FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Max is just insane though. Took a car with a bit of RF wing damage to victory at a high speed counterclockwise circuit. Wow.
Las Vegas Grand Prix (2023)
- Thread starter HoneyBadger
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DewChaser988
NASCAR fan since 1998
Also, why doesn't LVMS do this
Mispeedway15
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I don’t understand why we couldn’t just make a track since we’re in the middle of desert. Could’ve been an awesome collab with NASCAR on the outside of town & had a lot of nice elevation changes
virtualbalboa
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Decent enough race once everything got calmed down. Can't help but think that Max managed to benefit significantly from first running a guy wide and then by producing a caution banging into someone else in an overtake and getting a timely caution to replace his wing and change some tires. But whatever, that's modern F1 I guess.
Speedbowl14
Ryan Preece and short tracks
The RACE was what the "event" needed... for sure!
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Surprise, surprise, surprise............ no Twilight Zone this weekend. I thought for sure it would all go south, but it seems like it was actually ok.
They got the whole race in, and no one got killed. The sun still came up in the East this morning, so most of the unhappiness seems to be unfounded. I have not seen the race yet, but it sounds like it wasn't any more horrible than the standard Red Bull ass whooping.
People were hating this race before the track was even finished. I think what really happened this weekend was we all got sick of the hype, and some responded to that by simply piling on to every little problem, perceived problem, or made-up problem as the end of humanity. After that it was internet cancel culture with everyone wanting their pound of flesh. Yes, this is going on at other forums too, and much worse than it is here.
Not that exploding manhole covers was a little problem, and it certainly wasn't merely perceived. That was a huge problem, but I have yet to see anyone give the organizers credit for getting that fixed so quickly. Honestly, all the badmouthing should have stopped right after that. We want racing to succeed, right? We don't want racing to fail, do we? If LVGP went down in flames, it could be another 40 years before we have another one.
I think if you took the FP1 and FP2 out of the mix, there was not all that much to be unhappy about, though admittedly that was enough to feed the butthurt machine. You can't race when the track isn't safe and you can't have all those people there after security goes home. You can say they should have planned for something like this, but I'll bet none of you were predicting exploding manhole covers before the weekend started. It was just extremely unlucky, and as astute racing fans, we should have understood that. It's racing. Snot happens. We've seen problems like this before at Spa, and Indianapolis, but great venues. As a fan, you just have to roll with it and hope the next race is better. Liberty are no fools, and all of this stuff will be ironed out by next year, but first they have to take care of the folks who missed P1 and P2. You can't burn people like that when they are spending $1600 just to get in.
Plenty of new street venues get off to a rough start, and this one isn't any different. The difference this time is as soon as they had a problem, they jumped on it on it instantly and fixed it. There we no more problems with the circuit the rest of the weekend that I heard of, but once the butthurt had set in there was no turning back. We should all have been a little understanding, because after all, in the end we got a decent race with no catastrophes. Sure it could have been better, but they put a cap on the clownyness and got the event off.
Looks like that lawsuit could involve 35,000 people, so imagine what the eventual payout could look like. I'm pretty sure we don't want racing to take that kind of hit considering it could happen again on any street course, especially a new one. Indycar could be next, or IMSA. They just need to pay everyone off quietly and come out the good guys while burying all the butthurt. In the end, the only thing that counts now is takig care of the customers. Settle it, take the beating and hope all this stuff is forgotten before next year.
The worst thing I read about or saw from the weekend was security screaming at people who were moving too slowly on an overpass. You can't treat people who are paying the bills like that. They need to fix that right now.
Overall, the execution was not perfect, but it's not like Spa 2022 or Indianapolis 05. Those are that standards for a clown show, and Vegas doesn't meat that standard. Weve had far worse, and let's just be glad it race went well enough to justify it continuing, and best f all only Carlos (and maybe Ocon stood to have gotten hurt. I guess there is also a possibility that cover could have gone into a crowd, so let's just be grateful we had an ok race without a lot of destruction or further controversy.
Next year, though, they need to review the TV camera angles and make sure they showcase to locale. In all, maybe not what we were hoping for, but at least we got a relatively clean, full distance Grand Prix with no protests or other reasons to be unhappy. Next year will be better.
I guess the biggest problem is they pissed everyone off. If they can appease the practice crowd, I'll imagine next year's event will go a lot smoother.
Again, I was so wiped out last night I couldn't stay up until 3 or 4 to see it live, but it's on DVR.
