Gen 7 Cup Car

TexasRaceLady said:
For me, higher speed does not equal good racing. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between 170 mph and 200 mph.
How to slow the cars? That's a can of expensive worms to open.
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That can has been opened many times here, the term stock cars comes to mind, if you want to curb the speed and make for more interesting racing and cheaper racing the cars have to be more stock rather than high tech like indycar.
Spotter22 said:
They do that now
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They do?
StandOnIt said:
Composite body without the splitter for me. Sturdier car that can take more abuse and the drivers will lay on each other more.
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that's a good start
Acs said:
I'll go a little radical. GT4 cars, maybe GT3 spec if costs can be controlled. Much closer to showroom stock but still purpose built race cars. Add safety features specific to oval racing like roof flaps. Models I'd like to see compete: Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Dodge Charger, Toyota Supra/86, VW Arteon. Keep NASCAR-specific features like 5 lug nuts and floor jacks and prohibit telemetry in race.
Yes, keep the different body designs, different engine specs, chassis. IMSA proves they can be all balanced competitively through aero and weight changes. These cars would cost a LOT less, be substantially slower, create more drag, probably be less aero dependent, be easier to maintain, and best of all look bad ass.
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Yes....i love this, but Nascar will never do it.
ChexOrWrex said:
If NASCAR made rule changes on everything drivers bitched about the series would turn into nonsense.
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It hasn't turned into nonsense already?
 
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FLRacingFan said:
And then the problem of asymmetry towards the rear of the car needs to be addressed; you hear way too much about sideforce now and how tough it is to race side-by-side at high speeds.
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Agree. The lower downforce implemented over recent years is a crucial step, and the next big aerodynamic job is to get the side force off. The objective is to further slow cornering speeds, and to improve the ability for the cars to race side by side.

We have seen a very sizable increase in the speed delta between straightaway top speed and mid-corner speed, and lower side force will push that even further. That means more braking, more pedaling the throttle off corner... i.e. more of a contest of driving skill.

I'd also prefer removal of the tapered spacer and reduction of engine size to five liters (305 c.i.) but really, this is far lower in priority compared to slashing sideforce, IMO.
 
Zerkfitting said:
The bodies have to be universal so no one has an aero advantage. But I'd like to see the suspension come into play and gear choices to give the teams some latitude.
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Why...it was so cool when one make had an aero advantage over another, having these cars be the same has ruined the sport. Being different, brings about innovation and identity.
 
Zerkfitting said:
The bodies have to be universal so no one has an aero advantage. But I'd like to see the suspension come into play and gear choices to give the teams some latitude.
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They don't have to be. If you reduce speeds then aero grip (downforce) becomes less important overall, making any advantage null.
 
Mopardh9 said:
Why...it was so cool when one make had an aero advantage over another, having these cars be the same has ruined the sport. Being different, brings about innovation and identity.
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Agree, love to see the manufacturers bodies represented more realistic to the actual configuration. If the make is slow, they will develop an alternative. Dodge Daytona with the Hemi came out and nothing could touch it in most large track races. Ultimately banned by NASCAR. But, it forced innovations on the part of Ford/Mercury to keep pace.

Dittos also to composite strong bodies, junk the splitter allowing for more rubbin and bangin. Make sure the draft means something instead of creating dirty air behind cars. As to horsepower, I prefer reductions that strike a good balance, with no restrictor plates, yet allowing power when needed for passing.
 
Acs said:
They don't have to be. If you reduce speeds then aero grip (downforce) becomes less important overall, making any advantage null.
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Not necessarily, when going 150 aero comes into play, but giving these cars an identity with different bodies whould go a long way.
Conover said:
Agree, love to see the manufacturers bodies represented more realistic to the actual configuration. If the make is slow, they will develop an alternative. Dodge Daytona with the Hemi came out and nothing could touch it in most large track races. Ultimately banned by NASCAR. But, it forced innovations on the part of Ford/Mercury to keep pace.
Dittos also to composite strong bodies, junk the splitter allowing for more rubbin and bangin. Make sure the draft means something instead of creating dirty air behind cars. As to horsepower, I prefer reductions that strike a good balance, with no restrictor plates, yet allowing power when needed for passing.
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I've been saying for years 800hp isn't needed, 450-550 hp, different bodies for each make, get them off the ground, and softer tires would help a lot.
 
