Lack of debris

kyle18fan said:
The fans pay for it all ...... every damned penny comes from the fans in one way or another. If Nascar displeases enough fans they will cease to exist.
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If only NASCAR races could be closed to the public, and shown only to carefully selected persons who sign strict non-disparagement clauses, their tender ears would never hear a critical word, and all would be right.
 
BobbyFord said:
I've watched one race in the past two years. If Richmond was the last race, I watched it. I couldn't tell you who is in what car if it changed from 2015, I'm still trying to catch up on that. I will not watch every race anymore. I expect I'll just watch short tracks and road courses, I haven't really decided yet, I guess it depends on what home projects I have going on. NASCAR isn't a priority for me anymore.
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Sounds like a glutton for punishment to me
 
StandOnIt said:
And they complain that there are too many commercials during the race (I was one) So Nascar comes up with a solution that gives the fans more viewing of the race, and improves the middle of the races. I'm completely convinced that Nascar fans are the worst for Nascar. It is no wonder they quit paying attention a long time ago.
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Wheres the numbers that show more TV time of racing is up compared to previous years?
 
StandOnIt said:
And they complain that there are too many commercials during the race (I was one) So Nascar comes up with a solution that gives the fans more viewing of the race, and improves the middle of the races. I'm completely convinced that Nascar fans are the worst for Nascar. It is no wonder they quit paying attention a long time ago.
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Nascar came up with a way to try and force folks to watch commercials ........ I fast forward "side by side" commercials because, well ......... they are commercials
 
ChexOrWrex said:
When they first announced stages I was hoping it would just be a record of positions taken at X lap intervals without stopping the race.
Nope. It was more than I feared :(
Oh well.
The “we cant do commercials only under stages and yellow flags” excuse is BS. Soccer doesn't go to commercial at all during play because it’s a continuous sport. No reason they cannot do the same with NASCAR considering that the sport is already a rolling billboard.
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Most levels of soccer command much larger markets than NASCAR. Its ability to dictate to TV leaves the NFL in the dust.
Stock cars may be rolling billboards, but that doesn't put any money in the networks' pockets.
BobbyFord said:
“Stage racing” is EXACTLY the same thing as a fake caution. Somehow the masses feel it’s more palatable.
Neither passes the smell test, for me.
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It's not exactly the same thing. With the stages, at least teams and fans know when the caution is coming. You can certainly make a case that stages are still race manipulation, but I'd rather know when the strings are going to be pulled as opposed to waiting and wondering.
 
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Stage racing is great, I think they should 4 stages instead of 3.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Many on here think NASCAR is already in Stage 4.
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Thats good with me. I cant remember one single time from my first race until today where me and my friends argued about rules or procedures for racing. We love racing are glad to have it.
 
I think this subject is black and white as the drivers openly spoke of bogus debris cautions and anyone that has watched Nascar for any length of time has to know they managed races through the yellow.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I think this subject is black and white as the drivers openly spoke of bogus debris cautions and anyone that has watched Nascar for any length of time has to know they managed races through the yellow.
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You mean the drivers who scream at NASCAR that debris is on the track? Puh lease
 
Spotter22 said:
You mean the drivers who scream at NASCAR that debris is on the track? Puh lease
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I can understand drivers lying about debris when they are on the track and need a caution but why lie in mid-week interviews? How does it benefit drivers to say that stages and the late great caution clock have taken the place of phony debris cautions?
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I can understand drivers lying about debris when they are on the track and need a caution but why lie in mid-week interviews? How does it benefit drivers to say that stages and the late great caution clock have taken the place of phony debris cautions?
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everybody knows the WWE is fake but they continue to post big numbers in popularity. But there are many fans that will argue until they are blue in the face that WWE is real. The short answer is what does it matter. Nascar had their reasons to have cautions and they aren't telling. The NEW format is different which is the topic of this thread. It's time to switch gears, it's in the past.
 
StandOnIt said:
everybody knows the WWE is fake but they continue to post big numbers in popularity. But there are many fans that will argue until they are blue in the face that WWE is real. The short answer is what does it matter. Nascar had their reasons to have cautions and they aren't telling. The NEW format is different which is the topic of this thread. It's time to switch gears, it's in the past.
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I sure hope you are wrong about people thinking the WWE is real as the thought is nothing short of terrifying.