They got the whole race in, and no one got killed. The sun still came up in the East this morning, so most of the unhappiness seems to be unfounded. I have not seen the race yet, but it sounds like it wasn't any more horrible than the standard Red Bull ass whooping.
People were hating this race before the track was even finished. I think what really happened this weekend was we all got sick of the hype, and some responded to that by simply piling on to every little problem, perceived problem, or made-up problem as the end of humanity. After that it was internet cancel culture with everyone wanting their pound of flesh. Yes, this is going on at other forums too, and much worse than it is here.
Not that exploding manhole covers was a little problem, and it certainly wasn't merely perceived. That was a huge problem, but I have yet to see anyone give the organizers credit for getting that fixed so quickly. Honestly, all the badmouthing should have stopped right after that. We want racing to succeed, right? We don't want racing to fail, do we? If LVGP went down in flames, it could be another 40 years before we have another one.
I think if you took the FP1 and FP2 out of the mix, there was not all that much to be unhappy about, though admittedly that was enough to feed the butthurt machine. You can't race when the track isn't safe and you can't have all those people there after security goes home. You can say they should have planned for something like this, but I'll bet none of you were predicting exploding manhole covers before the weekend started. It was just extremely unlucky, and as astute racing fans, we should have understood that. It's racing. Snot happens. We've seen problems like this before at Spa, and Indianapolis, but great venues. As a fan, you just have to roll with it and hope the next race is better. Liberty are no fools, and all of this stuff will be ironed out by next year, but first they have to take care of the folks who missed P1 and P2. You can't burn people like that when they are spending $1600 just to get in.
Plenty of new street venues get off to a rough start, and this one isn't any different. The difference this time is as soon as they had a problem, they jumped on it on it instantly and fixed it. There we no more problems with the circuit the rest of the weekend that I heard of, but once the butthurt had set in there was no turning back. We should all have been a little understanding, because after all, in the end we got a decent race with no catastrophes. Sure it could have been better, but they put a cap on the clownyness and got the event off.
Looks like that lawsuit could involve 35,000 people, so imagine what the eventual payout could look like. I'm pretty sure we don't want racing to take that kind of hit considering it could happen again on any street course, especially a new one. Indycar could be next, or IMSA. They just need to pay everyone off quietly and come out the good guys while burying all the butthurt. In the end, the only thing that counts now is takig care of the customers. Settle it, take the beating and hope all this stuff is forgotten before next year.
The worst thing I read about or saw from the weekend was security screaming at people who were moving too slowly on an overpass. You can't treat people who are paying the bills like that. They need to fix that right now.
Overall, the execution was not perfect, but it's not like Spa 2022 or Indianapolis 05. Those are that standards for a clown show, and Vegas doesn't meat that standard. Weve had far worse, and let's just be glad it race went well enough to justify it continuing, and best f all only Carlos (and maybe Ocon stood to have gotten hurt. I guess there is also a possibility that cover could have gone into a crowd, so let's just be grateful we had an ok race without a lot of destruction or further controversy.
Next year, though, they need to review the TV camera angles and make sure they showcase to locale. In all, maybe not what we were hoping for, but at least we got a relatively clean, full distance Grand Prix with no protests or other reasons to be unhappy. Next year will be better.
I guess the biggest problem is they pissed everyone off. If they can appease the practice crowd, I'll imagine next year's event will go a lot smoother.
Again, I was so wiped out last night I couldn't stay up until 3 or 4 to see it live, but it's on DVR.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
It's too dilapidated to even fix up, but in the late 60s they had Stardust raceway, which was a great venue. It's been done before, and they could have probably restored Stardust or even built a new facility for what Liberty spent. They were just trying to create another event with a Monoco vibe, and while they failed a little there, I think they will get it right. Not a horrible failure considering it was all brand new. They got thrown a bad curve, but they made the most out of it and it's wasn't all that bad. Good things don't come easy.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Here's the highlight package. It doesn't look like it was a bad race.
Naitch
NASCAR needs a driver's union
It felt like a Rick Allen call.
A lot of this race felt like a NASCAR race and that’s not necessarily a bad thing and I think it shows how much better things could look with competent TV presentation. Verstappen getting behind early because of a penalty and coming through the field (and even getting a NASCAR like lucky caution) was a compelling enough narrative. There was also the underlying narrative of Verstappen not quite having the car to beat early on but overcoming that to win.
As a NASCAR fan, I want our sanctioning body and broadcast partners to learn from this.
F1 also did a hell of a job recovering from a train wreck of a weekend.
