Gen6. Some more thoughts?

dpkimmel2001 said:
You are having some memory issues or you weren't around for the pre-COT era of racing if you don't remember the aero issues. It was a big deal then too. Oh, and he wasn't fast enough when it counts. Matt wins. Enjoy. ;)
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Err, I guess you've been napping while I complained about hard tires and EXAGGERATED aero during the CoT era, and read the same exact comments about how it's just racing. :rolleyes:

Note: EXAGGERATED used to avoid the same old tired comments that aero has always been part of racing.

This is real simple to figure out. Even nascar knows they have a problem when comparing the new car to the one they defended for 6 years warrants a fine.:p I guess ALL the drivers complaining about aero push and difficulty in passing for 6 years just don't understand racing.
 
Bobw said:
Thank Nascar for listening to whiney cry baby Jack Rousch for instilling parity between the makes. Enter common templates and look alike cars. Gen 6 might look more likje the street version but still fit common templates. That is what is destroying Nascar, might as well go to a 36 race schedule with IROC cars.
CC finds something in the gray area and aformentioned whiner complains and Nascar deems it illegal.
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I remember watching Nascar in the late 90s early 2000s when the aero wars was going on. Nascar kept saying to get the cars equal so that the drivers would have the biggest role in determining the races. Now everyone is the "next Jeff Gordon", now we hace equal cars, equal tires, and equal drivers. So now Nascar starts promoting Nascar as a team sport. Why? Because, without a great team or great pit stops good luck getting to the front. Good luck driving throught the field. Sure most of these guys can drive from 32 to 10-15, but without a great pit stop or pit strategy a driver cant vrack the top 5 on his own it seems now a days. i am all for Nascar being a team sport, but with equal cars, drivers, tires, and now pit crew why cant they give the teams a little more leeway on adjusting the cars. Lets bring setups back into play.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
I remember watching Nascar in the late 90s early 2000s when the aero wars was going on. Nascar kept saying to get the cars equal so that the drivers would have the biggest role in determining the races. Now everyone is the "next Jeff Gordon", now we hace equal cars, equal tires, and equal drivers. So now Nascar starts promoting Nascar as a team sport. Why? Because, without a great team or great pit stops good luck getting to the front. Good luck driving throught the field. Sure most of these guys can drive from 32 to 10-15, but without a great pit stop or pit strategy a driver cant vrack the top 5 on his own it seems now a days. i am all for Nascar being a team sport, but with equal cars, drivers, tires, and now pit crew why cant they give the teams a little more leeway on adjusting the cars. Lets bring setups back into play.
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Good points. I would suggest that the ONLY thing that will shake things up is tires that wear so strategy can shake things up. IMO, a driver should gain a minimum 3/10ths with new tires on a 1.5. That speed difference is what it will take to overcome the EXAGGERATED aero push.
 
Before the start of the season, I was optimistic about the new car. Since then, I have learned the new car has basically the same chassis as the COT minus 150 lbs. and a few modifications. It's almost the same car but with a different body. That's tempered my enthusiasm a bit. Still, I'm willing to give it some time.
 
The aero issue wasn't as critical pre COT car. Remember the "slingshot"? Can't do that with todays cars. A minor dent in a fender today takes a top 5 car back to mid pack, or worse.
 
Jeffrey00 said:
I remember watching Nascar in the late 90s early 2000s when the aero wars was going on. Nascar kept saying to get the cars equal so that the drivers would have the biggest role in determining the races. Now everyone is the "next Jeff Gordon", now we hace equal cars, equal tires, and equal drivers. So now Nascar starts promoting Nascar as a team sport. Why? Because, without a great team or great pit stops good luck getting to the front. Good luck driving throught the field. Sure most of these guys can drive from 32 to 10-15, but without a great pit stop or pit strategy a driver cant vrack the top 5 on his own it seems now a days. i am all for Nascar being a team sport, but with equal cars, drivers, tires, and now pit crew why cant they give the teams a little more leeway on adjusting the cars. Lets bring setups back into play.
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It appears the only advantage one can gain is clean air. I think maybe if they could have a tire that actually wears and if NASCAR mandates that the cars have to run with the grille and air ducts open it may help with aeropush. You're absolutely right, the car is in such a tight box there's not a whole lot of room for CC's to work with.
 
