Is the Bristol Night Race the 4th Jewel?

Charlie Spencer said:
I dunno. I keep hearing how generations younger than mine want their sports entertainment delivered in shorter packages. Those two-hour races may be one reason why F1 is increasing in popularity in the US. (It's also doing so without a 'decent U.S. effort'.) If there's increased interest in sports car racing, I don't see how the extended endurance races fit what the young'uns want.
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Most of the IMSA races are 2-2.5 hours long. The kids will watch that.

The endurance races are a different thing to try to push, and the networks know it. As of right now, the 24 Hours of Daytona only has three hours of television coverage this year with the rest on Peacock. The 24 Hours of Le Mans doesn't have anything resembling mainstream coverage in the United States. It's shown on some really obscure channel. What's it called now? Velocity? MotorTrend? WB Discovery doesn't even offer the 24 Hours of Le Mans on their primary streaming service.

I think the biggest advantage F1 has over NASCAR, IndyCar and IMSA right now is true commercial-free coverage. I don't think people realize how big of a factor that is. Auto racing is the only sport where you miss the action, and a lot of it with NASCAR, because of commercial breaks.

Commercials in NASCAR races really mess up the flow. When you have three commercial breaks within 10-12 minutes, as Fox likes to do with the Daytona 500, it becomes infuriating because you're missing so much and it legitimately becomes hard to keep up with. Remember the TNT "While We Were Away" Summer Series? I vividly remember Jeff Gluck watching one of those Summer Series broadcasts and tweeting about how NASCAR on TNT was unwatchable because of the amount of commercials.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The TV ratings for the Brickyard 400 say the fans consider it a crown jewel.
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I disagree. NASCAR and stock car racing have less than 30 years of history at Indy. People are interested in watching the race there because of the historic nature of the track itself but it just doesn't have enough history with NASCAR to qualify as a Crown Jewel. Even a decade into the event, NASCAR media was still leaning heavily on IndyCar history to give the event some heft. I remember after Jimmie won the Brickyard 400 in the mid-00s, Bill Weber wouldn't stop talking about Rick Mears. Indy is a historic race track but you'll never convince me that a Brickyard 400 win even remotely compares to the Indy 500.

If you need another discipline's history to boost your event then it's not a Crown Jewel. It would be like college football considering the Fenway Bowl to be a major bowl game, just because of its history in baseball. If IndyCar ran at Darlington, would you consider it one of the biggest races of the IndyCar schedule? I think it'd be like NASCAR at Indy, it's a curiosity and somewhat of a novelty but it would pale in comparison to tracks where the series has an established history.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
I think the biggest advantage F1 has over NASCAR, IndyCar and IMSA right now is true commercial-free coverage.
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So who foots the bill? As I recall, whichever network doesn't provide any talent or resources, on or off screen. It just carries someone else's coverage. That's cheap enough for the US carrier but someone's paying for it.

TANSTAAFL!
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The TV ratings for the Brickyard 400 say the fans consider it a crown jewel.
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Would those be the same casual viewers that watch only the well-publicized events the networks tell them to watch, but never look at those sports otherwise? The ones that watch only the SuperBowl, Kentucky Derby, I500, and the Masters? That only look at gymnastics or snowboarding every four years?

Are they watching BECAUSE it's a crown jewel, or are you saying just having a large audience is what makes it one? I'm not ready to build a list of jewels based solely on ratings. If so, Darlington is probably doomed.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I disagree. NASCAR and stock car racing have less than 30 years of history at Indy. People are interested in watching the race there because of the historic nature of the track itself but it just doesn't have enough history with NASCAR to qualify as a Crown Jewel. Even a decade into the event, NASCAR media was still leaning heavily on IndyCar history to give the event some heft. I remember after Jimmie won the Brickyard 400 in the mid-00s, Bill Weber wouldn't stop talking about Rick Mears. Indy is a historic race track but you'll never convince me that a Brickyard 400 win even remotely compares to the Indy 500.