DewChaser988
NASCAR fan since 1998
This
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
As long as they make some major organizational changes next year I’m very okay with this being an annual event on the calendar. I’d much rather keep this than Miami, which is neither good nor bad, it just is. But I guess they’ll both be around for a long while given their contracts.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I don’t think the start incident wound up being that consequential by the end of things; Leclerc caught and passed Max just before pits began anyways. Russell took the blame for the other incident and said he had no idea Max was there and was why he turned in like that. I thought it was a bit ambitious from Max live as well but on replay George just slammed the door shut.
They didn’t swap out the nose and Max carried on with the damage:
Speedbowl14
Ryan Preece and short tracks
This month's gambling revenue for the state should be revealed at the end of December. That'll determine what's the future for this event.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Looks like Sergio has clinched 2nd in the championship and it's only 4 points between Mercedes and Ferrari in the constructor's.
It's a 10-year contract, so the course isn't going anywhere. Just a matter of the financials. Given that Liberty Media spent the better part of 540 million on the project, I surely think they'd do everything they can to get those full 10 years.
Now if they can get the cost of attendance closer to NASCAR levels than F1 levels, they'll get some traction.
PS I think that L1T1 incident was just hard racing. Even Max admitted that they both just got in there way too hot and went into a 4-wheel slide. I don't see where the penalty was really justified. But it did add to the overall excitement.
Now if they can get the cost of attendance closer to NASCAR levels than F1 levels, they'll get some traction.
PS I think that L1T1 incident was just hard racing. Even Max admitted that they both just got in there way too hot and went into a 4-wheel slide. I don't see where the penalty was really justified. But it did add to the overall excitement.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Anecdotally, a lot of the reporting post-race is that the biggest casinos and resorts along the Strip feel really good about how the week went. Caesars said they were full and MGM claimed record performance at several of their properties.
Next year should hopefully see a lot better communication and setup process in the run up to the event. Locals and small businesses being negatively impacted by that whole buildup is still not anything you ever want to see.
With as much engagement as there appeared to be this past week I think the U.S. TV figure is going to be a lot better than people think. I’m guessing above average and will take a stab at 1.4M (I could be very wrong!).
HoneyBadger
I love short track racing (Taylor's Version)
FIA, being an international organization, simply does not care about locals and it showed. Hopefully, having that HQ in Vegas and a permanent, year-round presence will help change that for next year.
There was one local TV report I saw on Twitter or YouTube about how people had to pay $40/night or more to park at their own apartment complex because of this race. Then there's the video of security confronting locals on public property where they had an absolute right to be. There was just so much of that, and the feedback I read on social from locals in Vegas was that it really made the city itself look like you weren't welcome unless you were a multimillionaire.
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
Hey, but Miami is really, really good considering it's a "street" venue. That have had two good races and no pissed off customers, and I like the circuit as well. Now that Liberty is calling the shots, every decision on venues is going to be all about the dollars, so Miami is probaby going to remain.
Going back to the cart era, the Houston track was so bumpy it actually broke the Audis, so they actually added a chicane mid weekend. San Jose was absolutely the most horrible street venue we have ever seen. The Dallas GP had the track coming apart all weekend. There are a lot more examples, I just can't remember them all. They even rescheduled Spa one year because there was some pavement issues, so they delayed the Michigan 500 because the then-new radials were acting up. No venue is immune to things like this going wrong, especially the new ones.
F1 used to have a rule that any new circuit had to race a smaller formula first to get approval, but that went away and now they can drive into a booby trap unimpeded. They really should have had a GT race or something before turning the F1 boys loose. No one knew until Carlos hit that thing, but it was a booby trap without a doubt.
I also saw a picture of the drain cover, and it had bits of concrete on it. If you had punted that into the stands, I'm sure someone could have gotten hurt, so thank God we avoided that. I doubt there is a way to check concrete for fatigue. Like who knew the downforce on these cars could pull concrete apart?
First, they lacked a little of due diligence, but after that it was just pure bad luck. If you take P1 ad 2 out of the mix, they almost had a perfect weekend. No big accidents, no one got hurt and the race was pretty good too.
Races have been cancelled/delayed before, so Vegas deserves a little break considering the logistics and how difficult it was to put the place together. Now the organizers will have a full year to iron out any more problems, so next year should be stellar.
Where Vegas needs to make it's first move now is to take care of the Thursday crowd, but if you consider that could involve 35,000 people, multiply that by 1/3 the cost of a 3 day past and you've got financial Armageddon. They are just going to have to take their beating and do better next year.