FenderBumper said:
Err, I guess you've been napping while I complained about hard tires and EXAGGERATED aero during the CoT era, and read the same exact comments about how it's just racing. :rolleyes:

This is real simple to figure out. Even nascar knows they have a problem when comparing the new car to the one they defended for 6 years warrants a fine.:p I guess ALL the drivers complaining about aero push and difficulty in passing for 6 years just don't understand racing.
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Believe me, I've heard your complaints about the tires. As far as the rest goes, you read an awful lot into my post.
 
We have the same chassis built to Nascar specs, skinned with a body that produces as humanly possible equal amounts of drag and downforce among the manufacturers, powered by motors producing nearly the same hp, again as humanly possible. Using mandated springs and shocks at Daytona and Dega and closely monitored at other tracks. Rolling on the same tire be it hard or soft. Most races run on cookie cutter tracks. CC gets inventive and gets fined.
Might as well set up a craps table at the start/finish and let the drivers roll for who wins.
 
FenderBumper said:
First off, I'm not emotionally invested in this new car because I think in a year or 2 well be right back to where we were with the CoT.......UNLESS Goodyear brings a larger, softer tire. Can they do that with this car? Pemberton said Goodyear is deciding if they should. Maybe the ability to use a larger tire is the big, big secret for this new car?

IMO, when you build a heavy car for safety (kudos to nascar) and then go the aero route, these sized tires can't hold up unless they are very hard. Go back to the start of the CoT era and we had tires tearing apart. Too heavy, too fast for the size tires. The ONLY thing that is going to seperate these aero dependant cars enough for passing is tire wear. There is no way in hell Kenseth wins that race on old tires in last CoT, because aero push is worse than ever. There's no way the #2 car hangs on for 3rd either. Some people have a hard time grasping the difference between 'it's racing, it should be hard to pass' and the fastest car on the track being frustrated by aero push.

It's STILL position racing, and that wont change with this car. We'll see some seperation while some teams find stuff, but it will still be stay out on old tires and keep that aero advantage. nascar needs to get off the aero addiction and let these cars slow down a little and race on tires that wear.
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MRM said:
Before the start of the season, I was optimistic about the new car. Since then, I have learned the new car has basically the same chassis as the COT minus 150 lbs. and a few modifications. It's almost the same car but with a different body. That's tempered my enthusiasm a bit. Still, I'm willing to give it some time.
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Bobw said:
The aero issue wasn't as critical pre COT car. Remember the "slingshot"? Can't do that with todays cars. A minor dent in a fender today takes a top 5 car back to mid pack, or worse.
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Thegroundpounder99 said:
It appears the only advantage one can gain is clean air. I think maybe if they could have a tire that actually wears and if NASCAR mandates that the cars have to run with the grille and air ducts open it may help with aeropush. You're absolutely right, the car is in such a tight box there's not a whole lot of room for CC's to work with.
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Bobw said:
We have the same chassis built to Nascar specs, skinned with a body that produces as humanly possible equal amounts of drag and downforce among the manufacturers, powered by motors producing nearly the same hp, again as humanly possible. Using mandated springs and shocks at Daytona and Dega and closely monitored at other tracks. Rolling on the same tire be it hard or soft. Most races run on cookie cutter tracks. CC gets inventive and gets fined.
Might as well set up a craps table at the start/finish and let the drivers roll for who wins.
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That about wraps it up. :beerbang:
 
I sure miss the pre-CoT days when you would see an 8th place car peel off into the pits with 20 to go and grab four tires because it would actually mean something. Watching that guy go from the tail end of the LL cars to race for the win was damn exciting.
 
FenderBumper said:
Good points. I would suggest that the ONLY thing that will shake things up is tires that wear so strategy can shake things up. IMO, a driver should gain a minimum 3/10ths with new tires on a 1.5. That speed difference is what it will take to overcome the EXAGGERATED aero push.
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Come on FB, you forgot taking the rear window out, off your meds today? do I gotta remind you of everything? :D
 
Bobw said:
We have the same chassis built to Nascar specs, skinned with a body that produces as humanly possible equal amounts of drag and downforce among the manufacturers, powered by motors producing nearly the same hp, again as humanly possible. Using mandated springs and shocks at Daytona and Dega and closely monitored at other tracks. Rolling on the same tire be it hard or soft. Most races run on cookie cutter tracks. CC gets inventive and gets fined.
Might as well set up a craps table at the start/finish and let the drivers roll for who wins.
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And don't forget they all run the same rear end gear I think?
 