If you need another discipline's history to boost your event then it's not a Crown Jewel. It would be like college football considering the Fenway Bowl to be a major bowl game, just because of its history in baseball. If IndyCar ran at Darlington, would you consider it one of the biggest races of the IndyCar schedule? I think it'd be like NASCAR at Indy, it's a curiosity and somewhat of a novelty but it would pale in comparison to tracks where the series has an established history.
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Exactly
 
Charlie Spencer said:
So who foots the bill? As I recall, whichever network doesn't provide any talent or resources, on or off screen. It just carries someone else's coverage. That's cheap enough for the US carrier but someone's paying for it.

TANSTAAFL!
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NASCAR produces the Craftsman Truck Series and ARCA Menards Series broadcasts. We're getting commercial overload to pay for a terrible VR studio.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I disagree. NASCAR and stock car racing have less than 30 years of history at Indy. People are interested in watching the race there because of the historic nature of the track itself but it just doesn't have enough history with NASCAR to qualify as a Crown Jewel. Even a decade into the event, NASCAR media was still leaning heavily on IndyCar history to give the event some heft. I remember after Jimmie won the Brickyard 400 in the mid-00s, Bill Weber wouldn't stop talking about Rick Mears. Indy is a historic race track but you'll never convince me that a Brickyard 400 win even remotely compares to the Indy 500.

If you need another discipline's history to boost your event then it's not a Crown Jewel. It would be like college football considering the Fenway Bowl to be a major bowl game, just because of its history in baseball. If IndyCar ran at Darlington, would you consider it one of the biggest races of the IndyCar schedule? I think it'd be like NASCAR at Indy, it's a curiosity and somewhat of a novelty but it would pale in comparison to tracks where the series has an established history.
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Indianapolis is Indianapolis, regardless of the discipline.

Drag racing got its start in Southern California, and drag racing's East Coast roots are in Southern Maryland. Yet Indianapolis is the biggest race of the year in NHRA.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
NASCAR produces the Craftsman Truck Series and ARCA Menards Series broadcasts. We're getting commercial overload to pay for a terrible VR studio.
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To add to this @Charlie Spencer, NASCAR on The CW will be a NASCAR production top-to-bottom. I expect NASCAR to have more control of the Cup productions as well. I don't think TNT is going to spend millions of dollars in production for five races... and Amazon already outsources its sports productions. Thursday Night Football on Prime Video is NBC Sports.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
To add to this @Charlie Spencer, NASCAR on The CW will be a NASCAR production top-to-bottom. I expect NASCAR to have more control of the Cup productions as well. I don't think TNT is going to spend millions of dollars in production for five races... and Amazon already outsources its sports productions. Thursday Night Football on Prime Video is NBC Sports.
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My question was, who pays to produce F1? By extension, how can they do it without ads? I acknowledge NASCAR may not be able to do the same.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
My question was, who pays to produce F1? By extension, how can they do it without ads? I acknowledge NASCAR may not be able to do the same.
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ESPN's coverage is Sky Sports.

European sports coverage isn't commercialized like American coverage. We pay more money, A LOT more, to watch sports and get bombarded with commercials.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Indianapolis is Indianapolis, regardless of the discipline.

Drag racing got its start in Southern California, and drag racing's East Coast roots are in Southern Maryland. Yet Indianapolis is the biggest race of the year in NHRA.
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The NHRA Nationals have been in Indy since 1961, a decade after the NHRA’s founding. NASCAR had 45 years of history before the first car took the green flag at Indy. This is apples to oranges. NASCAR already had an established lore with decades of history at other tracks and its own storied races.

Indy is an important race but it isn’t a Crown Jewel. Most of Indy’s lore comes from non-stock car racing events, which disqualifies it from being a Crown Jewel of America’s premiere stock car racing series.

Indy doesn’t even make the top 5 of important tracks in NASCAR history. Daytona, Talladega, Bristol, Martinsville, and Darlington are more important off the top of my head. The Brickyard 400’s prestige is carried by its adjacency to the Indy 500.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The NHRA Nationals have been in Indy since 1961, a decade after the NHRA’s founding. NASCAR had 45 years of history before the first car took the green flag at Indy. This is apples to oranges. NASCAR already had an established lore with decades of history at other tracks and its own storied races.

Indy is an important race but it isn’t a Crown Jewel. Most of Indy’s lore comes from non-stock car racing events, which disqualifies it from being a Crown Jewel of America’s premiere stock car racing series.