MRM said:
The problem is most everything on the cars are spec parts, everything from rear gears to shocks. Hard to do much passing when everybody is basically running the same stuff.
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Jimmie Johnson has said the same. Something to the effect of “when the top 10 cars are all running 1/10th off of each other, not much action is happening”
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Jimmie Johnson has said the same. Something to the effect of “when the top 10 cars are all running 1/10th off of each other, not much action is happening”
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No, thats far from the truth. You have different gear ratios, different shocks, different springs different sway bars, different truck arms, different upper and lower control arms, different spindles. I could go on but you get the picture. Jimmie obviously was taken out of context. I'm sure he just meant the closeness of the competition because he knows its not "spec" anything.
 
Spotter22 said:
No, thats far from the truth. You have different gear ratios, different shocks, different springs different sway bars, different truck arms, different upper and lower control arms, different spindles. I could go on but you get the picture. Jimmie obviously was taken out of context. I'm sure he just meant the closeness of the competition because he knows its not "spec" anything.
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You believe you. I believe the 7 time Champion.
 
You cannot slow the cars down. That would make cheating so much more impactful as engineers would be able to easily cheat the rules with modern tech
 
ChexOrWrex said:
You believe you. I believe the 7 time Champion.
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lol. I love it. He never, never said all the parts on the car are spec and thats why we are running within a 10th. Go down with that ship brother. You think SHR doesnt build their own stuff? You think Hendrick buys his stuff from Pep Boys? Roush gets his stuff from Gibbs? Unreal
 
Back to production bodies would help the fan aspect in addition to the racing. You could use the slight body mods to equalize the downforce between models. If you want to slow them down, toss the restrictor plates, and go with a smaller displacement engine. A well balanced engine with smaller pistons, beats a larger engine that can't breath. This is how I see it. Few will agree with me about smaller engines, and even less will, concerning the bodies. That's OK, we are just throwing stuff at the wall to see if anything, no matter how unlikely, will stick.
 
Suppose production bodies were to be used and one manufacturer made a more aerodynamic body than the others and started winning most of the races. The other manufacturers would have to decide if they wanted join the aero war or leave NASCAR. If an aero war started, the car bodies would probably look pretty odd because a body designed for 200 mph would require a specific shape - way different from what is needed to sell street cars. The last stock body panel on a NASCAR was the roof and that went away decades ago.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Suppose production bodies were to be used and one manufacturer made a more aerodynamic body than the others and started winning most of the races. The other manufacturers would have to decide if they wanted join the aero war or leave NASCAR. If an aero war started, the car bodies would probably look pretty odd because a body designed for 200 mph would require a specific shape - way different from what is needed to sell street cars. The last stock body panel on a NASCAR was the roof and that went away decades ago.
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oh man, they did that years ago, and to an extent they are still doing it, but the box to do it in has been pretty much closed because of those past experiences that started in the 60's
 
TexasRaceLady said:
For me, higher speed does not equal good racing. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between 170 mph and 200 mph.
How to slow the cars? That's a can of expensive worms to open.
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MAKE THEM HARDER TO DRIVE it is very simple. No driver is going into a corner at 200 mph if he knows he will only hit the wall. They drive fast because the cars let them.
I loved Nascar 25 yrs ago and 600 HP was all they had.
 
