IS IT THE DRIVER OR CAR??

jaqua19 said:
I'd say it's 75% Car, 25% driver now.
When I started watching, it was 50-50. What makes a driver great, in my opinion, are a combination of these four things, in order from least to most significance

-Mentality (it IS a sport after all)

-Feedback

-Versatility (changing driving style, corner entry, angle, corner exit, lifting zones based on what car is doing and how it is handling)

-Ability to maximize speed in corners, which draws from versatility, to enhance this raw ability. This is what makes Jimmie Johnson a more talented driver than Kyle Busch, and anyone else in cup (most talented ever? ). Jimmie can, and has won more races with 4th, 5th, and 6th place cars in clutch time by being that good, and better than anyone else in those last two categories. Cant remember his last dominant race, save Charlotte last chase, and he still has won more than anyone the last two years. He's still the best in the business. Interesting that you became a fan towards the end of his career.



Keselowski had a Truex like performance tgis race, lead over 300 laps. Jimmie ran 3-6 all race. Beat Brad, period
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Of course, this isn't what makes a race team successful, just how I assess the sole category of "driver" at the cup level
 
Team Penske said:
Yes and Zippy was gone also who I blame for the lack of success for Joey. As soon as Joey dropped to the xfinity cars with a different CC he was out running Kyle and Denny in those cars.
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Zippy did have any success without Tony. You could be exactly right.
 
Ford 222 said:
Truex proves it. He didn't just get really good in 3 years. The car has with their relationship to Gibbs and the team is making Martin look like a hero.
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Yea, but my issue with this is that the cars never seemed to be THAT much of a saving grace. The teams were closer together.
 
Ford 222 said:
Truex proves it. He didn't just get really good in 3 years. The car has with their relationship to Gibbs and the team is making Martin look like a hero.
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Yes however that team was getting really good Martin's second year and that was before Toyota.
 
Acs said:
Kevin Harvick: Complete bottom-feeder (aka he runs the low line around the track almost exclusively). Very good at saving tires on a long run. If he's out front he's almost uncatchable. Has a tendency to choke away wins though.
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But....he's The Closer???
 
Ford 222 said:
Right, team made the biggest jump in performance, not MTJ.
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Yes but we have to admit that the combination Martin/Cole have taken over the 1.5 milers like Jimmy/Knaus used to. Running for a championship makes this a must as long as those tracks are the chase.
 
The driver gives information about how the car is running to the crew chief who determines how to adjust the car for the driver. Truex and his team have been running up front for the last couple years. The driver is a critical part of the communication process plus the driver has to be good enough to drive up front.
 
Team Penske said:
Yes but we have to admit that the combination Martin/Cole have taken over the 1.5 milers like Jimmy/Knaus used to. Running for a championship makes this a must as long as those tracks are the chase.
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Sure, because the car allows him to. When he is driving an average car, he runs average...
 
Ford 222 said:
They are all capable of driving up front if the car is right....
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The car isn't right until the driver and crew chief figure out how get it right. The car is probably more significant on an oval but it takes the driver to help get the car right before the race starts.
 
Ford 222 said:
I don't follow?
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I mean, that an average to above average driver never benefited from equipment THIS much, because the cars used to be closer together in speed. A driver of his calibur could benefit from having the "fastest car", but would only run 5-7th because more talented drivers with cars not QUITE as fast were simply just better. Now, the car can totally outweigh talent. There always seemed to be just a bit of a limit to how much a driver could benefit from a car before the gen 6
 
Ford 222 said:
Sure, because the car allows him to. When he is driving an average car, he runs average...
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But that is true in every case. That's why we call them a team. Some drivers think if they do well it is because of them. If something goes wrong it is the teams fault. :p
 
Team Penske said:
But that is true in every case. That's why we call them a team. Some drivers think if they do well it is because of them. If something goes wrong it is the teams fault. :p
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There are definitely 6-10 drivers who can run 10th with a 15th place car, I'd say.

I know it's a team, but some drivers can out perform their car's relative speed to the field. Such an opportunity to do so, isn't as common in the gen 6.
 