Narrowly defined I thought this thread was about the lack of bogus cautions since the stages have been introduced and I completely agree with the premise as Nascar lost the bogus caution flags after the 2016 season.

IDK what reasons Nascar had for going to stages but if people want to talk about them and why they like or dislike them I am OK with it. I don't think that Nascar not giving reasons for doing something is the litmus test for discussion.
 
NASCAR used to use unnecessary cautions to suit their purposes, and it was shady and wrong. Those who spoke out against it were right to do so, and those who buried their heads in the sand weren't helping at all. NASCAR has stopped doing that for now. That's good, and should be commended while not forgetting the precedent set in the past.
 
gnomesayin said:
NASCAR used to use unnecessary cautions to suit their purposes, and it was shady and wrong. Those who spoke out against it were right to do so, and those who buried their heads in the sand weren't helping at all. NASCAR has stopped doing that for now. That's good, and should be commended while not forgetting the precedent set in the past.
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If you followed to the race threads, the majority give credos to Nascar letting the races go to the end..the public has a short memory
 
gnomesayin said:
I agree that stages were essentially a replacement for debris cautions, as empirically shown by this evidence, and also was an evolution of the rejected caution clock experiment. The difference between designated stage breaks and entertainment debris cautions is the lack of lying. I am no fan and never will be, but at least there is that.
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Another silver lining is that Nascar races today have much less time spent coasting around logging laps. For most of Nascar's 70-year history, you've never seen those on the highlight reels, but most races had quite a bit of it. Getting rid of most of that is a big improvement, IMO.

I'll also add that stage points create a mechanism that permits the best teams to pull out a meaningful points gap over their less successful competitors. Admittedly, the mechanism is complex and could be accomplished in other, more straightforward ways, but we've never had that either.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I can understand drivers lying about debris when they are on the track and need a caution but why lie in mid-week interviews? How does it benefit drivers to say that stages and the late great caution clock have taken the place of phony debris cautions?
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Maybe the driver didnt know why the caution flag flew. Maybe he didnt see what others saw? Maybe he was in the lead and thought they didnt need to throw a caution in his opinion. The greatest reduction to cautions is because of the damage clock and cars not returning and scattering stuff all over the track.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Another silver lining is that Nascar races today have much less time spent coasting around logging laps. For most of Nascar's 70-year history, you've never seen those on the highlight reels, but most races had quite a bit of it. Getting rid of most of that is a big improvement, IMO.

I'll also add that stage points create a mechanism that permits the best teams to pull out a meaningful points gap over their less successful competitors. Admittedly, the mechanism is complex and could be accomplished in other, more straightforward ways, but we've never had that either.
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That is part of it. The stages give the fans at home more race viewing time and set times to go to the refridge or the bathroom without missing any action. The lack of chaos of trying to get the commercial stakeholders messages in has lessened. The TV partners have a much smaller chance of the nightmare that the race will run long and run into their other programming occuring.
 
gnomesayin said:
NASCAR used to use unnecessary cautions to suit their purposes, and it was shady and wrong. Those who spoke out against it were right to do so, and those who buried their heads in the sand weren't helping at all. NASCAR has stopped doing that for now. That's good, and should be commended while not forgetting the precedent set in the past.
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Well said and I think your post hits several nails squarely on the head.
StandOnIt said:
That is part of it. The stages give the fans at home more race viewing time and set times to go to the refridge or the bathroom without missing any action. The lack of chaos of trying to get the commercial stakeholders messages in has lessened. The TV partners have a much smaller chance of the nightmare that the race will run long and run into their other programming occuring.
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Do you have any stats that show that stages give fans more race viewing time or is it something that is totally obvious or just a gut feeling? The reason I ask is I can't tell due to the use of the DVR. Another thing I like about the DVR is you don't have to wait for specific times to get a snack or use the bathroom as you just hit pause.
I have not seen any stats on the length of races but they definitely need to decrease and not calling bogus cautions is one way to help accomplish it.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
Do you have any stats that show that stages give fans more race viewing time or is it something that is totally obvious or just a gut feeling? The reason I ask is I can't tell due to the use of the DVR. Another thing I like about the DVR is you don't have to wait for specific times to get a snack or use the bathroom as you just hit pause.

I have not seen any stats on the length of races but they definitely need to decrease and not calling bogus cautions is one way to help accomplish it.
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O/T
Here ya go, look it up yourself I already know
http://www.cawsnjaws.com/
 
I was curious, that site is a very useful resource.

