in fact) and to the team, so why not just let it go? They know what they did and they know they ****ed up. You don't treat grownups like this. You ask them if they knew what they did wrong and if they say yes you let it slide.

This is a lot different from the way Mercedes handled Hamilton and Rosberg. Every time they clashed they were quick to point the finger at each other, which doesn't exactly convey a sense of remorse. Toto promised "consequences" so many times the drivers knew they could do something as outrageous as running over Toto's dog with a dump truck and there would be no "consequence." That's why they both raced each other like a pair of rabid little ankle biting zombie Chihuahuas. They did it so many times you almost had to expect it coming. The difference here is that before this, Max and Dani have gotten into each other once, which Verstappen assumed full responsibility for. They both accept responsibility this time, so what's the point of humiliating them?

If I am running Red Bull I let it go the moment they both tell me they are sorry and it won't happen again. Dragging them to the factory for a groveling session isn't going to help their motivation. One more thing: why wasn't there this kind of handwringing when Vettel and Webber took each other out in Turkey?
 
Doc Austin said:
Verstappen is probably locked in, but with Ricciardo out of contract I am not sure summoning him to the factory and making him humiliate himself in front of everyone ist going to motive him to stay. Ys is only one race after Ricciardo scored an unlikely win for the ages.

I mean, after all, these guys are adults and want to be treated as such.

Verstappen, Ricciardo ordered to apologise at Red Bull factory

So what? They crashed. Any time you let people race this is a potential outcome.

I don't remember this kind of stink when Verstappen took out Vettel in China. That was probably just fine since it allowed the other Red Bull to win. Verstappen ran into just about everybody at some point last year, but only now it's a problem? The entire grid was questioning Verstappen's judgment in wheel to wheel (including Ricciardo after Hungary) , but they don't count? It's a problem only if it affects Red Bull. Sure, you can ruin Kimmi's race, and you can even spin Vettel around when he's in the lead. You can ram the points leader off the road with two races to go and we don't care as long as it's not Ricciardo. You can smash anyone, except, errrrr, Riccardo. Hey, I am not specifically ragging on Verstappen, but it's pretty clear Ricciardo has never had a problem with anyone else in spite of being the hardest racer on the grid. Danny screws up exactly one time and now he has to go to the factory and beg for forgiveness?

Being a Red Bull driver is it's own kind of pressure cooker, but once they get to F1 it's time to stop treating them like children. They both apologized to each other (right away, in fact) and to the team, so why not just let it go? They know what they did and they know they ****ed up. You don't treat grownups like this. You ask them if they knew what they did wrong and if they say yes you let it slide.

This is a lot different from the way Mercedes handled Hamilton and Rosberg. Every time they clashed they were quick to point the finger at each other, which doesn't exactly convey a sense of remorse. Toto promised "consequences" so many times the drivers knew they could do something as outrageous as running over Toto's dog with a dump truck and there would be no "consequence." That's why they both raced each other like a pair of rabid little ankle biting zombie Chihuahuas. They did it so many times you almost had to expect it coming. The difference here is that before this, Max and Dani have gotten into each other once, which Verstappen assumed full responsibility for. They both accept responsibility this time, so what's the point of humiliating them?

If I am running Red Bull I let it go the moment they both tell me they are sorry and it won't happen again. Dragging them to the factory for a groveling session isn't going to help their motivation. One more thing: why wasn't there this kind of handwringing when Vettel and Webber took each other out in Turkey?
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This is sad. Apologize to a factory? Am I missing something?

Shaming drivers like this is not good for driver or team morale. Red Bull is an all around pathetic organization.
 
Great race with a lot of unexpected results. Baku is quickly becoming my new favorite track. So many opportunities to pass and so little room for error. I think if Ferrari offers Ricciardo a seat for next year he'll take it in a heartbeat.
 
Greg said:
Riccardo should refuse and Red Bull is stupid for not recognizing Verstappen is the entire problem.
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Yep. You said it.

I guess they see Verstappen as their future going forward which makes sense. But that still doesn't mean you have to treat your other driver like a piñata.

Hell, Ricciardo has their sole and probably only win of the year.
 