Ya know it is possible for a team owner like Visser to continue to get better as a team and a driver to continue to get more confidence and skills. It didn't just suddenly happen, it has taken years and stacks of dollar bills
 
jaqua19 said:
I mean, that an average to above average driver never benefited from equipment THIS much, because the cars used to be closer together in speed. A driver of his calibur could benefit from having the "fastest car", but would only run 5-7th because more talented drivers with cars not QUITE as fast were simply just better. Now, the car can totally outweigh talent. There always seemed to be just a bit of a limit to how much a driver could benefit from a car before the gen 6
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I don't agree a 100% with that statement. Not all drivers are capable of doing more with a car not quite right to their liking. A good example is JJ runs up front and wins the race. Jeff Gordon admits he can't drive JJ's car. The car is capable but the driver is not. Seldom does the fastest car win the race simple because there are to many variables that determine the final outcome.
A simple thing as a GWC can cause the best car to lose the race.
 
Zerkfitting said:
The car isn't right until the driver and crew chief figure out how get it right. The car is probably more significant on an oval but it takes the driver to help get the car right before the race starts.
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Um not necessarily. A good CC and engineers can get the car right based on what the driver tells them. Not many drivers make calls on how to fix car anymore. I put team in car category.
 
Ford 222 said:
Um not necessarily. A good CC and engineers can get the car right based on what the driver tells them. Not many drivers make calls on how to fix car anymore. I put team in car category.
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I heard that last race. Kyle and Kurt like to call the adjustments on their cars. Kyle Larson said he tells them what the car is doing and then drives what they give him. All drivers will do that soon.
 
Team Penske said:
I don't agree a 100% with that statement. Not all drivers are capable of doing more with a car not quite right to their liking. A good example is JJ runs up front and wins the race. Jeff Gordon admits he can't drive JJ's car. The car is capable but the driver is not. Seldom does the fastest car win the race simple because there are to many variables that determine the final outcome.
A simple thing as a GWC can cause the best car to lose the race.
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II don't think ALL drivers are capable of doing more with a car that isn't to their liking. Most can't, I agree. But some can, and these are the best drivers in the sport.for example,

My point, is driver A could have the fastest car, driving perfectly to his liking, he can do what he wants with it.

Driver B could have the 3rd "fastest" car driving perfectly to his liking, he can do what he wants with it. Yet, he can outrun driver A on 40 lap run because he is just better. Or, out race him for 5 laps. He may not NEED as good of a car as a less talented driver to dominate because he is better.

This doesn't seem to be the case as much now. I just think it reveals too much of a downforce dependency in these cars.

My fustration is that Truex's cars are SOO good, that a better driver with the 2nd or 3rd fastest car can't outrun a slightly above average driver because that driver's cars are SO much faster, every week.

I've never seen that before, not like this, so I attribute that to the gen 6, and it's reliance on downforce.
 
Some CCs can't help the car, case in point Saturday at the first caution Kahne told Rodden car is good getting in , tight center off, Rodden one round of wedge in the right rear. Next caution, how's your car , you hurt the entry and center off is the same, ok we will undo the changes.
 
CalTenn said:
Some CCs can't help the car, case in point Saturday at the first caution Kahne told Rodden car is good getting in , tight center off, Rodden one round of wedge in the right rear. Next caution, how's your car , you hurt the entry and center off is the same, ok we will undo the changes.
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I don't think the driver (Kahne) knows what he wants. Watch Kahne start out at the mid to front and when he comes in to pit 9 times out of ten he gets worse. Also Kahne never misses a chance to pit, he will pit every time when others stay out. Rusty Wallace did the same thing at the end of his career, he would screw up a good setup every time. They want to car to be so comfortable(slow) they adjust it out of being competitive.
 
I bet MTJs car felt comfortable. I was sitting coming out of turn four and Kasey was driving it he and Blaney were sideways more than anyone else. Point I'm making is a good car is easy to drive, poor handling car is not.
 