FenderBumper said:
I wasn't talking to YOU. I accepted your reptilian cranial limitations a long time ago. :p
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And my dont give a crap attitude about the technicalities and nitpicking, just bring on the BLs and the racing, that fits into my reptilian cranial cavity just fine thank you. :D
 
When the COT was introduced it was supposed to reduce aero push. If aero push wasn't a problem before GEN 5, why would NASCAR make that statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_of_Tomorrow

Wider, taller tires (IMO) will not change aero push. Aero push became more noticable as the speeds of the cars increased.If you want to ged rid of aero go back to racing at 140 MPH.
 
Jeff Gordon and Matt Kenseth were pointedly critical of the car's poor performance in traffic, with Gordon stating after the 2007 New England 300, "I'd like to know who it was who said this car would reduce the aero push because I could have told you from when I first drove this car that it would be worse."[18] Kyle Busch, who won the very first race with the car at Bristol in 2007, proclaimed that the car "sucks" afterward and expanded on this criticism at Dover in 2008 in noting how the CoT was "hitting a wall of air" in the wake of a leading car, thus neutralizing ability to close up on leaders.[19]

From the Wiki link. Nascar has done nothing to fix this situation 6 years later.
 
From what I heard on the radios and from what I saw on the track, the guy out front had no real clean-air advantage to speak of, which was demonstrated by many lead changes. Kasey had no problem passing cars all day long, he just couldn't pass Matt Kenseth.
 
Johali said:
And my dont give a crap attitude about the technicalities and nitpicking, just bring on the BLs and the racing, that fits into my reptilian cranial cavity just fine thank you. :D
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Are you mad???:D

Smoke14 said:
When the COT was introduced it was supposed to reduce aero push. If aero push wasn't a problem before GEN 5, why would NASCAR make that statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_of_Tomorrow

Wider, taller tires (IMO) will not change aero push. Aero push became more noticable as the speeds of the cars increased.If you want to ged rid of aero go back to racing at 140 MPH.
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Hmmm, why would nascar say something like that. Hmmmm.......

Go back and watch some postrace comments from when the CoT began racing with the splitter. Aero-push enters the conversation in a big way. Then again, many around here know racing better than the drivers, so why bother?
 
Bobw said:
Jeff Gordon and Matt Kenseth were pointedly critical of the car's poor performance in traffic, with Gordon stating after the 2007 New England 300, "I'd like to know who it was who said this car would reduce the aero push because I could have told you from when I first drove this car that it would be worse."[18] Kyle Busch, who won the very first race with the car at Bristol in 2007, proclaimed that the car "sucks" afterward and expanded on this criticism at Dover in 2008 in noting how the CoT was "hitting a wall of air" in the wake of a leading car, thus neutralizing ability to close up on leaders.[19]

From the Wiki link. Nascar has done nothing to fix this situation 6 years later.
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It's hopeless, Bobw. Some simply listen to nascar hype and that becomes reality. :rolleyes:
 
BobbyFord said:
From what I heard on the radios and from what I saw on the track, the guy out front had no real clean-air advantage to speak of, which was demonstrated by many lead changes. Kasey had no problem passing cars all day long, he just couldn't pass Matt Kenseth.
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Drivers said a lot of things after Phoenix about aero advantage, poor handling in traffic, great in clean air, etc. After Denny's fine, not so much.

Kasey said Matt did a good job cutting across his lane and making him loose and tight. It was amazing to see how far back he would drop after Matt takes the air away.

To fans with their heads in the sand, it looked like good racing. When you consider that a much faster car on newer tires couldn't pass.....well, just read my sig.
 