I have not had a chance to see the whole race yet, but I did see the Red Bull accident. Verstappen was swerving around like a drunk and Ricciardo rammed him simply because he did not know where he was going to go next. I'm betting Danny was so focused on the constantly moving target that he simply missed his braking point. It doesn't matter where you put your car if the guy in front can just move over in front of you, then slam on the brakes. You can't defend yourself against something like that unless you simply roll over and never try to pass the guy.

Essentially the rules are so stacked against the overtaking driver that he doesn't stand chance. Anyone still wonder why we have so little overtaking in F1? Even if you can get close enough to get a tow and open the DRS, the guy in front can simply wait for you to make your move, then swerve over and make you back off or die. It's ridiculous. If you did that when I was racing you were going to end up in a fist fight. Yeah, we used to be men.

Swerving around is implicitly illegal under the written rules, but then they throw in the ridiculous "one move" rule that negates everything. They may as well have no rules at all, and no code of honor either. Oh, wait.......... They don't have a code of honor now, do they? Then again, there was not much honor in Prost and Senna deliberately wrecking each other to win championships and the FIA being ok with it. There wasn't any honor in giving Schumacher next to no penalty for trying to wreck Villeneuve in a self described "deliberate, but instinctual" move. The honor whimpered out a long time ago, and the FIA stood haplessly by and let it happen.

The FIA isn't even serious about the one move rule because Verstappen made two moves and they blamed both drivers. Verstappen caused the entire thing because he implicitly broke the rules with his illegal second move. Ricciardo can hardly be blamed for not knowing which way to go and was so stupefied that his own teammate would do something so dangerous he probably didn't know what to, and simply drove into the back of him. I mean, Max wouldn't swerve around in the braking zone, (which is also supposedly illegal), would he?

Too bad for Ricciardo, who always seems to race cleanly, but at least Verstappen deserved what he got.

OK, it was just the Red Bull team and nobody but them cares, but don't nod off to sleep think this kind of stupidity isn't going to eventually kill someone. It has in other series and I can post about a dozen examples. When it does happen everyone will cry a river of mock sorrow and wonder how we could let something like this happen. The answer is pretty easy. They won't listen now. When this does happen in F1, anyone who defends this kind of scumbaggery now will not have jack to say.
 
Reck said:
Yep. You said it.

I guess they see Verstappen as their future going forward which makes sense. But that still doesn't mean you have to treat your other driver like a piñata.

Hell, Ricciardo has their sole and probably only win of the year.
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They are signing on for a decade of idiocy. He is getting worse, not better.
 
Greg said:
They are signing on for a decade of idiocy. He is getting worse, not better.
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Yeah, you would think he would try to finish a race this year without running into people.

Hamilton called him a dickhead when they had their spat. I'm starting to think he's right. LOL
 
Max opened up his exit the first time they got together, and, IMO, ran into Ricciardo intentionally or at least tried to squeeze him into the wall.

The big incident, Max was weaving all over down the straight while defending, which typically isn't allowed - or at least, it wasn't. Seems like that kind of defending happens a lot now. Maybe a little ambitious by Daniel but you can't defend left, move right, and then move left again, and not expect anything to happen.

 
Kiante said:
They thought Kvyat was bad.

sh!t sure has changed.
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My ideal hypothetical - Ricciardo goes to Mercedes, Kvyat gets called up to replace a retiring Kimi next year, and they both run circles around Max and I guess Gasly.
 
Also, Max Verstappen and Marc Marquez have been turning really sour. I used to like both of them. Their actions as of late have really changed that a lot.
 
However, Sergio Perez claiming a podium for Force India and Charles Leclerc getting sixth for Sauber are the best things to come out of this race.
At least Kimi can say he has the joint-most podiums so far... but he really needs a win.
 
Going to be able to watch this zaniness soon. Have been too busy this weekend and had to record everything.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Seeing the two Renaults trash the two Red Bulls on the main straight is one of the best things I've seen in F1 recently.

:XXROFL:
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Yes, this is very odd and cool to see. It's nice that there is more variation this year with some teams being much better or worse week to week or on different circuits.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Maybe a little ambitious by Daniel but you can't defend left, move right, and then move left again, and not expect anything to happen.
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Maybe on the last lap of the race, but why would you ever do that to your own teammate?

When you have the kind of run on a guy on a perfectly straight, flat and wide piece of road, it's not ambitious to attempt a pass. That's actually how you are supposed to do it. That's why we have the bogus and phony DRS, to make passing easier on the straights.