Team Penske said:
MAKE THEM HARDER TO DRIVE it is very simple. No driver is going into a corner at 200 mph if he knows he will only hit the wall. They drive fast because the cars let them.
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Nonsense. You hear it all the time from drivers. Everytime they throw it deep they pray it sticks. One wobble or miscalculation & they shoot straight for the wall
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Key word: average.
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Your assertion is they are going faster down the straights/slower in the corner with less HP? I disagree. The aerodynamic crap sticks the car too good in the corners. I would prefer LESS aero and more mechanical grip. Because mechanical grip changes as tires wear. Aero only changes due to body damage.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Nonsense. You hear it all the time from drivers. Everytime they throw it deep they pray it sticks. One wobble or miscalculation & they shoot straight for the wall
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So how come cars don't crash in every turn? Because the cars have the grip and the downforce
to prevent it. Take away grip and downforce and those drivers will slow down on their own OR watch the race from the garage.
 
Team Penske said:
So how come cars don't crash in every turn? Because the cars have the grip and the downforce
to prevent it. Take away grip and downforce and those drivers will slow down on their own OR watch the race from the garage.
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Just need less downforce/side force. That would slow corner speed. Which makes them slower on the straights.
 
Zerkfitting said:
Suppose production bodies were to be used and one manufacturer made a more aerodynamic body than the others and started winning most of the races. The other manufacturers would have to decide if they wanted join the aero war or leave NASCAR. If an aero war started, the car bodies would probably look pretty odd because a body designed for 200 mph would require a specific shape - way different from what is needed to sell street cars. The last stock body panel on a NASCAR was the roof and that went away decades ago.
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You don't get what I'm saying. So all those other sanctioning bodies are worthless because they use stock bodies? IMSA GT cars, or V8 supercars aren't fast, and safe enough? Why do the cars have to do 200 MPH? I'll bet you couldn't tell 200 MPH from 170 MPH without a clock. They are going to have to slow them down again anyway. It's part of the cycle. Ten years ago Global Rallycross didn't even exist. But they have grown to what they are today, because the cars start as Stock bodies, and they look like something their fans drive. They have attracted young, new fans, exactly what NASCAR says they want. You can make small adjustments to equalize the aero between makes, just like they always have. With today's technology they could go back to stock, and they would be nothing like the stock cars of old. They could make this happen. Don't worry about more fans leaving, if they haven't left before now, they aren't going to.
 
Yogisd1 said:
You don't get what I'm saying. So all those other sanctioning bodies are worthless because they use stock bodies? IMSA GT cars, or V8 supercars aren't fast, and safe enough? Why do the cars have to do 200 MPH? I'll bet you couldn't tell 200 MPH from 170 MPH without a clock. They are going to have to slow them down again anyway. It's part of the cycle. Ten years ago Global Rallycross didn't even exist. But they have grown to what they are today, because the cars start as Stock bodies, and they look like something their fans drive. They have attracted young, new fans, exactly what NASCAR says they want. You can make small adjustments to equalize the aero between makes, just like they always have. With today's technology they could go back to stock, and they would be nothing like the stock cars of old. They could make this happen. Don't worry about more fans leaving, if they haven't left before now, they aren't going to.
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They could make it happen, but that would make too much sense to get fans back by identifying with the makes again instead of doing it with decals.
 
Yogisd1 said:
You don't get what I'm saying. So all those other sanctioning bodies are worthless because they use stock bodies? IMSA GT cars, or V8 supercars aren't fast, and safe enough? Why do the cars have to do 200 MPH? I'll bet you couldn't tell 200 MPH from 170 MPH without a clock. They are going to have to slow them down again anyway. It's part of the cycle. Ten years ago Global Rallycross didn't even exist. But they have grown to what they are today, because the cars start as Stock bodies, and they look like something their fans drive. They have attracted young, new fans, exactly what NASCAR says they want. You can make small adjustments to equalize the aero between makes, just like they always have. With today's technology they could go back to stock, and they would be nothing like the stock cars of old. They could make this happen. Don't worry about more fans leaving, if they haven't left before now, they aren't going to.
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You cannot slow the cars down that much. I’m sorry but for the #2 Motorsport league in the world, you have to have that premium speed for the best. I’ll never forget last year Bubba Wallace saying after the Michigan truck race win that he forgot how much slower they are than a Cup car. Part of what makes the big series so great is that they’re doing 200+ into corners, that’s an extremely difficult thing to do.