Indy doesn’t even make the top 5 of important tracks in NASCAR history. Daytona, Talladega, Bristol, Martinsville, and Darlington are more important off the top of my head. The Brickyard 400’s prestige is carried by its adjacency to the Indy 500.
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One of the crown jewel races in Late Model Stock Car racing didn't start until the late-2000s and another one of the crown jewels relies on the history of another track/race.

How long NASCAR's been at Indy is irrelevant. The Brickyard 400 firmly established itself as a crown jewel. Just like NASCAR got rid of the Southern 500 and had to bring it back, NASCAR ended up having to bring the Brickyard 400 back. It's one of the most prestigious and important races of the year to the racers, to the fans, and to the networks. New traditions can be established.

NASCAR and the networks have tried to make both Talladega and the Bristol Night Race a crown jewel race. The networks even tried putting the Bristol Night Race on network television (ABC, and NBC after that). I'm all for Bristol as a crown jewel, but NASCAR tried it.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
One of the crown jewel races in Late Model Stock Car racing didn't start until the late-2000s and another one of the crown jewels relies on the history of another track/race.

How long NASCAR's been at Indy is irrelevant. The Brickyard 400 firmly established itself as a crown jewel. Just like NASCAR got rid of the Southern 500 and had to bring it back, NASCAR ended up having to bring the Brickyard 400 back. It's one of the most prestigious and important races of the year to the racers, to the fans, and to the networks. New traditions can be established.

NASCAR and the networks have tried to make both Talladega and the Bristol Night Race a crown jewel race. The networks even tried putting the Bristol Night Race on network television (ABC, and NBC after that). I'm all for Bristol as a crown jewel, but NASCAR tried it.
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I respectfully disagree. The Brickyard 400 still leans heavily on the overall lore of Indianapolis Motor Speedway. As a race itself, most Brickyard 400s have been thoroughly mediocre. Any driver who wins the Brickyard 400 leans on the history of the Indy 500 to explain why the victory is important. It's an important race because of its connection to Indy but it isn't a Crown Jewel. To be a Crown Jewel, you have to be an established event that has contributed to the growth of the sport. "New traditions" by definition don't qualify for that. A Crown Jewel has to stand on its own and the Brickyard 400 just doesn't do that.

You can start "new traditions" but don't expect them to carry equal weight to the decades long traditions that precede them.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
That's completely irrelevant.
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It's a <30 year old race that has produced few memorable moments and whose prestige is derived entirely from races that happened in entirely different cars.

Indy is important but it's not a Crown Jewel for NASCAR. I don't discount that winning there is important for drivers, the Indy 500 is one of the biggest motorsports events in the world and standing in the same victory lane as some of the best wheelmen of all time is a tremendous honor, but it's not a Crown Jewel for NASCAR. The Brickyard 400's prestige is derived entirely from IndyCar.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I respectfully disagree. The Brickyard 400 still leans heavily on the overall lore of Indianapolis Motor Speedway. As a race itself, most Brickyard 400s have been thoroughly mediocre. Any driver who wins the Brickyard 400 leans on the history of the Indy 500 to explain why the victory is important. It's an important race because of its connection to Indy but it isn't a Crown Jewel. To be a Crown Jewel, you have to be an established event that has contributed to the growth of the sport. "New traditions" by definition don't qualify for that. A Crown Jewel has to stand on its own and the Brickyard 400 just doesn't do that.

You can start "new traditions" but don't expect them to carry equal weight to the decades long traditions that precede them.
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The Brickyard 400 absolutely helped carry the sport to new heights in the 90’s and early 2000’s and pretty much solidified Cup racing as a national sport. The fact they were racing at Indy meant they had made it, as to that point there was nothing at the Speedway besides the Indy 500, and to this day most of those crowds before the ‘08 tire debacle are still the biggest in series history.
 
Okay, it's the off season, I'll go there...