The problem is, you can't race Max. He will block you on the straights and when he passes you he runs you wide and bangs your wheels. Remember Hungary last year? Remember Spa? Remember him punting Rosberg, the championship leader for crying out load, off the road at Mexico two years ago? Hell, remember even Baharain this year with Hamilton? It's almost a signature move.

Please name someone Max has raced wheel to wheel and never had contact with. I sure can't think of it.

In the first incident, Danny was on the other side of the curbs and almost into the wall. There was nowhere for him to go, so no one can say he didn't leave Max enough room. Remember, Danny is probably the cleanest racer in the field and he had two incidents with Verstappen in one race. It's not Danny who is crashing Hamilton, Vettel and himself....... it's Max Dickhead who is roughing all these guys up.

Think about it. Hamilton to the best of my memory has only run into Nico, but remember Nico started all of that. Vettel almost never has contact with anyone (except deliberately under yellow), and Ricciardo has probably never made an enemy in his entire career. Kimmi is usually pretty clean, even if he was a bonehead today with Esteban. Max Dickhead has run into all of them, and it's always been his fault.

I dunno. I don't want to be too hard on him, but there is a disturbing pattern here. Either Max can't race (and we know better than that), or he simply has no respect for anyone else on the track. He probably feels like he is the next big thing and he is entitled, so everyone had better get the hell out of his way. I don't want to believe Max is like this, but if he doesn't turn it around there can be no doubt. After all, how much benefit of the doubt can you give someone who keeps doing the same things over and over and over?
 
I've really enjoyed Verstappen's presence in the series. There have been races in which his aggression and lack of fvcks given have been a positive and shaken up the processional nature of the rest of the field. He is wildly talented. But there are limits. He's starting to resemble a battering ram.
 
Reck said:
Romain Grosjean is F1's version of NASCAR's Kasey Kahne.

What is going on in that head?
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Like I said on another forum, Romain Grosjean has the talent, but he is ultimately his own worst enemy.
 
After watching the whole race I have to say that's the sloppiest and dirtiest racing I have ever seen. The only person who had a clean race apparently was Botas.

I only saw the highlights before, but after seeing the way Verstappen drove the whole time, I would not be surprised if Danny simply rammed Max off the road out of exasperation. He was swerving on Danny, blocking him, squeezing him, or running him wide on almost every lap. Max dished out an entire career of dirty trucks in a single Grand Prix. I hope someone asks Jackie Stewart about this, and I damm sure want to hear what Jacques Villeneuve has to say.

I'm going to retract my previous post about Red Bull overreacting to Max and Danny's crash. They should be pissed, but only at Verstappen. He drove like the grim reaper and was even chopping up the Renaults.

Speaking of which, great to see them have a good run. We need them up in the front and fighting for wins. Sainz is the real deal. I don't know if Gulf crashed because of a puncture or if he just crashed, but prior to that he looked better than he has in his entire F1 career. I hope we see more of this from the Reggie.

I also wonder how the heck Leclec got up to sixth. How do you do that in a Sauber?

Big kudos to Alonso for, first, getting that car back to the pits, and secondly, driving it back up to seventh. He is driving better than ever. I hope McLaren's new car (debuts at Barcelona) gets him some wins and maybe he can challenge for the title next year.
 
OK, fun and games time. Rate the race. Here is your template:

Best Driver: 

Worst Driver: 

Best Team: 

Best Overtake: 

Best Moment: 

DRS + Tyres: 

And the race in a sentence:

I rated it:
 
Best Driver: Probably either Botas or Vettel because both had clean races and didn't get into any stupid scraps. Both would have won with just a tiny bit of luck. Vettel ruined his tires on the last restart, so I have to give it to Botas, and also award him the golden hose.

Worst Driver: Is there any doubt it's Max Dickhead?

Best Team: Probably Renault because they ran so surprisingly well.

Best Overtake: The Renaults on the Red Bulls. That was an exciting scrap.

Best Moment: Riccardo punting Max Dickhead down the escape road. It was sad for Riciardo, but there is always something special about that moment when someone who is being a dickhead gets what's coming to him.

DRS + Tyres: The difference between the tires was surprising and put the Renaults ahead of Red Bull on pace. The closing rates with DRS were simply frightening and it's only a matter of time before it causes a colossal accident, and I don't mean something as benign as the Red Bull accident. I mean colossal.