I watched a completely different race on Sunday . I saw three and four wide racing . Hundreds of passes , for the lead and otherwise . I saw the 5 and 18 ,in particular, pass whoever they wanted ,whenever they wanted . I saw a heck of a race for the finish , where the best driver held off the second best driver in a dogfight. I saw pit crews that were able to make improvements to their cars gain spots and pit crews who couldn't , lose spots. I didn't see many empty seats , I didn't see heavier cars racing lighter cars , I didn't see any 'push to pass' , I didn't hear Kasey whining at the end about the cars or his crew or the tires or the air , I just saw good racin.
 
The "fix" has to be done with the car, not the tires. Goodyear isn't going to soften the compound and risk blistering, heavy wear etc. Bad enough that the beads melt. I had said before I thought I had heard of going to a 16 or 18 inch but the brake people would just stuff bigger rotors and calipers in there and we'd have the same problem.
 
Caseys interview after the race: He said they changed the rights, and the lefts gave up and he couldn't hold it down low to get a run on him. He also said the track heated up, rubbered in, and got greasy. There isn't any way a rounded off brick going 180MPH is not going to disturb the air it passes thru period..forever...physical law. Seems like most of the younger crowd on this board, wants the race to be like their playstation. Some should have paid attention in Physics. More Aero downforce, carbon fiber on trunk and hood and less overall car weight accomplishes the same purpose as a wider tire. All the Gen 6 car is doing, is looking prettier, more like a street car, safer when it gets turned around at speed to keep it out of the stands and driver safety with more protection added. They lowered the center of gravity with carbon fiber trunk and hood..less weight..guess what.. lower weight, lower center of gravity is all about handling..kinda the same as a wider tire?? more downforce...oh no not again...better handling at speed with the same tread width. So what you have is basically the same thing as keeping the old car and adding a wider tire..get it? probably not. So what we saw was a faster race on the same track. The increased passing is in part a product of faster teams getting better as the race went on and moving to the front. Guess what. It is going to be worse when they go to narrower 1.5 mile tracks with only one fast grove, all you are going to hear is Aero push. That is Nascar racing on 1.5 or larger tracks. Passing in pit row, fuel strategy, tires, setup and adjustments. It isn't as simple as playstation..hit the wall and you are usually thru, so stay in line, stay out of trouble, hit your pit, and try to get up front in the cleaner air..Get it?
 
StandOnIt said:
Caseys interview after the race: He said they changed the rights, and the lefts gave up and he couldn't hold it down low to get a run on him. He also said the track heated up, rubbered in, and got greasy. There isn't any way a rounded off brick going 180MPH is not going to disturb the air it passes thru period..forever...physical law. Seems like most of the younger crowd on this board, wants the race to be like their playstation. Some should have paid attention in Physics. More Aero downforce, carbon fiber on trunk and hood and less overall car weight accomplishes the same purpose as a wider tire. [this is where I stopped reading] All the Gen 6 car is doing, is looking prettier, more like a street car, safer when it gets turned around at speed to keep it out of the stands and driver safety with more protection added. They lowered the center of gravity with carbon fiber trunk and hood..less weight..guess what.. lower weight, lower center of gravity is all about handling..kinda the same as a wider tire?? more downforce...oh no not again...better handling at speed with the same tread width. So what you have is basically the same thing as keeping the old car and adding a wider tire..get it? probably not. So what we saw was a faster race on the same track. The increased passing is in part a product of faster teams getting better as the race went on and moving to the front. Guess what. It is going to be worse when they go to narrower 1.5 mile tracks with only one fast grove, all you are going to hear is Aero push. That is Nascar racing on 1.5 or larger tracks. Passing in pit row, fuel strategy, tires, setup and adjustments. It isn't as simple as playstation..hit the wall and you are usually thru, so stay in line, stay out of trouble, hit your pit, and try to get up front in the cleaner air..Get it?
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Again, lets have a very basic aero dependency lesson. The larger spoiler messes up the air to the following car more than the smaller spoiler does, correct? Do wider tires mess up the air more too?

Simple questions require simple answers.
 