Coke 600, Brickyard 400, Southern 500, and Bristol Night. Just opening the season with a big purse doesn't keep the Daytona 500 a crown jewel in 2024. As has been demonstrated multiple times in the pack racing era, anybody with enough luck can win it. As much as I dislike the Indy oval, you don't see a laundry list of second stringers kissing the bricks.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The Brickyard 400 absolutely helped carry the sport to new heights in the 90’s and early 2000’s and pretty much solidified Cup racing as a national sport. The fact they were racing at Indy meant they had made it, as to that point there was nothing at the Speedway besides the Indy 500, and to this day most of those crowds before the ‘08 tire debacle are still the biggest in series history.
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A race that leans on the Indy 500 for its prestige cannot be a Crown Jewel of NASCAR. A Crown Jewel has to stand on its own and the Brickyard 400 simply can't do that. I'm not disputing that it's important and I agree that NASCAR racing at Indy was a turning point in the sport's perception, but I just don't see Indy as a Crown Jewel because it doesn't have the depth of history with stock car racing as other tracks. Stock cars at Indy did a lot to help the sport's image but I don't think it quite reaches that level. Until drivers can win a Brickyard 400 without gushing over the Indy 500, I don't think it will.

Charlie Spencer said:
Okay, it's the off season, I'll go there...

Coke 600, Brickyard 400, Southern 500, and Bristol Night. Just opening the season with a big purse doesn't keep the Daytona 500 a crown jewel in 2024. As has been demonstrated multiple times in the pack racing era, anybody with enough luck can win it. That doesn't sound like a jewel anymore.
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I disagree with this even more strongly than the Brickyard 400 being a Crown Jewel. The Daytona 500 is one of the 4 more prestigious races in the entire world. The lore around Daytona as a world center of stock car racing, from guys breaking speed records on the beach to the beach course to the Speedway, keeps it firmly entrenched as a Crown Jewel.

We don't decide Crown Jewels by the "here and now." It takes time.
 
There is 4 crown jewel races to me: Daytona 500, Coca-Cola (World) 600, Brickyard 400, & Southern 500.

I think you could argue the Bristol Night Race as a 5th major (like The Players Championship in golf) or No Bull 5 type race.

Honorable Mentions (but no cigar): Firecracker (Coke Zero/Pepsi) 400 Night Race @ Daytona, Talladega 500 Spring, Talladega 500 Fall.
 
The Nature Boy said:
The Daytona 500 is one of the 4 more prestigious races in the entire world.
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I agree it WAS. If all that's keeping it on the list is tradition and not the racing of the last decade, it's time to reconsider. See also Monaco, but I'm noted for not having much respect for tradition.
 
Thinking about it further - I would say that we only have three Crown Jewels: The Daytona 500, Coca Cola 600, and Southern 500.

I would consider the Bristol night race and the Martinsville races to be Crown Jewel adjacent. And then the next tier would be races like Indy and the Talladega races, they're important but not as historically significant as the three Crown Jewels.

Charlie Spencer said:
I agree it WAS. If all that's keeping it on the list is tradition and not the racing of the last decade, it's time to reconsider. See also Monaco, but I'm noted for not having much respect for tradition.
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I have a lot of respect for tradition so I think we're going to differ on this one.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
One of the crown jewel races in Late Model Stock Car racing didn't start until the late-2000s and another one of the crown jewels relies on the history of another track/race.
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What races are you talking about? ValleyStar Credit Union 300 @ Martinsville Speedway & South Carolina 400 @ Florence Motor Speedway?
 
racingfan7 said:
What races are you talking about? The ValleyStar Credit Union 300 @ Martinsville Speedway & South Carolina 400 @ Florence Motor Speedway?
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Hampton Heat 200 at Langley and the South Carolina 400 at Florence.

The South Carolina 400's prestige relies solely on the history of Myrtle Beach Speedway.

The ValleyStar's been around for decades.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I agree it WAS. If all that's keeping it on the list is tradition and not the racing of the last decade, it's time to reconsider. See also Monaco, but I'm noted for not having much respect for tradition.
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The Daytona 500 is still prestigious, in spite of the fluke wins the past three years.

IMO, the biggest problem with the Daytona 500 right now is it's being carried by a network that literally does not give a **** about the race. Fox cares a lot more about the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum experiment.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Hampton Heat 200 at Langley and the South Carolina 400 at Florence.

The South Carolina 400's prestige relies solely on the history of Myrtle Beach Speedway.