For all the discord about this event, yeah, practice sucked and waiting three hours in the cold just to be sent home sucked, but in the end we were all rewarded with a pretty decent GP. In the end it's racing and you never know how it is going to turn out Sometimes it's great and others you step in a smelly pile of poo. Liberty cleaned off their shoes and put on a great race anyway, so I don't think there is much worry the will get it right for next year. They just need to treat the people a bi better and this could be the next Monoco.
I don't think that can happen because they only have 10 years to recoup $540 million, so they have to get every penny they can. You're not going to do that with $50 tickets.
Except before Max had the unbeatable car he would routinely run people off the road, and I mean repeatedly. He even banged Botos off on a straight at the fastest part of Monza, and even got into it with Kimi (of all people) a few times. He cleaned it up last year and drove like a worthy champion, but it is worrying that the first time in two hears anyone has gotten alongside him, Max shoved him off.
virtualbalboa
driver of corey day bandwagon since 2022
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The long term success or failure of the race isn't anything that will be obvious to people today or even next week. Like others said - gambling receipts will be important. Not just because maybe Bellagio and Caesars Palace will have had bumper weekends, but because everyone else from the Station casinos to Gold Coast to Fremont might have had an absolutely horrible one. Locals can also make the race effectively impossible by voting in different people if they are unamused by the conflicts the race presents both in set up or for their businesses. I would caution anyone from having hard and fast takes one way or the other.
Having said that, there is zero chance the race will ever be "NASCAR priced". That is simply never happening.
Having said that, there is zero chance the race will ever be "NASCAR priced". That is simply never happening.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
This has next to nothing to do with the FIA. They’re the regulatory body, not the commercial body. This is all on F1/Liberty Media, who took on promotional and ownership responsibility for this event. But yes, it seems now they’re very cognizant of where they went wrong as far as engagement and communication with the locals and that should improve going forward. And in the future they won’t have the issue of spending six months paving and repaving and repaving again, so it should by default be less disruptive going forward. But when it comes to setup you can’t have people paying exorbitant parking fees just at their own apartment complex. WTH?
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I could live with or without Miami, but if money were truly no object there’s a number of races I’d rather have on the calendar than that one. It’s had a couple of respectable races for sure, but my expectations for a football parking lot event were also on the floor going in.
The lack of due diligence with regard to the circuit safety blew me away. I mean, drain/manhole covers have been an issue enough times in the last that you would’ve thought, due to the sheer volume of them at this circuit, they would’ve checked and double checked for good measure. But the track wasn’t formally approved until the morning before FP1, and apparently sending out the medical and safety car for reconnaissance laps was good enough to pass it. Obviously you can’t do full-fledged testing with ground effect cars at a street circuit but they cut it so close on timing that I doubt the inspection was as thorough as it could’ve been.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
The race averaged 1.312M viewers on ESPN, good for sixth-best on the season. Notably, the race outperformed all but three college football games in the 18-34 demographic.
Qualifying at 3 AM ET early Saturday also averaged 626k.
Really impressive imo.
www.sportsmediawatch.com
Qualifying at 3 AM ET early Saturday also averaged 626k.
Really impressive imo.
ESPN’s Live Telecast of Inaugural Formula 1 Las Vegas Grand Prix Attracts 1.3 Million Viewers at 1 a.m. ET; Most-Viewed F1 Race Since June
Despite it's early-morning starting time, the inaugural Formula 1 Las Vegas Grand Prix attracted 1.3 million viewers on ESPN
espnpressroom.com
Weekly sports ratings: Quieter week for pro, college football
Weekly sports ratings for the week ending November 19: the NFL had a quiet week by its standards, but still dominated.
www.sportsmediawatch.com
Speedbowl14
Ryan Preece and short tracks
I would be shocked if they had enough of the gambling uber elite to make up for the regular whales that I'm sure skipped this weekend. I checked most days in the week leading up to the race and each day hotel prices dropped to at or below regular weekend pricing. I think there was definitely a great struggle to fill the hotels at least at low-mid tier properties, despite what's being reported.
virtualbalboa
driver of corey day bandwagon since 2022
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I agree with you, but they're not going to sell $75/day tickets for this race at this stage. It would sooner not exist.
Charlie Spencer
Road courses and short tracks.
It's been 50 years since I lived in Vegas but as I recall, the high rollers hung out up on Fremont Street and left the Strip to the tourists. It would be nice to see a breakdown of revenue by gaming and lodging between the two prime areas, but I doubt one will be made public.
Speedbowl14
Ryan Preece and short tracks
It is broken down by area by the gaming commission. It's the opposite now too. Fremont is the discount option while the strip is where all the super high end resorts are. Fremont has slightly better odds than the strip to try and compete
Doc Austin
Back From The Dead
They have to recoup that $20 mil investment and they only have a 10 year contract. They aren't going to do that with cheap tickets.