Point I made is Blaney who is brand new and Kasey who has been around for ages, missed the setup
 
Ford 222 said:
Truex proves it. He didn't just get really good in 3 years. The car has with their relationship to Gibbs and the team is making Martin look like a hero.
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Ford 222 said:
They are all capable of driving up front if the car is right....
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I disagree with this, and with the others who say the car is the key to success in Nascar Cup racing. Obviously, no driver can run up front consistently in a bad car. You need a good chassis, good motor, and good body with good aero traits. And you need a good team with adequate funding and resources. But there are many in Cup who clear this bar.

Having a good car and a good, well funded team merely gets you in the game... and then the driver makes the difference. There are at least 19 great cars on the grid, but not 19 drivers capable of contending on a weekly basis for wins and top 5's. Hendrick has 4. Ganassi has 2. Gibbs has 6 including the Furniture Row affiliates. Stewart-Haas has 4. Penske/Wood Brothers has 3. That makes 19 without counting Roush or Childress. If you put Jimmie Johnson in *any* of those 19, you'd win races and championships.

Jimmie Johnson wins races and championships; Kasey Kahne and Dale Jr. do not. Kasey and Dale have the same hardware, and they have all the engineering and all the set-up data, but Jimmie gets most of the trophies. Kevin Harvick wins a lot more than Kurt Busch, Clint Bowyer, and Danica Patrick, who have the same equipment and resources and data.

In 2015, Martin Truex comprehensively out performed all of the Childress drivers. In 2016 and 2017, he's done the same versus Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards. Same hardware from the same fabrication shop. Same engineering and set up data. Those Gibbs drivers ain't exactly chopped liver. Those who think Cole Pearn builds autonomous self-driving cars don't know much about how difficult *racing* is at the Cup level. Practice speeds and qualifying speeds aren't racing, but they are hard enough. Racing against others is way harder than simply having speed. Winners win, and losers talk about "He had the best car."

In major league racing, the two series where the driver makes the biggest difference are MotoGP and Nascar, and nothing else is close to those two. The relative performance of teammates who have the same of everything proves that.
 
jaqua19 said:
This doesn't seem to be the case as much now. I just think it reveals too much of a downforce dependency in these cars.

My fustration is that Truex's cars are SOO good, that a better driver with the 2nd or 3rd fastest car can't outrun a slightly above average driver because that driver's cars are SO much faster, every week.

I've never seen that before, not like this, so I attribute that to the gen 6, and it's reliance on downforce.
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You are overlooking the fact that the current Cup cars have *less* downforce than previous cup cars have had for *at least* a quarter of a century. So I think you need a new theory to explain stuff, because aerodynamic downforce is not the reason.
 
I get your point, xplain why the last 10
races last yea thE 5 te
LewTheShoe said:
I disagree with this, and with the others who say the car is the key to success in Nascar Cup racing. Obviously, no driver can run up front consistently in a bad car. You need a good chassis, good motor, and good body with good aero traits. And you need a good team with adequate funding and resources. But there are many in Cup who clear this bar.

Having a good car and a good, well funded team merely gets you in the game... and then the driver makes the difference. There are at least 19 great cars on the grid, but not 19 drivers capable of contending on a weekly basis for wins and top 5's. Hendrick has 4. Ganassi has 2. Gibbs has 6 including the Furniture Row affiliates. Stewart-Haas has 4. Penske/Wood Brothers has 3. That makes 19 without counting Roush or Childress. If you put Jimmie Johnson in *any* of those 19, you'd win races and championships.

Jimmie Johnson wins races and championships; Kasey Kahne and Dale Jr. do not. Kasey and Dale have the same hardware, and they have all the engineering and all the set-up data, but Jimmie gets most of the trophies. Kevin Harvick wins a lot more than Kurt Busch, Clint Bowyer, and Danica Patrick, who have the same equipment and resources and data.

In 2015, Martin Truex comprehensively out performed all of the Childress drivers. In 2016 and 2017, he's done the same versus Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards. Same hardware from the same fabrication shop. Same engineering and set up data. Those Gibbs drivers ain't exactly chopped liver. Those who think Cole Pearn builds autonomous self-driving cars don't know much about how difficult *racing* is at the Cup level. Practice speeds and qualifying speeds aren't racing, but they are hard enough. Racing against others is way harder than simply having speed. Winners win, and losers talk about "He had the best car."

