Lack of debris

gnomesayin said:
Whatever much longer race is being used in the above side-by-side, 193 minutes of race broadcast time is a slightly lower percentage of 250 total minutes than 160 race minutes is of 204 total, but extremely close. 77.2% vs. 78.4%. I cited the races used in my comparison.
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but you forgot that information;)
 
2016 Texas spring race # of commercials: 113

2018 Texas spring race # of commercials: 127

2016 autoclub 400 commercials: 104

2018 autoclub 400 commercials: 116


Your “stages allow less commercials and more racing on tv time” theory is falling apart.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
2016 Texas spring race # of commercials: 113

2018 Texas spring race # of commercials: 127

2016 autoclub 400 commercials: 104

2018 autoclub 400 commercials: 116


Your “stages allow less commercials and more racing on tv time” theory is falling apart.
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it isn't the number bud :D it is the minutes..the minutes.

Considering there are two stage breaks that are around 5 to 8 minutes in length my point has always been that the stages show more of the race
2018
here is what gnome left out Richmond to Richmond
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 204
Minutes of race broadcast: 160
Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 44
Minutes of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials (split-screen): 9

2016
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 251

Minutes of race broadcast: 211

Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 40

Minutes of 'Side-by-Side' commercials (split-screen): 7

Number of missed restarts: 0

Number of 'mystery cautions' (debris not shown): 0

Total race brdcst time 211 Total comm. brdcst time 40

To note: how much of the 2016 broadcast was the cars following the pace car compared to what they are doing this year. I say overall more racing will be shown this year also.
 

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Thank you, gentlemen, for the info as the idea of stages coming into play in order to provide the fans at home with more green flag racing did not past the smell test but I could not be sure.
 
StandOnIt said:
it isn't the number bud :D it is the minutes..the minutes.

Considering there are two stage breaks that are around 5 to 8 minutes in length my point has always been that the stages show more of the race
2018
here is what gnome left out Richmond to Richmond
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 204
Minutes of race broadcast: 160
Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 44
Minutes of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials (split-screen): 9

2016
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 251

Minutes of race broadcast: 211

Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 40

Minutes of 'Side-by-Side' commercials (split-screen): 7

Number of missed restarts: 0

Number of 'mystery cautions' (debris not shown): 0

Total race brdcst time 211 Total comm. brdcst time 40

To note: how much of the 2016 broadcast was the cars following the pace car compared to what they are doing this year. I say overall more racing will be shown this year also.
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StandOnIt said:
it isn't the number bud :D it is the minutes..the minutes.

Considering there are two stage breaks that are around 5 to 8 minutes in length my point has always been that the stages show more of the race
2018
here is what gnome left out Richmond to Richmond
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 204
Minutes of race broadcast: 160
Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 44
Minutes of ‘Side-by-Side’ commercials (split-screen): 9

2016
Total minutes of complete race broadcast: 251

Minutes of race broadcast: 211

Minutes of traditional commercials (not split-screen): 40

Minutes of 'Side-by-Side' commercials (split-screen): 7

Number of missed restarts: 0

Number of 'mystery cautions' (debris not shown): 0

Total race brdcst time 211 Total comm. brdcst time 40

To note: how much of the 2016 broadcast was the cars following the pace car compared to what they are doing this year. I say overall more racing will be shown this year also.
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I can't prove it but I think the stage breaks are always much closer to 10 minutes than 5. The reason is I normally deploy my 30 second advance button 20 times and it normally is just a hair long.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I can't prove it but I think the stage breaks are always much closer to 10 minutes than 5. The reason is I normally deploy my 30 second advance button 20 times and it normally is just a hair long.
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that would mean even more commercials were shown during the break and even more racing than I estimated. I never time them as I am looking at the current leader board on the web while they are playing and checking tweets from reporters at the race.
 
I didn't leave anything out. Holy crap man. It's right there in my post. I compared 2018 spring Richmond to 2016 spring Richmond. You compared 2018 spring Richmond to the much longer 2016 fall Texas on a different network, while refusing to say which race it was.

It's been fun, carry on.
 
StandOnIt said:
that would mean even more commercials were shown during the break and even more racing than I estimated. I never time them as I am looking at the current leader board on the web while they are playing and checking tweets from reporters at the race.
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I have no agenda so if there are more commercials than before that is fine with me as all I care about is what the truth of the matter is. I thought this was all about Nascar showing more green flag racing since stages have been implemented?
 
gnomesayin said:
I didn't leave anything out. Holy crap man. It's right there in my post. I compared 2018 spring Richmond to 2016 spring Richmond. You compared 2018 spring Richmond to the much longer 2016 fall Texas on a different network, while refusing to say which race it was.