And the race in a sentence: Sloppiest example of driving I've ever seen in F1, but it's was entertaining if you like train wrecks. Even Kimmi caused a stupid accident and he usually stays out of those.

I rated it (1-10): Should have been a 1 or a 2 based off the level of contact and dirty tricks going on up and down the field, but I give it a 5 because I kind of like train wrecks.


 
gnomesayin said:
WTF.

And he thought he had been hit?
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It's always someone else's fault with the French.

I love it when Grosjean complains about other drivers causing accidents. It's like Al Capone complaining about senseless violence.

Someone out there must have a Hass team voodoo doll full of pinholes.
 
Magnussen "the most dangerous" driver I've raced - Gasly

The FIA deemed Magnussen's move "unpredictable and unnecessary" and handed him a 10-second penalty and two penalty points.
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Say what? Verstappen's double swerve on his own teammate was neither "unpredictable and unnecessary?" Am I the only one that sees blatant inconsistency here?


Was it "necessary" for Verstappen to make a second, illegal defensive move? Was it "predictable" he would do it to his own teammate? It's not "necessary to go that far off line. Not only that, but Verstappen did not leave the required "car's width" of space required by the rules, so he was unpredictable, made more than his one allowed move and stil didn't leave the required space. This doesn't deserve a penalty?

The whole point of swerving is to be so unpredictable the guy behind is deceived and doesn't know which way to go. We have the ridiculous DRS that gives the trailing car such an insurmountable advantage that the leading driver is a sitting duck and has to resort to breaking the other guy's momentum any way he can. The trailing car has to go because the cars race so badly the straight and DRS is the only way to get close enough. If you add together the disparity in speed, and all the deceptive moving around, on a straight piece of road, for crying out loud, it is a miracle we have not see a car go into the stands. Overtaking and defending is no longer a question of skill. Now it's a matter of high speed chicken. Think that's going to end well?

We have a combination of bad rules and inept enforcement. The swerving is going to get someone killed, and has in other formula. We have just been lucky is hasn't been in F1. The drivers are allowed to chop, block and swerve, and it's only when the stewards feel like it that the actual rules come into play. We need one solid, honest guy to tell the drivers what is and is not allowed, and then rule it with an iron fist. I'm not suggesting we don't let them race, but we don't have racing now anyway. All we have at this point is simply blocking and dirty tricks.

Back to "suck my balls" Magnussen, he has been making enemies up and down the field. Obviously he is pretty quick, apparently faster than even Grosjean, but his defending and running drivers wide overtaking has gotten out of hand, and I don't think penalty points are going to cut it. Last year Hulkenberg, who is a pretty fair guy, called Magnussen " the most unsporting driver," and as few incidents as Hulk has had you have to take that seriously.
 
I’m behind, I need to watch China and this past weekend’s race. I’m actually a huge F1 fan, wish I had time to watch races live or that week Instead of putting it off
 
Best Driver: Can I pick two drivers? Valtteri Bottas is my first choice, because he seemed to learn from his mistakes - namely, to not be as lenient as he was the last two races - and he was driving a faultless race. Valtteri would have been a deserving winner in my book. Charles Leclerc is the other driver that I choose, because a sixth place finish in a Sauber this season seemed, frankly, unattainable. He ran in the top ten throughout almost the entire race. Bravo to both of those guys on a race well driven.

Worst Driver: I can not see anyone saying someone other than Max Verstappen, but something has to be said for Romain Grosjean's awful, awful, AWFUL showing this weekend. His head was not in Baku. His mind was elsewhere. That is one of the most dispiriting weekends for a semi-top driver that I have seen in a while. He botched up qualifying, and made no amends whatsoever come race day. Steiner was evidently fit to be tied, even compared to Christian Horner.

Best Team: Renault. They were able to show that they have inched closer to "The Big Three." I can see Hulkenberg finally grabbing a podium before the season ends. Both Renault drivers have been doing really well thus far.

Best Overtake: The Renaults on the Red Bulls. I definitely second that @FLRacingFan.

Best Moment: Hamilton showed some uncharacteristic sportsmanship and empathy after his team-mate, Valtteri Bottas, was denied a certain victory after picking up an untimely puncture with three laps to go. He delayed running up to the top step of the podium for his fellow Mercedes driver.