There is just a whole lot of people on here that don't understand racing, and don't know the history of racing. Look at formula 1..they have so much downforce, the car can run upside down, tires twice as wide as nascar, telemetry out the wazoo. May be two passes for the lead a race. Car out front in clean air has a huge advantage..these are little bity cars half the weight as a nascar. They have recently..because of no passing made huge changes. They have a device that stores energy and a flap on the wing that opens and closes. The cars behind the leader can use this advantage to try to catch and pass the leader..doesn't work that great. Indy cars have "push to pass" this gives the button pusher more RPM to help in passing, doesn't work that great either, you only get so many button pushes and it doesn't work anymore. If you want a lot of passes, go fire up your playstation,
 
StandOnIt said:
All the Gen 6 car is doing, is looking prettier, more like a street car, safer when it gets turned around at speed to keep it out of the stands and driver safety with more protection added...
...It is going to be worse when they go to narrower 1.5 mile tracks with only one fast grove, all you are going to hear is Aero push.
...Get it?
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I agree 100%. If you listen to DW and others talk about the new car, they always talk about the increased downforce. What happens when that "clean air" is no longer available?

Bobw said:
The aero issue wasn't as critical pre COT car. Remember the "slingshot"? Can't do that with todays cars. A minor dent in a fender today takes a top 5 car back to mid pack, or worse.
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During the Twisted Sister era, the fenders were so fragile that any contact could/would cause huge problems. And teams were exagerating the size and shape of the right front fender in order to create more downforce.
At least with the newest cars (COT & Gen6) the cars can make slight to moderate contact with each other - or the wall - and keep on running.
They are much tougher. And that's a good thing, I think.

In my opinion, NASCAR needs to do away with the splitter and the front suspension (bump stops) and allow the teams to select their own spring and shock ratios.
Eliminating or lessening the gear ratio restrictions would also do a great deal towards returning the racing to something more than a clean air parade.
 
robbybee said:
....... a clean air parade.
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I commented during the race thread when the was four wide racing and another time when Kyle dove onto the apron to pass two cars for the lead. " people won't remember this stuff on Monday ".
 
Aerodynamics will always be an issue at the speeds NASCAR runs. There was a time when the second place car had the advantage. I thought the wing they had performed better that the spoiler but there was a lot of whining about it.

BTW it is always harder to past the leader because the leader probably has a good car too and he can take what ever line he wants.
 
doesn't make a bit of difference if you think gear ratio is going to make "real" racing, the faster they go the more AERO is important..Car in front would have even more of an avantage
 
In my opinion, NASCAR needs to do away with the splitter and the front suspension (bump stops) and allow the teams to select their own spring and shock ratios.
Eliminating or lessening the gear ratio restrictions would also do a great deal towards returning the racing to something more than a clean air parade.
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I agree, give the teams a chance to vary the setup which can reflect different driving styles. .
 
xlarge_isaac_daytona_top.jpg



You see this,,late 60's before most of you were born..super fast car. No mods, took it off the trailer and ran it 216.
Guess what, bigger tires, big wing, vents over the front tires. Why did nascar outlaw it? It was legal for the rules at the time. Has all the stuff you guys are talking about. Why don't they all look like that today? They were too fast. Today with smaller engines, smaller tires, you take the plate off and they will be faster than this missile on a plate track. You can't build a fence high enough. if one of them catches the wind just right it will fly. Haven't even mentioned AERO advantage, but pull up an old Daytona race on you tube..it was worse than we have today.
 
Doesn't matter what they do with the suspension, they get to do pretty much what they want on road courses suspension wise. Don't you pay attention? they show the closeups on the splitter..teams that can get it to seal to the track are the fastest, bump stops make it easy to so so. They did the same thing with the older suspension, but the springs had to be super soft, and the shocks super hard. Now they can vary the height and the ride quality with the shocks. About all the springs do is after the race, they push up to get the car into minimum height to pass inspection
 
ted@economy said:
I commented during the race thread when the was four wide racing and another time when Kyle dove onto the apron to pass two cars for the lead. " people won't remember this stuff on Monday ".
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The 4 wide racing?Let me guess was it on a restart?Or how many of the 4 were backmarkers riding around logging laps?and how many times was this 4 wide racing comment made? 1?
 
i151461.jpg


Ever wonder why Richard Petty won so many races..this is part of it. even though Ford came out with a Torino Talladega street model where they flushed the grill and also flushed the back window for more AERO, it wasn't much of a match on a faster track, NASCAR had to do something, it was pretty lopsided, and manufacturers, Ford and Chevy were not going to go into the racing body business as far as Mopar. I can only imagine if thy had the web and this board back then. :)
 
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