It's been fun, carry on.
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what you mistakenly left out was the number of minutes that I posted for both richmond's in post 85. I mistakenly took the top race of the 2016 post on Jayski/ which was 2016 Homestead and 2018 Cwsjaws which was the last Richmond. Post 85 has 2016, 2018 Richmond total minutes of commercials. Note: it doesn't show how many minutes of commercials shown during the two stage breaks, but even conservatively using 10 to 12 minutes of non racing in addition to not having all of the cautions pace car following of the 2016 era more racing is being shown in my book, I'm sure opinions will differ, so be it. I'll go with the math.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
Thank you, gentlemen, for the info as the idea of stages coming into play in order to provide the fans at home with more green flag racing did not past the smell test but I could not be sure.
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Here is what I've seen:
1. The percentage of time spent in ad breaks is about flat, current versus 2016. I've checked numerous weeks; it has always been about the same in % of minutes.

2. There are four long ad breaks added, two at the end of stage 1 and two at the end of stage 2.

3. Therefore, there are significantly fewer minutes lost to "other ad breaks." That is my smell test... that the advertising situation has not gotten worse as many people claim, and is actually a bit better. What analysis do you have that is different?

4. I agree ads are not the fundamental reason for stages.
 
I appreciate your perspective and taking the time to respond. One of the issues brought up was more green flag racing being shown under the stage system as opposed the the phony debris period. Do you think green flag race coverage is more, less or negligible?
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I appreciate your perspective and taking the time to respond. One of the issues brought up was more green flag racing being shown under the stage system as opposed the the phony debris period. Do you think green flag race coverage is more, less or negligible?
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When total ad breaks are flat, but yellow ad breaks after stages are way up, then green flag ad breaks will be down. What analysis do you have that is different?
 
LewTheShoe said:
3. Therefore, there are significantly fewer minutes lost to "other ad breaks." That is my smell test... that the advertising situation has not gotten worse as many people claim, and is actually a bit better. What analysis do you have that is different?
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What I'm looking for is some evidence in the data that shows an increase in the minutes of racing broadcast category as a percentage of the total broadcast minutes. I'm not seeing it yet for comparable races. I can see the logic in your extrapolation, but why is it not showing up in that number, at least in the races I've looked at?

I don't endorse some of his other rhetorical statements about NASCAR, but @Acs posted an explanation a while back of the purpose of the stages from the broadcasting perspective that I consider knowledgeable and accurate. They were largely about providing the networks more time certainty and the ability to air longer blocks of ads without negative audience reaction.

I am not convinced that it has actually provided significantly more green flag racing broadcast time or fewer interruptions to that. That matter will be further clouded by the reality that there have been fewer cautions and more long green flag runs in 2018 than in 2016 and prior. I am convinced that the networks strongly desired more opportunities to deliver advertising content, some of which has been accomplished through the notable increase in on-screen graphic ads, and some in the stage breaks.

Also, I suspect that it is fair to say the stage breaks tend to prevent any further loss of broadcast racing time. I don't think this justifies them from a competition standpoint in the slightest, but I believe it is practical reality.
 
gnomesayin said:
Yes, it would seem to support the notion that the stage breaks were a way to shoehorn additional needed commercials into the broadcast without losing more race broadcast time. Not gaining race time, just not losing more.
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that isn't what you were saying here. Maybe your race time is different than what I have been saying about seeing more of the racing. As Lew says and the math the total commercial times have been pretty much the same number of minutes. The change has been that many are shown during the stage breaks
 
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The number of cautions in 2018 (6.5) is roughly the same as through this point in 2016 (7.1)...wouldn't they also have been airing commercials during those cautions two years ago? Except, they're now airing commercials during stage cautions and not debris cautions.
 