The ValleyStar's been around for decades.
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I think Super LM has a lot of “Crown Jewels” right now:

Tier 1
Snowball Derby
Tier 2
All-American 400 @ Nashville Fairgrounds
Winchester 400
South Carolina 400 @ Florence
ValleyStar Credit Union 300 @ Martinsville
Oxford 250
Slinger Nationals
Tier 3
Battle at Berlin 250
All-Star Showdown 200 @ Irwindale
Tier 4
Red Bud 400
Montana 200 @ Mission Valley Super Oval
Vermont Governor’s Cup 150 @ Thunder Road
 
racingfan7 said:
I think Super LM has a lot of “Crown Jewels” right now:

Tier 1
Snowball Derby
Tier 2
All-American 400
Winchester 400
South Carolina 400 @ Florence
ValleyStar Credit Union 300 @ Martinsville
Oxford 250
Slinger Nationals
Tier 3
Battle at Berlin 250
All-Star Showdown 200 @ Irwindale
Tier 4
Red Bud 400
Montana 200 @ Mission Valley Super Oval
Vermont Governor’s Cup 150 @ Thunder Road
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ValleyStar 300 and South Carolina 400 aren't Super Late Models. Late Model Stocks, different cars even if they look the same.

Late Model Stocks are almost exclusive to the Carolinas, Virginia and Kingsport, Tennessee. There are only three Super Late Model races in the Carolinas next year as of right now; PASS @ Hickory, ASA/SSS @ Hickory and SRL @ Jacksonville.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
ValleyStar 300 and South Carolina 400 aren't Super Late Models. Late Model Stocks, different cars even if they look the same.

Late Model Stocks are almost exclusive to the Carolinas, Virginia and Kingsport, Tennessee. There are only three Super Late Model races in the Carolinas next year as of right now; PASS @ Hickory, ASA @ Hickory and SRL @ Jacksonville.
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Same difference to average fans of late models. Pretty sure the NE has different cars as well. That in of itself is the problem is the difference in late model rules & lack of a nationally unified sanctioning body right now. Late model racing is a national motorsport and that’s why I chose it as such.
 
racingfan7 said:
Same difference to average fans of late models. That in of itself is the problem is the difference in late model rules right now.
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The cars don't even sound the same.

I'd love to see the southeast transition to Super Late Models, but it's just never worked here. It's Late Model Stock Car country.

Diaz tried it a few times at Southern National. PASS tried it and abandoned the region. CARS Tour tried it and abandoned it. Southern Super Series has tried to get a footprint in this region.

We took the SRL date because Super Late Models have not raced in Eastern North Carolina since before the pandemic and it's going to draw fans to the track.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The cars don't even sound the same.

I'd love to see the southeast transition to Super Late Models, but it's just never worked here. It's Late Model Stock Car country.

Diaz tried it a few times at Southern National. PASS tried it and abandoned the region. CARS Tour tried it and abandoned it. Southern Super Series has tried to get a footprint in this region.

We took the SRL date because Super Late Models have not raced in Eastern North Carolina since before the pandemic and it's going to draw fans to the track.
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Ok. You completely missed the point, at the end of the day to the sponsors, fans, TV audience watching, they’re all late models. That’s why I ranked them in Tiers as late model racing. lol
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, and F1and Indy cars are the same thing too, right?

:blink:
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Completely apples to oranges to comparison but you always like arguing on here so. To the average fans I talk to they don’t tell much difference or don’t care to argue like you do. Sheesh lol
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Man, I miss that place.
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Same.

IMG_1962.jpeg
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The Daytona 500 is still prestigious, in spite of the fluke wins the past three years.

IMO, the biggest problem with the Daytona 500 right now is it's being carried by a network that literally does not give a **** about the race. Fox cares a lot more about the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum experiment.
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Problem with Daytona is the style of racing at the moment. Passing is too hard because there isn’t the space that existed 20-30 years ago in the draft.

It’s what blew me away about Indy this year, the slipstreams are just unbelievable in person
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The lack of buildup and Fox Sports treating it like any other race are much bigger problems.
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They need to get rid of 1 Atlanta race and bring back the pole winner/500/Clash winner-only Clash race @ Daytona the night before the Super Bowl on Saturday night to kick off Speedweeks.

I would say that the the LA Coliseum deserves a regular season race anyway until a new Auto Club Speedway short track can be built.
 
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