DRS + Tyres: Did DRS have anything to do with Gasly and Hartley's near miss in qualifying? That could have been gnarly if not for some heads-up driving on Gasly's part. Scary. At any rate, this weekend made it clear that there is work to be done.

And the race in a sentence: Baku always shakes up the status quo, and I love it tremendously. For example, Sergio Perez had not even scored a point heading into the Azerbaijan Grand Prix. What happened? He became the first driver not driving for Ferrari, Mercedes, or Red Bull to stand on any of the three steps of the podium this season. Also worthy of note - Carlos Sainz, Jr. finished a season's best fifth, Leclerc came home sixth, Alonso continues his neat run to make it four point-scores in a row for McLaren, Lance Stroll got his and Williams's first points of the season, and Brendon Hartley finally got his first point! Sorry, I see I could not keep my summary within a sentence. :p

I rated it: 7. I can not lie, the train-wreck vibe that FLRacingFan got is what kind of made this race a joy to watch. That's also what made it stand out so well last year! Hopefully, the rumors surrounding Baku's "unwillingness" to stay on the F1 calendar are false, because this grand prix has been one of the most entertaining on the calendar.
 
Truex_rox said:
DRS + Tyres: Did DRS have anything to do with Gasly and Hartley's near miss in qualifying? That could have been gnarly if not for some heads-up driving on Gasly's part. Scary. At any rate, this weekend made it clear that there is work to be done.
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They said Hartley was having a tire going down.
 
Max has to mature. On the apology to the factory, remember in F1 the constructors championship is paramount over all else. Basically, the drivers F’d the team for their personal goals.
 
Thanks for playing "rate the race. Maybe we can do this every Grand Prix and it would be interesting to see what the other guys think.

Truex_rox said:
DRS + Tyres: Did DRS have anything to do with Gasly and Hartley's near miss in qualifying? That could have been gnarly if not for some heads-up driving on Gasly's part. Scary.
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That wasn't really a DRS issue. That last kink before braking for the left hander is a bit blind. Hartley had a problem and slowed drastically, and was trying to go to the outside and get out of the way, Gasly comes around the kink at full chat,, sees him crawling in the middle of the road, has no idea which way he is going and had to make a snap decision, which thankfully was correct. Yes, that was dangerous, but it was not in a DRS zone. Gasly has been pretty headups up all year and is going to be a star.

Where DRS came in handy (and dangerously) was in the colossal speed advantage the trailing cars had on that long straight. Gasly had a run on Magnussen, who thumped the crap out of him, and then still managed to almost pull alongside when he got squeezed off again. After that, he actually got a little ahead when they got to the corner. This was all on one pass down the straight, so you can see the DRS is way too effective, at least at this track. Check this in-car from Gasly and you can clearly see how effective the DRS was on that long straight.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-f1-gasly-magnussen-dangerous-azerbaijan.html

Hey, didn't Gasly have a hairy weekend? He drove impeccably and it was everyone else that was trying to kill him.

Here's the thing: When you have that kind of speed advantage you have to go, because it's nearly impossible to pass with these cars any other way. The way the rules are set up, the lead driver can swerve over to block and break your momentum. If you are Verstappen, you can swerve more than once, and apparently so can Magnussen. It's only a matter of time before they get it horribly wrong, and with Verstappen we were really lucky Riccardo hit him flush instead of running over a rear wheel, caught air and maybe goes into the stands. Even if not, it could have very easily been fatal to Danny.

So, you have desperate overtaking because the fastest part of the circuit is the only place it is possible, and then you have drivers doing desperate, unpredictable swerves when you are bearing down on them at a colossal closing rate. At of this was at about 220 mph at this track, and you can see it's a jolly good recipe for getting people killed.

Baku always shakes up the status quo, and I love it tremendously.
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Last year and this year have been twilight zone affairs and I have to admit it's been a lot of years since we have a race as strange as this year. About halfway through I knew this was going to be one of those special clusterfart kind of races, and I was trying to enjoy the carnage while hoping no one got hurt.

Hopefully, the rumors surrounding Baku's "unwillingness" to stay on the F1 calendar are false, because this grand prix has been one of the most entertaining on the calendar.
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Completely agree. This was a lot more interesting than the typical Grand Prix circuits. This could be a classic venue if we manage to keep it.
 
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