In major league racing, the two series where the driver makes the biggest difference are MotoGP and Nascar, and nothing else is close to those two. The relative performance of teammates who have the same of everything proves that.
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Not that I disagree with a lot of what you said, when Ray Evernham left Jeff Gordon his career took a steady downward turn, as long as Gordon was driving cars built by Evernham he ran better. Gordon was an elite driver, but these cars are so close that when a team finds 2 tenths, like Truex has on the mile and a half it makes a huge difference. I think there are probably 12 drivers that could have won Saturday in the 78 car.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I disagree with this, and with the others who say the car is the key to success in Nascar Cup racing. Obviously, no driver can run up front consistently in a bad car. You need a good chassis, good motor, and good body with good aero traits. And you need a good team with adequate funding and resources. But there are many in Cup who clear this bar.

Having a good car and a good, well funded team merely gets you in the game... and then the driver makes the difference. There are at least 19 great cars on the grid, but not 19 drivers capable of contending on a weekly basis for wins and top 5's. Hendrick has 4. Ganassi has 2. Gibbs has 6 including the Furniture Row affiliates. Stewart-Haas has 4. Penske/Wood Brothers has 3. That makes 19 without counting Roush or Childress. If you put Jimmie Johnson in *any* of those 19, you'd win races and championships.

Jimmie Johnson wins races and championships; Kasey Kahne and Dale Jr. do not. Kasey and Dale have the same hardware, and they have all the engineering and all the set-up data, but Jimmie gets most of the trophies. Kevin Harvick wins a lot more than Kurt Busch, Clint Bowyer, and Danica Patrick, who have the same equipment and resources and data.

In 2015, Martin Truex comprehensively out performed all of the Childress drivers. In 2016 and 2017, he's done the same versus Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, Denny Hamlin, and Carl Edwards. Same hardware from the same fabrication shop. Same engineering and set up data. Those Gibbs drivers ain't exactly chopped liver. Those who think Cole Pearn builds autonomous self-driving cars don't know much about how difficult *racing* is at the Cup level. Practice speeds and qualifying speeds aren't racing, but they are hard enough. Racing against others is way harder than simply having speed. Winners win, and losers talk about "He had the best car."

In major league racing, the two series where the driver makes the biggest difference are MotoGP and Nascar, and nothing else is close to those two. The relative performance of teammates who have the same of everything proves that.
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Spot on!
 
LewTheShoe said:
You are overlooking the fact that the current Cup cars have *less* downforce than previous cup cars have had for *at least* a quarter of a century. So I think you need a new theory to explain stuff, because aerodynamic downforce is not the reason.
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Dont need one. My point is its more about the car than its been. Truex is good, not THAT good
 
I have read comments about JJ liking a lose car because it is fast. Jeff Gordon didn't like a lose car and so he ran second to JJ. Larson likes a lose car and they found away to give him that and now he is running up front like JJ was. Jones fits that bill as well and we will see if Gibbs can provide it. Cole Pern has found away to make the 78 fast for MTJ on the 1.5 milers just as did Knaus for JJ. As they take away the down force those that can drive lose will rise to the top and those that can only drive fast will fade to short track drivers.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't think the driver (Kahne) knows what he wants. Watch Kahne start out at the mid to front and when he comes in to pit 9 times out of ten he gets worse. Also Kahne never misses a chance to pit, he will pit every time when others stay out. Rusty Wallace did the same thing at the end of his career, he would screw up a good setup every time. They want to car to be so comfortable(slow) they adjust it out of being competitive.
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True except I have one beef. Rodden hasn't unloaded a fast car off the truck more than a handful of times. Otherwise your post is what I've seen.

Wanna help me find a new driver? :)
 
I remember when Kahne came in to Nascar off of the dirt. Could have changed the number to the 42 and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, he ran up high and he was fast and a contender. Personality was different too. I don't know when was the last time I have seen him belly laugh. He is painful to watch and a terrible interview. Sorry current fans but I used to be a Kahne fan myself. He drove a Dodge.
 
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