LewTheShoe said:
When total ad breaks are flat, but yellow ad breaks after stages are way up, then green flag ad breaks will be down. What analysis do you have that is different?
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I don't have any analysis as it is not something I thought of until this evening. I don't have any dog in the fight seeing I don't watch the races live but was intrigued by some of the claims made. I don't think I am allowed to say what those claims were and for that I apologize.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The number of cautions in 2018 (6.5) is roughly the same as through this point in 2016 (7.1)...wouldn't they also have been airing commercials during those cautions two years ago? Except, they're now airing commercials during stage cautions and not debris cautions.
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you seeing anybody complaining profusely about commercials during debris cautions on the racing threads lately? And you haven't said that your figures aren't counting that two of those 6.5's are stage cautions.
 
Me - I don't think there's been any notable difference in the coverage, except that it's more structured in that you know when the commercials will air. Instead of "Ok, when will the next BK car grenade or the next debris caution come out?" it's "Ok, the stage ends in eight laps and then they'll go to break."
 
StandOnIt said:
you seeing anybody complaining profusely about commercials during debris cautions on the racing threads lately? And you haven't said that your figures aren't counting that two of those 6.5's are stage cautions.
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But if the number of cautions are the same, and the number of commercial minutes are the same, wouldn't the broadcast/commercial split be the same? Unless the broadcasters were previously staying on-air during cautions, which I honestly don't remember if they did or didn't.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
I appreciate your perspective and taking the time to respond. One of the issues brought up was more green flag racing being shown under the stage system as opposed the the phony debris period. Do you think green flag race coverage is more, less or negligible?
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I am not certain about green flag racing, but white flag and checkered flag has not changed and is at 100%. :)
 
FLRacingFan said:
The number of cautions in 2018 (6.5) is roughly the same as through this point in 2016 (7.1)...wouldn't they also have been airing commercials during those cautions two years ago? Except, they're now airing commercials during stage cautions and not debris cautions.
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This includes stage cautions yes? 4.5 'natural' cautions is significantly less than 7.1. Though I acknowledge your point about the rough equivalence of stage cautions and debris cautions. It is remarkable to look through the data and see how many races had exactly two mystery debris cautions, LOL.
 
A manufactured break in competition, however you slice it, is a fake break. If I’m getting screwed it doesn’t matter to me if you let me know in advance when it will happen, I’m still getting screwed.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The number of cautions in 2018 (6.5) is roughly the same as through this point in 2016 (7.1)...wouldn't they also have been airing commercials during those cautions two years ago? Except, they're now airing commercials during stage cautions and not debris cautions.
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What you say seems totally logical however experience has shown me that even the most rudimentary of topics can completely take on a life of its own.
So after all is said and done it seems that not a whole lot has changed much except they have reallocated when commercials are run, one set of artificial race stoppages has been replaced by another and there is no more green flag race coverage in 2018 than in 2016. I will be able to sleep like a baby tonight secure in this knowledge.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The number of cautions in 2018 (6.5) is roughly the same as through this point in 2016 (7.1)...wouldn't they also have been airing commercials during those cautions two years ago? Except, they're now airing commercials during stage cautions and not debris cautions.
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reading the article posted at the front of the topic, 7.8/8 cautions are the average before the stages went into effect. I have no idea how many debris cautions they have now. Not many. The point isn't about that completely, it is the lessening of the number of commercials they cover the racing with. There are markedly less debris cautions interrupting the flow of the race compared to before. The minutes are the same but more racing is shown.
there have been eight debris yellows in 2017, which is on par with the average of 7.8 over the first 15 races in the 1990-2000 seasons. The 2016 season also marked a six-year low for debris yellows with 51.
 
StandOnIt said:
reading the article posted at the front of the topic, 7.8/8 cautions are the average before the stages went into effect. I have no idea how many debris cautions they have now. Not many. The point isn't about that completely, it is the lessening of the number of commercials they cover the racing with. There are markedly less debris cautions interrupting the flow of the race compared to before. The minutes are the same but more racing is shown.
there have been eight debris yellows in 2017, which is on par with the average of 7.8 over the first 15 races in the 1990-2000 seasons. The 2016 season also marked a six-year low for debris yellows with 51.
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In your opinion how many more minutes of green flag racing due to the implementation of stages? Would it be something like 30 seconds, 5 minutes or more? Interesting subject.
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
In your opinion how many more minutes of green flag racing due to the implementation of stages? Would it be something like 30 seconds, 5 minutes or more? Interesting subject.
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it isn't a whole hell of a lot minutes wise, ten minutes if I was to guess, the big difference is that the racing isn't interrupted with debris cautions especially in the closing laps and secondary during the race, the race is allowed to play out without as many interruptions. Drivers don't lay down in the middle of the race because there are the stages to race to for points in the top 10 places, breaks for commercials, better and more racing shown
 
gnomesayin said:
What I'm looking for is some evidence in the data that shows an increase in the minutes of racing broadcast category as a percentage of the total broadcast minutes. I'm not seeing it yet for comparable races. I can see the logic in your extrapolation, but why is it not showing up in that number, at least in the races I've looked at?