Mispeedway15
Team Owner
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Yeah haha Fremont St is the cheap part. Golden Nugget and The D are great options for $1 roulette
HoneyBadger
I love short track racing (Taylor's Version)
The race averaged 1.312M viewers on ESPN, good for sixth-best on the season. Notably, the race outperformed all but three college football games in the 18-34 demographic.
Qualifying at 3 AM ET early Saturday also averaged 626k.
Really impressive imo.
ESPN’s Live Telecast of Inaugural Formula 1 Las Vegas Grand Prix Attracts 1.3 Million Viewers at 1 a.m. ET; Most-Viewed F1 Race Since June
Despite it's early-morning starting time, the inaugural Formula 1 Las Vegas Grand Prix attracted 1.3 million viewers on ESPNespnpressroom.com
Weekly sports ratings: Quieter week for pro, college football
Weekly sports ratings for the week ending November 19: the NFL had a quiet week by its standards, but still dominated.
This counts DVR data, right?
SpeedPagan
The iRacing Guru
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During the Las Vegas Grand Prix, Verstappen was issued a 5 second penalty after clashing with Leclerc on the first corner of the first lap.
How come there wasn't a time limit on when he had to serve the 5 second penalty or a command like "Come down pit row and serve your penalty under the green flag"?
It seems kinda odd that Red Bull and Verstappen was allowed to serve his penalty at his own leisure during a normal pit cycle. It sure as Hel didn't stop him from winning the race. IMHO, the racing stewards should've given him 2 laps to serve his 5 second penalty or get black flagged.
How come there wasn't a time limit on when he had to serve the 5 second penalty or a command like "Come down pit row and serve your penalty under the green flag"?
It seems kinda odd that Red Bull and Verstappen was allowed to serve his penalty at his own leisure during a normal pit cycle. It sure as Hel didn't stop him from winning the race. IMHO, the racing stewards should've given him 2 laps to serve his 5 second penalty or get black flagged.
Reck
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That’s not how it works in F1. When you get a 5 second penalty it is always served at your first stop if given in the initial phase. If given after pit stops, that time gets added to your total time.
Penalties in F1 need to be served during green flag action. If say a safety car came out before he did, he’d lose at least 30+ seconds depending on the track so in fact, the longer you stay out the bigger the risk of a safety car catching you out.
The only time the FIA forces you in to serve a penalty is if you have imminent damage that can put others at risk or when you break safety rules such as overtaking under double yellows, coming into the pits when it’s closed, etc. then you have 3 laps to come in.
Honestly, Red Bull could have avoided the penalty entirely if he had given the place back.
In the worst case, they will just disqualify you if you do something insane. Something I’ve not seeing done since I started watching.
Naitch
NASCAR needs a driver's union
When I was in Vegas a few months ago our Uber driver sent us over to Fremont and told us that that was where the action was. One of the guys in our group was disappointed to learn that "action" meant gambling and not the drinking party scene he wanted.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
The 5-second penalty is pretty much the only thing the stewards have in their bag anymore it seems. The last time I remember seeing anything else is when Hamilton sent Verstappen into the shadow realm at Silverstone ‘21 and got 10 seconds for it. But that just further proves how hard it is to really get a severe penalty for anything, because even that was pretty debatable at the time.
One of the funniest things I’ve seen all season is when Ocon stacked penalties at Bahrain when he got five seconds each for being over the line at the grid start, his crew serving only 4.6 seconds of the penalty on the first stop he was due to serve at, and then five seconds for speeding in the pits the same stop. No matter what it is they’ll give you five seconds, which is just ridiculous.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Same-day DVR viewing counts up through 3 AM so I don’t think it would’ve factored into the race viewership.
Reck
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Yeah this is very true isn’t it? They’ve gotten carried away with the 5 second penalties. They use it as a catch all.
They’re too Willie nilly with it specially when it comes to track limits.
donthaveanickname
Team Owner
Before pit speed limits were introduced in the 90s (which is crazy late when you think about it) the only penalties was a 10-second stop-and-go.
If I'm not mistaken this remained the most common penalty until the 2000s when it was replaced with the drive-through. I remember stop-and-go penalties still being used occasionally for causing major accidents in the early 2010s.
The 5-second-penalty was introduced in the mid-2010s because the drive-through was found too harsh for minor offenses like jump starts.
I don't think we've seen a drive-through since like 2019 though.