IMO we need to figure out how to create a draft so that the leading car doesn’t have that massive of an advantage because of clean air. These cars are almost too aerodynamically pure
 
Mispeedway15 said:
You cannot slow the cars down that much. I’m sorry but for the #2 Motorsport league in the world, you have to have that premium speed for the best. I’ll never forget last year Bubba Wallace saying after the Michigan truck race win that he forgot how much slower they are than a Cup car. Part of what makes the big series so great is that they’re doing 200+ into corners, that’s an extremely difficult thing to do.

IMO we need to figure out how to create a draft so that the leading car doesn’t have that massive of an advantage because of clean air. These cars are almost too aerodynamically pure
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I'd rather see them go the speeds the trucks go without using plates. The trucks put on the best racing of all 3 series .
 
Mopardh9 said:
I'd rather see them go the speeds the trucks go without using plates. The trucks put on the best racing of all 3 series .
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But you’d water down the skill level needed to drive at this level. Just like with Eldora, there’s a reason only the top teams/drivers win there in dirt racing. Because of the low margin for error due to the incredible speeds that can be ran there
 
Mispeedway15 said:
But you’d water down the skill level needed to drive at this level. Just like with Eldora, there’s a reason only the top teams/drivers win there in dirt racing. Because of the low margin for error due to the incredible speeds that can be ran there
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Why would you water it down? Just because you would be going 185 instead of 210 does not diminish the skills level. So by what you are saying driving on a short track such as Martinsville requires less skill?
 
The trick is to keep a car stabile at high speed and minimize the air disturbance behind the car. I don't know it is possible with the box shape of a passenger car. That is the challenge. I'm amazed that they do run at 200 mph and have some control in a pack.
 
Make the centre of the nose 2+ inches higher than the sides so it can't be sealed to the ground and dirty air becomes less of a problem. Get rid of skew. Fine tune it from there

Or just model the style after the Pintys series cars. They're great racing
 
Mispeedway15 said:
Part of what makes the big series so great is that they’re doing 200+ into corners, that’s an extremely difficult thing to do.
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Then why isn't Indy more popular?
20 yrs ago cars didn't have that ability and yet the sport was more popular and with only 650 HP.
 
Team Penske said:
Then why isn't Indy more popular?
20 yrs ago cars didn't have that ability and yet the sport was more popular and with only 650 HP.
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Because Indy is different. I’m saying NASCAR cannot go backwards speed wise, you can’t just unlearn engineering tech
 
Here's what the always astute Steve O'Donnell said regarding the development of the Gen 7 last year:

“Marrying up the OEMs, the race teams and that new generation of drivers and making sure that whatever we put on the track puts us in the best position to succeed. That’s from an economic standpoint and technology and what’s some cool stuff we can put in the car, and what do these young drivers get enthusiastic about and feel good about what they’re racing.

That’s the biggest focus now is bringing all those parties together to talk about Gen 7 and where we want to go collectively as an industry. Maybe not so much how much are we spending on spindles, but what is the coolest technology we can put in that car to showcase to the fans is the avenue we want to go down."
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I don't really know what that means, regarding cool technology they can (pretend to be) putting in the car. The philosophy seems to be what can they do to attract younger fans, which is a business necessity for them.

The just announced Mustang entering Australia's V8 Supercars in 2019 sure looks cool:

v8supercars-ford-mustang-livery-2018-ford-mustang-livery-8143732.jpg


That series has some pretty complex regulations that are intended to achieve aero parity using bodies that look much closer to production models, but I am going to guess that quest is actually more difficult on high speed ovals than on road courses. However, if they could get closer to something in that vein cosmetically, it sure might attract some eyeballs that are bored by the Gen 6. The Gen 6 has been improved during its lifetime, but sleek and sexy are not exactly the words that come to mind.
 
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