I don't endorse some of his other rhetorical statements about NASCAR, but @Acs posted an explanation a while back of the purpose of the stages from the broadcasting perspective that I consider knowledgeable and accurate. They were largely about providing the networks more time certainty and the ability to air longer blocks of ads without negative audience reaction.

I am not convinced that it has actually provided significantly more green flag racing broadcast time or fewer interruptions to that. That matter will be further clouded by the reality that there have been fewer cautions and more long green flag runs in 2018 than in 2016 and prior. I am convinced that the networks strongly desired more opportunities to deliver advertising content, some of which has been accomplished through the notable increase in on-screen graphic ads, and some in the stage breaks.

Also, I suspect that it is fair to say the stage breaks tend to prevent any further loss of broadcast racing time. I don't think this justifies them from a competition standpoint in the slightest, but I believe it is practical reality.
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This is what it’s like to look at the statistics and critically think through them.
 
gnomesayin said:
I didn't leave anything out. Holy crap man. It's right there in my post. I compared 2018 spring Richmond to 2016 spring Richmond. You compared 2018 spring Richmond to the much longer 2016 fall Texas on a different network, while refusing to say which race it was.

It's been fun, carry on.
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X05h3Dh.gif
 
AtomicPunk55 said:
In your opinion how many more minutes of green flag racing due to the implementation of stages? Would it be something like 30 seconds, 5 minutes or more? Interesting subject.
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The stages werent created for solely for limiting green flag commercials, the MAIN reason was for presenting stage points and getting the drivers to be more aggressive and race instead of waiting until the end of the race. Mission accomplished and the commercial aspect is irrelevant.
 
Spotter22 said:
The stages werent created for solely for limiting green flag commercials, the MAIN reason was for presenting stage points and getting the drivers to be more aggressive and race instead of waiting until the end of the race. Mission accomplished and the commercial aspect is irrelevant.
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...and to create more "drama" with another unnecessary restart.
 
Spotter22 said:
The stages werent created for solely for limiting green flag commercials, the MAIN reason was for presenting stage points and getting the drivers to be more aggressive and race instead of waiting until the end of the race. Mission accomplished and the commercial aspect is irrelevant.
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I don't have a clue what the main reason was, but Nascar said it got together with the stakeholders, those being sponsors drivers, owners. track operators, television and radio broadcast partners, automakers and others.
 
gnomesayin said:
This includes stage cautions yes? 4.5 'natural' cautions is significantly less than 7.1. Though I acknowledge your point about the rough equivalence of stage cautions and debris cautions. It is remarkable to look through the data and see how many races had exactly two mystery debris cautions, LOL.
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Yeah, 6.5 including stages. Stage cautions are up...debris cautions are down. It about evens out. So "racing shown" should be about the same...unless I am missing something. The only way I can imagine that figure would change would be if they were previously staying on air through caution periods prior to 2017...right?
 
FLRacingFan said:
Yeah, 6.5 including stages. Stage cautions are up...debris cautions are down. It about evens out. So "racing shown" should be about the same...unless I am missing something. The only way I can imagine that figure would change would be if they were previously staying on air through caution periods prior to 2017...right?
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I haven't been able to find the 6.5 figure. comparing that to the 8 average I don't see how that even's out
 
Spotter22 said:
and the commercial aspect is irrelevant.
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Load of malarky and nothing more than opinion. NASCAR has made it known that stakeholders have been givin more power over the direction of the sport the last couple of years. This certainly includes the idea for stage racing and the opportunity to push additional TV spots, which is blatantly occurring.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Yeah, 6.5 including stages. Stage cautions are up...debris cautions are down. It about evens out. So "racing shown" should be about the same...unless I am missing something. The only way I can imagine that figure would change would be if they were previously staying on air through caution periods prior to 2017...right?
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according to racing reference, for 10 races, the caution average is 5.9 including stages. compared to an average of 8 and all of them break into the flow of the race compared to 4 that do now, I personally don't get your point. Am I missing something here?
 
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