2018 Richmond stats (stages):

Race and Commercial Breakdown of the 2018 Toyota Owners 400
Total number of commercials: 134
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 62
Number of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 109
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 56
Number of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials during race broadcast (split-screen): 25
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 16
Number of times Fox utilized ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials during this broadcast: 4
Total number of brief promos of products/services during the race broadcast (including company logos ‘floating’ in corners of the screen): 215
Start time to record race/commercial periods: 6:30 PM
End time to record race/commercial periods: 9:54 PM
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 204
Minutes of race broadcast: 160
Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 44
Minutes of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials (split-screen): 9
Number of missed restarts: 0
Number of ‘mystery cautions’ (debris not shown): 0
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2016 Richmond stats (no stages):

Race and Commercial Breakdown of the 2016 Toyota Owners 400
Total number of commercials: 112
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 52
Number of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 93
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 49
Number of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials during race broadcast (split-screen): 19
Total number of companies or entities advertised: 12
Number of times Fox utilized ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials during this broadcast: 4
Total number of brief promos of products/services during the race broadcast (including company logos ‘floating’ in corners of the screen): 83
Start time to record race/commercial periods: 1:00 PM
End time to record race/commercial periods: 4:22 PM
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 202
Minutes of race broadcast: 160
Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 42
Minutes of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials (split-screen): 9
Number of missed restarts: 0
Number of ‘mystery cautions’ (debris not shown): 2 1 described, but not shown
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I see no evidence to back the claim made about more race viewing time, though there is obviously evidence of the new lack of mystery debris cautions.
 
with the stages, many of the commercials are shown during the breaks in the cautions, not while the race is being shown
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Your links show that this past Richmond race with stages had 134 commercials while the 2016 race without stages had 112.
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Yes, it would seem to support the notion that the stage breaks were a way to shoehorn additional needed commercials into the broadcast without losing more race broadcast time. Not gaining race time, just not losing more.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, it would seem to support the notion that the stage breaks were a way to shoehorn additional needed commercials into the broadcast without losing more race broadcast time. Not gaining race time, just not losing more.
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While also losing green flag racing time with premeditated stoppages. They have effectively shortened the race and added more commercials.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
While also losing green flag racing time with premeditated stoppages. They have effectively shortened the race and added more commercials.
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Good point. I wouldn't have been against actually shortening the races for real if deemed necessary, nor am I living a fantasy world in which it isn't economically necessary for NASCAR to allow the networks to deliver more advertising. However, it's important in discussions to stick to the facts and not just repeat PR BS spin. They needed to deliver more commercials, and found a way to do it that has been mostly accepted. It wasn't a wonderful gift to the fans and their wishes.
 
Here is the breakdown, you fellows make up what you want. There are two stages in there that probably has 6 to 8 minutes each on the right side in the equation that commercials are shown.

upload_2018-4-25_16-17-42.png
upload_2018-4-25_16-18-27.png
 
StandOnIt said:
with the stages, many of the commercials are shown during the breaks in the cautions, not while the race is being shown
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I see more sponsors advertising during the race (62-52) Ya see, I'm a glass half full kinda guy.
 
gnomesayin said:
Good point. I wouldn't have been against actually shortening the races for real if deemed necessary, nor am I living a fantasy world in which it isn't economically necessary for NASCAR to allow the networks to deliver more advertising. However, it's important in discussions to stick to the facts and not just repeat PR BS spin. They needed to deliver more commercials, and found a way to do it that has been mostly accepted. It wasn't a wonderful gift to the fans and their wishes.
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Fits in line with college and NFL football.

If you attend enough games you figure out there is a network referee that steps out onto the field when it is time for a TV timeout. It gets awfully annoying. You’d never know it from sitting on the sofa at home.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, it would seem to support the notion that the stage breaks were a way to shoehorn additional needed commercials into the broadcast without losing more race broadcast time. Not gaining race time, just not losing more.
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Why do the networks need to add more commercial time to race broadcasts? Is it because 30 second commercial time slots cost less than in previous years so more need to be sold to make up the shortfall? Something else entirely?
 
Whatever much longer race is being used in the above side-by-side, 193 minutes of race broadcast time is a slightly lower percentage of 250 total minutes than 160 race minutes is of 204 total, but extremely close. 77.2% vs. 78.4%. I cited the races used in my comparison.
 
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